Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 1- Make any rewards for PvP cosmetic; titles, outrageous-looking gear, ranking on a leaderboard and so forth...but absolutely no XP, special stats or abilities. You fight for bragging rights, or not at all. 2- No PvP balancing. You balance the game around PvE (since PvE is SWTOR's main focus) and PvPers can choose to fight with the same abilities they use in PvE (which they understand and have used to level up), or not at all. 3- Make it clear that the PvP is there as a diversion, like crafting or player housing. It's not the focus of the game, nor is it meant to be an e-sport, and never will be. You fight other players for fun because you feel like it, or not at all. There you go. No gear grind, no balance issues, no "fix this or else" complaints. You fight for the fun of it, or you go play something else. It really is that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 So you fix pvp by making it so only the overpowered classes get to pvp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absit Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) So your solution to PvP is to make people stop doing it? Instant unsub if I get no xp from PvP - I'm not doing all of those world quests again - I'd rather grind Korean style. It's bad enough world PvP is frowned upon at best as griefing. I wouldn't mind if they made one set of gear, no PvP stat, just as long as you could get it via PvP or PvE. Edited February 22, 2012 by Absit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 So you fix pvp by making it so only the overpowered classes get to pvp? Who cares if they're "overpowered"? You're not going to get anything for winning your fights except a snazzy title and your name on a leaderboard. I play what's fun. Who cares if Operatives were ridiculously overpowered for a while; I wanted a lightsaber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absit Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Who cares if they're "overpowered"? You're not going to get anything for winning your fights except a snazzy title and your name on a leaderboard. I play what's fun. Who cares if Operatives were ridiculously overpowered for a while; I wanted a lightsaber. Because for many of us, killing other people is fun. Why shouldn't I be able to do with a class I like as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 So your solution to PvP is to make people stop doing it? Nope, my solution is to make the fight itself the whole reason for fighting. If you don't get "special purplez" or character-busting abilities, and the only reason you have to fight is the chance to beat another human player...then all this childishness you see on the boards right now goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Because for many of us, killing other people is fun. Why shouldn't I be able to do with a class I like as well? Who says you wouldn't be able to? Bright Wizards in WAR were vastly overpowered, but it didn't stop me from killing my fair share with the "inferior" Magus I loved to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absit Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Who says you wouldn't be able to? Bright Wizards in WAR were vastly overpowered, but it didn't stop me from killing my fair share with the "inferior" Magus I loved to play. And a much larger than their fair share of them killed everyone else. Balance has to be made around both PvE and PvP, or if I have to pick one, PvP. If you take the rewards out of warzones, goodbye warzones. The people that actually want to PvP would world PvP. But wait, there's a massive population imbalance, and giant worlds with only a couple dozen people at most most of the time. Edited February 22, 2012 by Absit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Who says you wouldn't be able to? Bright Wizards in WAR were vastly overpowered, but it didn't stop me from killing my fair share with the "inferior" Magus I loved to play. WAR's incredibly imbalanced pvp is what killed that game, most people don't like playing a gimped class and aren't going to pay 15$ a month to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 And a much larger than their fair share of them killed everyone else. Balance has to be made around both PvE and PvP, or if I have to pick one, PvP. If you take the rewards out of warzones, goodbye warzones. The people that actually want to PvP would world PvP. But wait, there's a massive population imbalance, and giant worlds with only a couple dozen people at most most of the time. Again, none of what you're saying would matter if there were no rewards for warzones, world PvP, griefing, ganking, zerging, or any other form of PvP. If the developer tells you "Our game lets you PvP for the fun of it, but offers no rewards or incentives for doing so. Fight other players, or don't. Your choice" then you'll fight, or not, but you don't get to complain about the rewards or the balance because none was ever promised. The point is that the fight in PvP is the point. If you need an incentive, you're looking for PvE...not PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) WAR's incredibly imbalanced pvp is what killed that game, most people don't like playing a gimped class and aren't going to pay 15$ a month to do so. What killed the game was Mythic's promise to try and balance everything perfectly so that the rewards they offered you would be equally within everyone's reach. They failed to deliver on their promise, so the game died off. If you promise something to paying customers and are incapable of delivering, you get complaints. Solution in this case? Remove the source of the complaints, i.e. achieving an unattainable "perfect balance" in the pursuit of unsatisfactory rewards. You fight other players to "test your skill" and "for the thrill of the challenge", right? Ergo, you get no special rewards and, if your class is somehow weaker and you still win...greater challenge, greater satisfaction. No? EDIT: You know what I find really sad? Players reading this thread and thinking, "Pffff...like I'm gonna PvP unless I get some awesome gear out of it!!!" Those players who completely miss the point of PvP are what kills PvP in MMOs...not the developers. Edited February 22, 2012 by Zaskaszh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfAttack Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Ok then how do you balance PvE progression gear in PvP? I mean seriously not everyone will be able to raid and as PvE players progress then it will cause a massive imbalance in the WZs. Fight is fun however getting your arse stomped because the player you fought had 2 or 3 times the stats you had is not fun. Skill plays a part in PvP but when you are overly out matched in gear then skill no longer plays a part. You would need to make craftable gear that is comparable to PvE gear and we know where that will lead, PvE players will cry that raid gear isnt the BiS for majority slots anymore. I am of course talking about as the game progresses and not at current stated, cause if this game is to last years on end just imagine the increase gains the the PvE gear will have compared to standard quest gear. You intentions maybe good no matter how flawed the idea maybe. If you take DAoC for example crafting gear was supreme while adding dropped loot as fillers and thats why PvE and RvR exsisted so easily. That game however had caps for everything so you really needed the crafted gear in order to get the most out of your character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No gear grind means no retention or subscription money. Why can't people see that? Do you think people will pay $15 a month for guild wars or no gear progression MMO? No one will. But 12 million people will pay $15 a month to play World Of Warcraft which requires more grinding to get the best in slot gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Ok then how do you balance PvE progression gear in PvP? You don't. You setup the modern equivalent of Everquest's "Zek" servers, i.e. the exact same PvE game but with the "fight other players?" switch turned on. That's it, that's all. I mean seriously not everyone will be able to raid and as PvE players progress then it will cause a massive imbalance in the WZs. Then don't make warzones. If you want PvP, you go out into the same gameworld as on the regular PvE servers, find someone, and try to kill them. Fight is fun however getting your arse stomped because the player you fought had 2 or 3 times the stats you had is not fun. You get that anyway with the current warzones setup. Even if you create 10-level brackets, the higher level players in that bracket will have skills and gear you can't have. It's simply not possible to attain a state of balance where every single player has an equal chance at victory over another, therefore...don't try. As a developer, you're just setting yourself up for failure. Tell the players to fight for the fun of it, and if they win, great. If not...level, get better gear, or fight someone closer to your character's strength. Skill plays a part in PvP but when you are overly out matched in gear then skill no longer plays a part. ...which is again the exact scenario you have right now. A level 20 player in a warzone isn't going to beat a level 45 player unless said level 45 player is blind, deaf, and paralyzed. The only difference is that right now, people somehow expect Bioware to figure out a way to make the level 20 player have an equal chance against the level 45 player...and they really want it soon, because they really want to get that PvP gear. I'm saying Bioware should say "There's no PvP gear to get, and a level 20 isn't supposed to beat a level 45, ever, so don't wait for us to fix it so that you can...but hey, if you wanna try, knock yourself out". You would need to make craftable gear that is comparable to PvE gear and we know where that will lead, PvE players will cry that raid gear isnt the BiS for majority slots anymore. I am of course talking about as the game progresses and not at current stated, cause if this game is to last years on end just imagine the increase gains the the PvE gear will have compared to standard quest gear. You intentions maybe good no matter how flawed the idea maybe. If you take DAoC for example crafting gear was supreme while adding dropped loot as fillers and thats why PvE and RvR exsisted so easily. That game however had caps for everything so you really needed the crafted gear in order to get the most out of your character. Maybe it's just me, but if there was no reason to PvP except for the fun of fighting someone else, I wouldn't care about any of this. If I saw someone 15 levels higher than me, I'd expect them to have a pretty good shot at killing me. I wouldn't care that his shoulder piece had 27 more "manliness" than mine had. I'm suggesting that people realize that PvP is supposed to be about fighting the other guy...and nothing else. As soon as the words "Yes but gear..." form in your mind, under any circumstance, you've lost the point again. Kindly see my edits in red for responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodwinked Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Its bad enough since they cut the xp you got from pvping by like 75%, now you want it to give nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 No gear grind means no retention or subscription money. Why can't people see that? Do you think people will pay $15 a month for guild wars or no gear progression MMO? No one will. But 12 million people will pay $15 a month to play World Of Warcraft which requires more grinding to get the best in slot gears. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; World of Warcraft is an aberration. Blizzard themselves will never, ever be able to re-create that kind of success, even if they make a World of Warcraft 2. And in any case, it's not even relevant to this discussion; make your gear progression game. Put in some PvP; just make sure you tell your players "The gear progression happens in PvE only. You're not getting anything for PvP beyond the pride of pointing out your ranking on the leaderboards, and the fun of killing many competing players." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Your idea leads to PvE raiders dominating PvP. NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Its bad enough since they cut the xp you got from pvping by like 75%, now you want it to give nothing? Yup. If the XP you get from PvP is zero, and the gear you get from PvP looks really awesome but is no better than comparable PvE gear, then why would you PvP? The answer is; to kill the other guy and see how you measure up against everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Your idea leads to PvE raiders dominating PvP. NO. No it doesn't. You can have the best raid gear in the game, but if you don't know your class very well and don't have good reflexes and panic when someone ambushes you, you're going to lose. You need to stop thinking that gear is the point of PvP; it isn't. You need to stop thinking that having good gear is what makes someone successful at PvP; it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typheran Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 horrible idea.. why not just remove pvp instead? Because this would be lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absit Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I've determined that this is in fact a troll thread. Good work, you got me for a few posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodwinked Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yup. If the XP you get from PvP is zero, and the gear you get from PvP looks really awesome but is no better than comparable PvE gear, then why would you PvP? The answer is; to kill the other guy and see how you measure up against everyone else. Then why even have pvp gear? If it is going to be equal to pve gear? You might as well take it out all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 horrible idea.. why not just remove pvp instead? Because this would be lame. Would you care to explain why? PvP means "player versus player". The idea I am putting forth pretty much guarantees tons of opportunities to fight other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwookie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Sorry, your idea is just terrible. World PVP isn't balanced and can never be. Most of the time it's just ganking people. I'm not interested in ganking - I'm only interested in balanced team pvp where I can win based on skill and superior team play. Removing pvp gear is fine if they removed the ability of pve gear being used in warzones. I'd be willing to fight counter strike style where we buy equipment before the warzone starts. But 10-49 pvp is pointless the real point to warzones, raids, is that it is meant for post 50 content. Without warzones there would literally be no reason to play my 50 as I'm not interested in pve; beating the same scripted encounters every week. Once our character is done everyone wants to test their strength. Warzones, or team pvp is really the only method of doing so. You take out warzones and you basically kill the reason most pvpers play their 50s. Edited February 22, 2012 by bwookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaskaszh Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 I've determined that this is in fact a troll thread. Good work, you got me for a few posts. It's not a troll thread in the least, and I'd like to know what I've written that constitutes a trolling attempt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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