What are you people doing?

[dwtsweeb]

Seriously, I read all these whine threads about how bad operatives are after surge and HS/AB nerf and granted I haven't played one before those nerfs (at 50), but I feel the class is in a good spot right now.

 

I just finished getting all Cent Gear (with a few champion pieces) and swapped out the enhancements on the cent armor with surge/crit/end enhancements and my stats are pretty good (only after a week of playing warzones). So i'm sitting at around 8% Expertise, 77% surge, and 37% crit (with my self buff). I also took BioChem and I have the level 48 reusable skill stim which adds more cunning and power.

 

Right now (after going from rank 10-35) there hasn't been one warzone game where I feel i'm underpowered. As of the last 5-6 ranks I've been consistently on the top of the damage meters, and there are not very many people that I can't kill within my stun duration (HS KD + Debilitate stun), even Battlemasters/War Heroes.

 

Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGhGodkrbfzZhr.1

 

 

 

TLDR; You should be able to play at a high level in 50 warzones, within 1 week of weeklies/dailies.

 

So I have to ask myself, did these nerfs just require a higher skill ceiling attainment, and all the pvp operative whiners are bad? Or am I missing something?

[LeperJack]

TLDR; You should be able to play at a high level in 50 warzones, within 1 week of weeklies/dailies.

 

So I have to ask myself, did these nerfs just require a higher skill ceiling attainment, and all the pvp operative whiners are bad? Or am I missing something?

 

1. Warzones are not the only endgame content.
   
2. Warzones are not a majority of endgame content.
   
3. Warzones are actually a miniscule portion of endgame content, and with more Operations slated for release and no new warzones announced in development, the relative portion of content that warzones are is shrinking every day.
   
4. All bullet points above apply to PvP as a whole as well.
   
5. This does not mean I am anti-PvP, I am simply pointing out that there is less game content in place for PvP in the entirety of the game than there is for one single starting planet.
   
6. Instead of trolling and telling us how bad we are and how we should learn to play, why don't you list ONE THING that an operative can do better than any other class.
   

[Cwild]

1. Warzones are not the only endgame content.
   
2. Warzones are not a majority of endgame content.
   
3. Warzones are actually a miniscule portion of endgame content, and with more Operations slated for release and no new warzones announced in development, the relative portion of content that warzones are is shrinking every day.
   
4. All bullet points above apply to PvP as a whole as well.
   
5. This does not mean I am anti-PvP, I am simply pointing out that there is less game content in place for PvP in the entirety of the game than there is for one single starting planet.
   
6. Instead of trolling and telling us how bad we are and how we should learn to play, why don't you list ONE THING that an operative can do better than any other class.
   

 

no they aren't the only endgame content...but the OP is talking about pvp...not pve, or questing, or raiding, or roleplaying....so stop with this endgame pve nonsense...there are other threads that talk about that....

[dwtsweeb]

I could care less about pve, that's not why I play this game. I was specifically addressing people complaining that they can't do anything SPECIFICALLY in WARZONES. I'm honestly curious what the people's gear and spec look like that have problems in WARZONES.

 

As far as things that operative can do better than any other class it really comes down to the ability to position yourself via stealth to gain advantages. Stealth is amazingly useful in ALL warzones for many applications. Also, operative is one of the few if not the only class that can kill someone within stun duration.

Edited February 22, 2012 by dwtsweeb

[LeperJack]

I could care less about pve, that's not why I play this game. I was specifically addressing people complaining that they can't do anything SPECIFICALLY in WARZONES. I'm honestly curious what the people's gear and spec look like that have problems in WARZONES.

So you care about people not being able to perform on par with everyone else in a tiny minority of content.

 

Okay.

 

As far as things that operative can do better than any other class it really comes down to the ability to position yourself via stealth to gain advantages.

Assassin.

 

Stealth is amazingly useful in ALL warzones for many applications.

Assassin.

 

Also, operative is one of the few if not the only class that can kill someone within stun duration.

LoLno.

 

I suppose if you're heavily geared and they're vastly undergeared you can pull this off with an operative, but you could do it faster under the same circumstances with nearly any other damage specced advanced class.

[Sprigum]

I could care less about pve, that's not why I play this game. I was specifically addressing people complaining that they can't do anything SPECIFICALLY in WARZONES. I'm honestly curious what the people's gear and spec look like that have problems in WARZONES.

 

As far as things that operative can do better than any other class it really comes down to the ability to position yourself via stealth to gain advantages. Stealth is amazingly useful in ALL warzones for many applications. Also, operative is one of the few if not the only class that can kill someone within stun duration.

 

 

First off I play all 3 Operative specs with Full Rakata/Battlemaster gear. I run in PvP with about 300 expertise, 40% Crit, 77% Surge, 500 Power.

 

No matter what respective spec I'm using I generally always come in first place. Why? Because playing against 15 other casual players isn't usually very difficult. This is all of course a caveat to the fact that when playing against people who didn't eat paint chips I'm horribly outclassed.

 

There is no doubt that an Operative 1v1 on LEVEL ground is a formidable opponent, especially when played properly. Concealment and in some cases (when they don't know how to dispel) Lethality are quite strong damage dealing specs.

 

The Medic tree is my predominant tree and honestly I am just on the fence these days with it, especially in PvP. I really find Mercs and Sorcs to just have much more effective mechanics than us. Mercs have the quick burst heals and large mitigation neccesary to PvP well, and Sorcs have the Burst healing and Mobility to PvP well.

 

Operatives Burst healing is hindered by our reliance on Kolto Probe (2) and TA requirements, along with an energy recovery mechanic that is inferior to the Mercs heat dissipation. We're also an easy kill in comparison to the other two with no good escape mechanics and no strong mitigation CD's.

 

The problems we face:

 

- Mobility

- Lack of Mitigation in the form of CC's

- Lack of Utility

 

 

Stealth is the least useful gap closer in the game, and also serves to become a hindrance when people:

 

- Can see you from ridiculous distances (especially as a healer).

 

- When BH/Sorc toss around AoE like it's going out of style

 

- We don't have an actual gap closer for when we get knocked off platforms, punted 15 yards away, or simply kited to our doom.

 

 

There is absolutely no Solo PvP in this game. There is very little world PvP and about 99% of PvP takes place in a WZ or ilum.

 

But, Sprigum I'm at the top of the DMG Done I must be doing it right!

 

Only because there aren't any Mercs/PT's/Sorcs/Assassins doing it properly. It's really frankly all there is to it.

 

You want to know how sad Solo Queue WZ players are? I regularly hop in there do, 300k healing and 200k DMG and top heals and come top 3 in DMG. It's a joke.

 

So, basically what I'm trying to tell you, is that against competent non-mouth breathing opponents the operative is very weak in group PvP. Because you can do the 350k DMG neccesary to be "first" doesn't mean that you're a particularly good player (as you allude to) or that the Operative is strong.

 

Don't come in here on your Alt, with Centurion gear, and absolutely minimal experience and tell the operative community that everything is rainbows and unicorns.

 

From a DPS perspective the class is worthless in PvE. If you want to hit NM enrage timers anyway.

 

From a Healing perspective we lack the tools all the other healers have and require some really dumb amount of micromanagement to play well (and with a god awful UI).

 

Until PvP is 1v1 on level ground in a closed box, we've got issues.

[dwtsweeb]

Sprigum,

 

Thanks for the well thought out and constructed post. I agree whole-heartily with your points concerning pvp healing woes, and pve sustained damage. However, i'm still not convinced that operatives need something to push them into usefulness as far as concealment pvp is concerned. I do agree that mouth-breathing, casual, under-geared opponents are weak and easy targets and can falsely encase oneself into thinking everything is "unicorns and rainbows".

 

However, I do have perspective from other "overpowered" classes such as the sorcerer and I do know a good opponent when I see one. Given that, I still think concealment is in a good spot right now given the current warzone layouts, objectives, and number of opponents.

[dwtsweeb]

double post Edited February 22, 2012 by dwtsweeb

[Luwak]

There are a ton of bad pvp players in this game. I was recently in a huttball game with 5 ops. The other team had 5 mercs. You can see where this is going...

 

At the end of the game (6-0, our loss, took about 10 minutes) the stats were as follows: My friend and I, both operatives, took top damage with just over 100k each and a high kill:death. In 3rd-8th place was their team. 8th place on was healers and the rest of our team. We had 1 op do under 20k dmg and healing.

 

We were the only operatives to do well in that game. And it's not just because the others were bad, or that huttball just isn't our best map. Our class is inherently more difficult to play well than a tracer spamming merc. We don't have knockbacks or gap closers. Our survivability boils down to a 2 minute cooldown. Give me a sorc or a marauder (yes, they are op, people just don't realize it yet) and I will be able to absolutely dominate warzones. I play operative because I like the playstyle, but it's definitely underperforming. If I weren't constantly running premades and queuing solo instead, it would look pretty bleak.

 

The average tor pvper cannot overcome the operative disadvantage in pvp compared to other classes. Excellent players can still perform well, but that's not the point. As much as I enjoy culling the stupid from our ranks, it's not a great way to conduct class balance.

[tharnvedra]

As far as things that operative can do better than any other class it really comes down to the ability to position yourself via stealth to gain advantages. Stealth is amazingly useful in ALL warzones for many applications. Also, operative is one of the few if not the only class that can kill someone within stun duration.

 

So you hide and sometimes kill somebody.

 

I would replace you for an assassin any time of the day. More utility, damage is fine, can win warfronts, can spec ball carrier, can pull people back, can stealth + force speed + knock on bridges ...

 

A good marauder is better in killing people. Most classes have alot more utility and can actually turn a game.

 

Are we ok 1 vs 1? Its ok but who cares?

[Ozzone]

1. Instead of trolling and telling us how bad we are and how we should learn to play, why don't you list ONE THING that an operative can do better than any other class.
   

 

Kill steal.

[Arrys]

I'm playing medicine where I get to spend 14 points to manage TA and energy. To have 1 goto heal with a back-up SP a weak AOE heal and as a result of the poorly designed system spend far to many points on it to have addequate healing and utility.

 

Well technically I'm mainly playing alts at this point.

[pairadox]

So you hide and sometimes kill somebody.

 

I would replace you for an assassin any time of the day. More utility, damage is fine, can win warfronts, can spec ball carrier, can pull people back, can stealth + force speed + knock on bridges ...

 

A good marauder is better in killing people. Most classes have alot more utility and can actually turn a game.

 

Are we ok 1 vs 1? Its ok but who cares?

 

Yeah, thats the truth right there.

 

A good sorc can snag a ball carrier out of the trap, and into the endzone, turning the tide of a game. A good juggernaut can forceleap, force push an enemy ball carrier off the goal line and into the pit, turning the tide, a good Sin Tank can fore pull a ball carrier into the trap.... Goes the same in civil war and void star. Each of these classes has a tool or series of tools that can turn the tide of the game.

 

The operative, has none. There is no tool an operative posses, that can turn the tide of a warzone.

 

Come to think of it, there is no tool an operative posses that can turn the tide of anything. Except it did have burst damage.

 

Now it doesnt have anywhere near what it once was.

 

You can still do moderately well if you have skill.

But if you applied that same skill to a class with more utility, you would be amazing.

 

And thats really the difference here.

[Xenthum]

I'm playing medicine where I get to spend 14 points to manage TA and energy. To have 1 goto heal with a back-up SP a weak AOE heal and as a result of the poorly designed system spend far to many points on it to have addequate healing and utility.

 

Well technically I'm mainly playing alts at this point.

 

If you're PvPing stop speccing 31 points into medicine. It's bad.

[Metalmac]

1. Warzones are not the only endgame content.
   
2. Warzones are not a majority of endgame content.
   
3. Warzones are actually a miniscule portion of endgame content, and with more Operations slated for release and no new warzones announced in development, the relative portion of content that warzones are is shrinking every day.
   
4. All bullet points above apply to PvP as a whole as well.
   
5. This does not mean I am anti-PvP, I am simply pointing out that there is less game content in place for PvP in the entirety of the game than there is for one single starting planet.
   
6. Instead of trolling and telling us how bad we are and how we should learn to play, why don't you list ONE THING that an operative can do better than any other class.
   

 

Ok I will bite.

A Operative can hit me 4 times with Backstab to my mirror class Scrapper in the same time I

can only shoot my shotgun 2 times as the animations slow down my damage.

 

A Operative can flick his wrist and hit me with a Sabotage Charge instantly on the run while the mirror class Scrapper has to use Cover then you see this stupid swirly charge head to the target that EVERYONE CAN SEE. So the again the amimation is much slower and SHOWS EVERYONE WHERE I AM STANDING AS A STEALTH CLASS.

 

A Operative stun is much faster then the Scrapper Dirty Kick, and again animations slow it down.

 

Do you want me to go on....

[Kyntari]

Ok I will bite.

A Operative can hit me 4 times with Backstab to my mirror class Scrapper in the same time I

can only shoot my shotgun 2 times as the animations slow down my damage.

 

A Operative can flick his wrist and hit me with a Sabotage Charge instantly on the run while the mirror class Scrapper has to use Cover then you see this stupid swirly charge head to the target that EVERYONE CAN SEE. So the again the amimation is much slower and SHOWS EVERYONE WHERE I AM STANDING AS A STEALTH CLASS.

 

A Operative stun is much faster then the Scrapper Dirty Kick, and again animations slow it down.

 

Do you want me to go on....

 

grats on missing the point

 

also, what's this? casting explosive probe on the run, without entering cover? i need me some of that

[Cwild]

grats on missing the point

 

also, what's this? casting explosive probe on the run, without entering cover? i need me some of that

 

He's saying the animations. When we cast explosive probe the probe immediately goes onto the target. When they cast sabo charge, they have to throw it, thus making it take a little longer to pull off.

 

 

i think anyway?

Edited February 22, 2012 by Cwild

[Arrys]

If you're PvPing stop speccing 31 points into medicine. It's bad.

 

you get marginal added utility in exchange for sacrificing ability to heal a target through focused damage via improved crits once you invest in getting improved crits the marginal added benefit of Early RN's on the cluster vs other options if investing to improve crits.... I swing back and forth. You definitely give up damage potential i.e. hybrid specs make it much easier to get more medals.

 

If you have a roughly competent team where other people use their AOE snares and cover your back a very modest amount the 31 medicine is a better PvP spec for generating victories. If you are in an every man is in it for themselves the hybrid spec gives you more individual benefit.

 

If you go for lethality as a side and it's energy and AOE nade you really also need the snare. Seeing as you give AOE CC immunity to your flash grenade by using a poison grenade. The snares marginal utility is in your teammates inexplicably not using their baseline snares (juggs for example) It also isn't a good cap stopper, that's normal grenade, it's a cap preventer and a modest amount of skill does let you stack your single target spammable DOT to the same effect without generating mez immunity on multiple targets to generate damage over time. Lethalities big survivability plus comes from improving the CD of debilitate and the AOE snare post a mez. Medals come from easier added damage at the expense of our secondary AOE CC.

 

A conceal side adds more single target killing capacity.

 

Downside of the 31 heal is average PUG vs semi competent team i.e. 2-3 competent coordinateds on opposing team that spot and lambchop the healer = painful. Two general cluster pugs rather be full medicine. Running with some guildies definitely prefer haivng the extra healing to keep them up better and rely on their utility to aid survival.

 

Win ratio remains better in a 31 spec pug or otherwise, however. medal earning is better in hybrid specs as is survival potential if getting lambchopped.

 

World PvP hybrid spec advantage.

[Daggs]

1. Warzones are not the only endgame content.
   
2. Warzones are not a majority of endgame content.
   

 

The OP is clearly discussing PVP in this thread.

 

1. Warzones are actually a miniscule portion of endgame content, and with more Operations slated for release and no new warzones announced in development, the relative portion of content that warzones are is shrinking every day.
   

 

No new warzones? ORLY? let us here from BIOWare:

 

Daniel Erickson: We’ve been pleasantly surprised at how popular PvP is in The Old Republic and we’ve been doubling down on our efforts to bring exciting new content and systems to the PvP community. Right now there’s a new Warzone planned for Game Update 1.2 which we’re already testing internally and really enjoying.

 

1. This does not mean I am anti-PvP, I am simply pointing out that there is less game content in place for PvP in the entirety of the game than there is for one single starting planet.
   

 

Same can be said of Operations. There are two of them and until recently only one had more than one boss. PVP has almost a whole planet to itself and then 3 warzones. There are even *Gasp* whole servers dedicated to PVP. Omagah, Mind = blown.

 

1. Instead of trolling and telling us how bad we are and how we should learn to play, why don't you list ONE THING that an operative can do better than any other class.
   

 

Hmmm lets see.. Hots, Group stealth, Burst Damage... ohhh wait.. just one thing?

[Howbadisbad]

Kill steal.

 

Assassin

 

 

Really there is no advantage to having an Operative. They are the weakest class in the game because they offer no benefits over playing a different class.

[PinnyFox]

I dunno, our burst damage is still pretty insane even after *GASP* 20% decrease! Edited February 22, 2012 by PinnyFox

[Cwild]

I dunno, our burst damage is still pretty insane even after *GASP* 20% decrease!

 

i agree, even after the surge nerf seems pretty good.

 

 

If they were like we are only nerfing OP surge, then yeah it would be crappy, but that wasnt the case.

[Bottomfeeder]

These are the times that separate the FoTM players from the people that truly enjoy the class. I enjoy the story, the companions, the theme of the agent, and when it comes to ships...well nothing holds a candle to our ship.

 

The nerfs hurt and I imagine that we'll get tweaked back and forth more in the near future, but its still the only class that I want to play. So if you're having fun with your agent continue doing so...don't pay so much attention to the doomsayers on the boards.

[Caelrie]

Ok I will bite.

A Operative can hit me 4 times with Backstab to my mirror class Scrapper in the same time I

can only shoot my shotgun 2 times as the animations slow down my damage.

 

A Operative can flick his wrist and hit me with a Sabotage Charge instantly on the run while the mirror class Scrapper has to use Cover then you see this stupid swirly charge head to the target that EVERYONE CAN SEE. So the again the amimation is much slower and SHOWS EVERYONE WHERE I AM STANDING AS A STEALTH CLASS.

 

A Operative stun is much faster then the Scrapper Dirty Kick, and again animations slow it down.

 

Do you want me to go on....

 

I'd prefer you go learn what you're talking about before you go on.

[Zumaeta]

I could care less about pve, that's not why I play this game.

 

Stopped reading.

 

Too hilarious.