People who ninja for their companions

[universeman]

You don't respect people who don't respect other people

There are are people who exist that don't respect other people

Therefore you don't respect other people

Therefore you don't respect yourself.

 

is there something unclear there?

 

Your stance is something like "Loot the way i say you should or I'll call you a jerk and disband you from group right before the boss dies just to grief you"

 

You're demonizing the people who are in favor of respecting our fellow players, and clearly not respecting other people. Your argument insisting that respect is the root of the issue is entirely hypocritical.

 

Really, ferroz? Really...? You are grasping. And no, my "stance" has nothing to do with what you stated. You are clearly being unreasonable and defensive in this discussion. But, that's cool.

 

P.S. The whole disband you before the boss was tongue in cheek...thought that was pretty clearly identified by the smiley left at the end =>

[Zunayson]

Analogies will always be picked apart. I just avoid them all together.

 

Yes I know it's not a perfect analogy - nothing's perfect. But still I think I made a point (But of course I'm clearly unbiased.

 

But still with my point: Isn't a player more valuable than a companion? Companions aren't affected by the player who owns them or vice versa in the group

Edited February 22, 2012 by Zunayson

[souloferdrick]

To those saying companions have a right to be need'd if they help take down the boss, consider this:

 

If this is like the House of Representatives:

 

Usefulness to the group is population of the state's delegate

The roll a player places on an item is the number of votes the delegate has

The player who gets the item is the one elected president

 

That being said, should a state with less population have an equal say than that of a larger one? No, that's why anyone stood with the House of Representatives. Applying this to SWTOR, since when is a companion as useful to the group as a real player?

 

Should the vote/roll of a real player, one who was 99% chance way more useful than someone's companion be equal to that of a player for his or her companion?

 

Is the usefulness of the companion directly affecting the usefulness to the group of the player who owns the companion? No, gearing a companion only affects the companion's performance in the group (Forget any solo pve encounters). Since the companion most likely did less to the group than one of the 3 agents in the group, shouldn't the agent's vote have more say in the matter?

 

Obviously, the ones who made the United State's government made a compromise to settle the matter, and to have two rolls (rolls are votes, remember?): One based on population (Usefulness to the group), and one strictly based on counting (RNG). Why not do the same here?

 

Okay, they most likely won't have two rolls, but discuss please, so I can feel like I contributed to the conversation by taking the time to write it.

 

They need to simply leave it alone and let the groups decide how they want to handle loot.

[Acushla]

At the end of the day, everyone has their own opinions. For myself (not speaking for anyone else just me), I like if someone will not follow the rules 'you' think are fair, don't group with them. Don't yell/scream/rant, just don't group with them again.

 

This works whether you are group leader or not.

 

If you join a group and the loot rules are disagreeable to you, leave. If you stay, and do not make an effort before entering the fighting to negotiate the loot rules you are agreeing to be bound by them. This is again 'my' opinion and not intended as a reflection on anyone else.

[Datku]

Are you guys seriously debating this point? Real player trumps NPC and you try to justify by saying NPC can't roll so it is a real life player... OMG I can see why some people can get upset.

 

This whole debate is a /facepalm event for sure. And I guess it also shows who are inconsiderate loot whores.

 

As I said...pull this on me in my group and I will give you a nice fast exit from the instance. I run people through instances to help them gear up but pull this and your out. Justify it to yourself all you want I will have no problem right clicking your group window and selecting remove from group. Bye bye...good luck.

 

Oh and I always explain looting when I am with pugs. Guildies I don't need to...they try to pull this type of trash they get kicked from guild. But with pugs I always say need if you need, greed otherwise including if you need for a companion. Plain and simple, right up front before even doing the first pull. You agree welcome aboard...you don't leave group.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Datku

[ferroz]

Really, ferroz? Really...?

Yes.

 

And no, my "stance" has nothing to do with what you stated.

Oh, so you're fine with people rolling need on loot that they want for their companions. Good to know.

 

P.S. The whole disband you before the boss was tongue in cheek...

suuure it was.

[Zunayson]

They need to simply leave it alone and let the groups decide how they want to handle loot.

 

Well if everyone did that / if there were no problems with that, then this topic would never come up. Although yes, you have a point, not everyone is proactive enough to tell everyone about how they want the loot to work.

 

And It also comes down to how the loot geared on the person who received affected his/her performance. A knife drops for agents. There is a sniper and an operative. If I were a sniper, I'd let the operative have it most likely, as I benefit less from knives than the operative - of course assuming our starting gear prior to the drop was the same.

[Vydor_HC]

Yes I know it's not a perfect analogy - nothing's perfect. But still I think I made a point (But of course I'm clearly unbiased.

 

But still with my point: Isn't a player more valuable than a companion? Companions aren't affected by the player who owns them or vice versa in the group

 

Analogies are great tools, but in arguments, when someone uses one, the topic of conversations generally goes into the details of the analogy and strays from the real issue. I'm not saying yours is off the mark, it's just I don't generally pay 'em much attention in a debate.

[Irusan]

I don't know what world you live in, but my experience is completely different than yours. Most people I PUG with are respectful with those buttons. And all I do is PUG. And yes, I've been playing for as long as you (since I know past history has merit with you). Hell, I may be older than you...so lets not bring seniority into the equation.

 

What are you trying to do, man? Take away his "I Win" button? What anyone thinks age has to do with the topic is beyond me. I guess it's like "I'll impress everyone with my credentials and they will see things my way."

 

I thought it was only the 13 year olds that constantly obsessed over calling everyone a "kid". Or whipper-snapper, as the case may be.

[Vecke]

Yes I know it's not a perfect analogy - nothing's perfect. But still I think I made a point (But of course I'm clearly unbiased.

 

I think he was saying that analogies - even perfect analogies - will be picked apart. No matter how good the analogy is, the result is 5 pages of debate about the details of the analogy instead of the point the analogy was making. "Okay, taking that analogy a step further..."

 

It's the same with a few happy words. Never ever ever use "Fact" as a one word sentence to make the previous sentence have more substance.

 

Never accuse someone of using a "straw man" argument, even if they are using one. In all my MMO days, I've never seen a situation where using the words "straw man" ended well.

 

The same goes for the phrases "logical fallacy", "that's YOUR opinion", or "Thanks for proving my point."

 

Sorry for the derail. Back to the regularly scheduled bickering.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Vecke

[kilosoldier]

As server populations mature and the community gets to know one another more, those who think that they are entitled, whether they can technically do it or not, to roll need for companions over player characterts will be ostracized and shunned from the pug communities on a server, and quite possibly within their own guild, and very quickly find themselves on the outside looking in because of their actions.

 

That stigma will last long after the usefulness of that gear for ones companion.

 

I suggest the smug people that do this think long and hard about this situation.

Edited February 22, 2012 by kilosoldier

[ferroz]

Are you guys seriously debating this point? Real player trumps NPC and you try to justify by saying NPC can't roll so it is a real life player...

What you're saying here does not have anything to do with rolling need for a companion.

 

When someone does that, it's one real life player rolling against another real life player. Neither of the real life players trump each other.

 

So whether a real player trumps an npc isn't relevant.

 

one of the real life players will win the loot. In no case can an NPC trump the real life player... it's simply not possible.

 

And I guess it also shows who are inconsiderate loot whores.

Yes, the ones who say "no, I don't care why you want it, it matches what I want so you shouldn't even be allowed to roll on it" ... Edited February 22, 2012 by ferroz

[Vydor_HC]

At the end of the day, everyone has their own opinions. For myself (not speaking for anyone else just me), I like if someone will not follow the rules 'you' think are fair, don't group with them. Don't yell/scream/rant, just don't group with them again.

 

This works whether you are group leader or not.

 

If you join a group and the loot rules are disagreeable to you, leave. If you stay, and do not make an effort before entering the fighting to negotiate the loot rules you are agreeing to be bound by them. This is again 'my' opinion and not intended as a reflection on anyone else.

 

-nods-

 

That's how I view it too. Looting arguments can be the worst of any, man I've seen some real doozies in my time. I just put it all behind me now and let people loot how they want...it's not really that big of a deal to me. But yeah, make sure you know what you're getting into when you group.

[Setanian]

The actual topic (I think) is whether or not companions are worth a need roll when against the roll of someone's created character (ferroz, I'm trying to think of a way to differentiate them in a way that you won't criticize, without specifying their value Is "created character" okay?)

 

It's a whole lot deeper than that I feel.

 

BW gave us a mechanic, which when used, allows us to level at some predetermined speed. Additionally, they added so much reliance on that mechanic, that some people, rightly feel more attached to the mechanic than they do the character.

 

In some cases, players feel their PC is better played by being geared first and others feel their companion should be geared first, and this is based on the class being played or the role the companion is playing.

 

Naturally, there is attachment to the companion. And in that light, there is a school of thought, and valid, that the companion needs that drop as much as any character.

 

While needing for the companion might go against the grain for some, for others, it is a necessity. And, in reality, the debate is about conformance to an accepted ideology.

 

Whether that ideology is correct or incorrect is really up to the player to decide. If we take away the threats of excommunication and that fluff, we're left back at square 1.

 

BW have rowed in with a dev saying it may get looked at. But, I feel this is a dangerous approach to take.

 

If BW were to set some standard, one has to ask, are they setting the standard for ToR or more worryingly, for the entire genre?

 

It is very noteworthy, that this whole mainstream NBG came from WoW. I know it was there in forms on other games, heck we had it in MuDs way way back. But WoW brought it to the masses by virtue of their player base.

 

It has now become the 'norm', rightly or wrongly. If BW were to now set another standard, who knows where it will end.

 

Then we have the whole premise of , is the publisher supposed to bring the game to the players and let them play or should the publisher bring the game and all the rules. Again, this effects not just the publisher's game but all those that might follow, again, setting precedents.

 

Precedents are dangerous things. You set one in one game and are then forced to cater to it in every other game.

 

Regardless of this, I don't like the game, not for loot stuff, but for many other reasons, including the general community.

 

/end of waffle

[Zunayson]

Okay fine no analogies.

 

Since when is a companion as useful to the group as a real player?

[souloferdrick]

Are you guys seriously debating this point? Real player trumps NPC and you try to justify by saying NPC can't roll so it is a real life player... OMG I can see why some people can get upset.

 

Its real easy to say when you don't feel compelled to back it up with any reasoning beyond "just because". And that's not what hes saying and if you can't grasp it, thats not his fault.

 

This whole debate is a /facepalm event for sure. And I guess it also shows who are inconsiderate loot whores.

 

Then the label applies to both then because they are arguing for the very same thing: The ability to do what they want with the spoils.

 

As I said...pull this on me in my group and I will give you a nice fast exit from the instance. I run people through instances to help them gear up but pull this and your out. Justify it to yourself all you want I will have no problem right clicking your group window and selecting remove from group. Bye bye...good luck.

 

I don't care how you run your groups nor are your personal practices relevant to the discussion.

[ferroz]

Since when is a companion as useful to the group as a real player?

Why does it matter?

[Vydor_HC]

Okay fine no analogies.

 

Since when is a companion as useful to the group as a real player?

 

Some encounters I cannot do without my companion, so they are vital to me.

[Vecke]

Okay fine no analogies.

 

Since when is a companion as useful to the group as a real player?

 

Sorry, I wasn't picking on you there. I just used your comment as a springboard to show how hip and cool I am.

[Setanian]

As server populations mature and the community gets to know one another more, those who think that they are entitled, whether they can technically do it or not, to roll need for companions over player characterts will be ostracized and shunned from the pug communities on a server, and quite possibly within their own guild, and very quickly find themselves on the outside looking in because of their actions.

 

That stigma will last long after the usefulness of that gear for ones companion.

 

I suggest the smug people that do this think long and hard about this situation.

 

Such a thing can only be an issue, if the population is so low on the server that you remember every name as it logs in.

 

If it ever gets that low, loot rules will be the least of anyone's worries

[kilosoldier]

Such a thing can only be an issue, if the population is so low on the server that you remember every name as it logs in.

 

If it ever gets that low, loot rules will be the least of anyone's worries

 

People will earn a "name" for themselves. It happens in EVERY game. "Ninjas" will be shunned.

[ferroz]

As server populations mature and the community gets to know one another more, those who think that they are entitled, whether they can technically do it or not, to roll need for companions over player characterts will be ostracized and shunned from the pug communities on a server, and quite possibly within their own guild, and very quickly find themselves on the outside looking in because of their actions.

 

That stigma will last long after the usefulness of that gear for ones companion.

 

I suggest the smug people that do this think long and hard about this situation.

Eh, we had real ninjalooters in EQ. People who stole loot that other people earned... that other RAIDS earned.

 

There was a druid who ninja'd then off of someone's 10th coldain ring war. She name changed, but that was back when SoE tracked name changes and so it's not like she was able to escape her rep. Edit: That was during SoL or early PoP, so the stuff she stole was still relevant.

 

she was still in a guild when I stopped playing. I still saw her in pug groups in some of the zones I was in.

 

edit again: not shaman, druid and it was just the coldain ring war. The shaman I was thinking of ninja'd off of the AoW. I think they happened around the same time; I keep conflating them for some reason.

 

There was a druid who was well known for training. He had spent ages training people, especially in RM (hill giants). he was in a guild years later

 

really, some people vastly overestimate how much rep matters. even when you've got your name on the server PoMS list (piece of Monkey X list)

Edited February 22, 2012 by ferroz

[souloferdrick]

Well if everyone did that / if there were no problems with that, then this topic would never come up. Although yes, you have a point, not everyone is proactive enough to tell everyone about how they want the loot to work.

 

And It also comes down to how the loot geared on the person who received affected his/her performance. A knife drops for agents. There is a sniper and an operative. If I were a sniper, I'd let the operative have it most likely, as I benefit less from knives than the operative - of course assuming our starting gear prior to the drop was the same.

 

Many, many people form guilds or join guilds and similar associations so they can play with people of a like mindset. Things like loot distribution methods, usually play a large hand in this. Its why things like DKP are designed, implemented and adopted on a mass scale.

 

There are zero issues with the current loot system. The problem isn't with the game. Its a difference in opinion on how it should be handled. That right there should tell you to leave the current system alone and let the players sort it out for themselves.

 

Since the mob can't handle making real decisions on their own and for themselves, they will always appeal to an authority, or daddy figure, to come and make it better....for them of course.

[Vydor_HC]

As server populations mature and the community gets to know one another more, those who think that they are entitled, whether they can technically do it or not, to roll need for companions over player characterts will be ostracized and shunned from the pug communities on a server, and quite possibly within their own guild, and very quickly find themselves on the outside looking in because of their actions.

 

That stigma will last long after the usefulness of that gear for ones companion.

 

I suggest the smug people that do this think long and hard about this situation.

 

Well, you can't ninja in this game. And the only players who would be a fault of bad behavior are the ones that accuse players of "ninjaing" when the rules were not discussed, or the ones that intentionally broke the rules. And I think everyone here is in favor of both of those parties being subject to any ramifications their actions lead to.

[kilosoldier]

Well, you can't ninja in this game. And the only players who would be a fault of bad behavior are the ones that accuse players of "ninjaing" when the rules were not discussed, or the ones that intentionally broke the rules. And I think everyone here is in favor of both of those parties being subject to any ramifications their actions lead to.

 

Im not using the term literally but in a figurative sense.