No Cross Realm LFG tool please!

[chaosdefined]

There is a certain irony to people complaining they don't want a tool which allows them to socialise with players across servers because it takes away the socialness of the game...

[ferroz]

except they are known by their character name and there is a lot more chance to meet them again if they are on the same server and thus they will find that there are consequences.. Surely you could of worked that out

Nope; no consequences.

 

There weren't consequences in EQ; people on the server piece of monkey *** list (PoMS) still got groups, remained in guilds, etc. People who weren't on that list but regularily trained, KS, camp jumped, etc were still in the top 3 progression raid guilds on the server.

 

The top defiant guild on my rift shard was full of some real scum; you'd see someone complain about one of them ninjalooting every week. It never affected their ability to be in a guild, run raids, or get groups even a tiny little bit.

 

The guy who was known to have used masterloot to snipe the mount from ony continued to be in a guild and pug raids every week.

 

 

scum take advantage of other players every day; you can rant about them in general chat, but noone cares. At best, you'll never have to group with that person again, but you've done nothing to even inconvenience them.

 

People who play MMOs are totally anonymous... There are no consequences for their actions in game. This is equally true whether you have a cross server lfg tool or not.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ferroz

[matzackjones]

This post encapsulates the fallacious argument against cross-server LFG tools. It assumes that players join dungeons to socialize and not to finish a dungeon. This is wrong. We are not using a Star Wars themed chat client, we're playing a game. Joining a dungeon group carries with it the implicit understanding that you're there to do a job, whatever that job is. Anything else that happens is outside the parameters of the dungeon.

 

Servers don't have communities. This is an illusion. On my RIFT server, 50 chat always has a few individuals that everyone knows by name chit-chatting away. This doesn't constitute a community, it constitutes pattern recognition - kudos! You recognize a vocal player by name.

 

Finally, people here are guilty of very questionable logic when it comes to the LFG. Specifically, they start with the supposition "WoW had cross server LFG and WoW's community was crap. Therefore cross server LFG makes the server community crap". WoW's playerbase is immense. There are the same proportion of smacktards there as there is here, there's just a fewer number of them. RIFT had xserver LFG and is better for it all around. There's simply no objective evidence to say that cross server LFG tools induce players to be better or worse to each other than is normal on the internet at large.

 

The only real difference is that more people run more dungeons more frequently, raising the chance that you'll run in to someone you don't like. But you know what? That's the whoooole point.

 

I don't entirely agree.

 

I think its not just a case of running more dungeons and coming across more idiots as a result. I believe people behave differently, when hiding behind the quasi-anonymous nature of LFG.

[chaosdefined]

Well come on, look at the most recent example in WoW.

 

Dream Paragon I think, one of the top raiding guilds in WoW, were going into the LFR tool and and then needing on all the equipment, even if they already had it, in order to pass it to a guildmate.

 

What happened to them? Oh they got a weeks ban from the game, then went right back to it. Meanwhile every other guild that got reported for doing that had nothing done and continued on.

 

So yeah, that's really anonymity causing players to act badly like that.

[corbanite]

Nope; no consequences.

 

There weren't consequences in EQ; people on the server piece of monkey *** list (PoMS) still got groups, remained in guilds, etc. People who weren't on that list but regularily trained, KS, camp jumped, etc were still in the top 3 progression raid guilds on the server.

 

The top defiant guild on my rift shard was full of some real scum; you'd see someone complain about one of them ninjalooting every week. It never affected their ability to be in a guild, run raids, or get groups even a tiny little bit.

 

The guy who was known to have used masterloot to snipe the mount from ony continued to be in a guild and pug raids every week.

 

 

scum take advantage of other players every day; you can rant about them in general chat, but noone cares. At best, you'll never have to group with that person again, but you've done nothing to even inconvenience them.

 

People who play MMOs are totally anonymous... There are no consequences for their actions in game. This is equally true whether you have a cross server lfg tool or not.

 

depends I was GM of a top raid guild.. Many of the ninja's I came across didn't know that till they applied.

[Isomodia]

The reason I switched from WoW to SW:ToR was to get away from the cross realm dungeon finder. I, for one, will be cancelling my subscription if it gets implemented here.

 

I remember back in Vanilla/TBC when you logged onto your server and you knew all of the regulars. You knew the trolls, you knew who knew their class and you knew for the most part who you wanted in your group.

 

The reason people say it destroyed the community is because without XRDF you were accountable for your behavior. Commonly ninja loot and soon you won't be getting invites. Pull half the dungeon and bubble hearth, and the community knew. Mark CC targets, pull correctly, properly use cooldowns, avoid breaking CCs, and everyone on the server loves you.

 

Then the dungeon finder cones in, 20% of your tank gear gets stolen by DPS/Healers because, why not? If nothing else, they can vendor it for 10g and never have to worry about it again. People become abusive and trash talk each other over the smallest mistakes because there is no accountability.

 

I'm loving SW just like I loved WoW, but I will NOT be dealing with the trash cross realm dungeons bring in. I hope the developers realize this. If the community decides it's what they want, though, go for it. 1 subscription doesn't mean anything. I just hope I get a few more months here first, at least.

[Zocat]

No, all 3 of those statements are false;

with cross server lfg? You can friend them. You can talk to them. You can do instances on another day with them. You can do that in wow right now.

 

What you're really arguing against is a poorly implemented cross server lfg system rather than cross server lfg itself.

 

Read the rest. Dont nitpick.

[ferroz]

Well come on, look at the most recent example in WoW.

 

Dream Paragon I think, one of the top raiding guilds in WoW, were going into the LFR tool and and then needing on all the equipment, even if they already had it, in order to pass it to a guildmate.

 

What happened to them? Oh they got a weeks ban from the game, then went right back to it. Meanwhile every other guild that got reported for doing that had nothing done and continued on.

So, that looks like it's exactly the same consequences happened cross that would happen same server; kind of the opposite of what people are arguing.

 

So yeah, that's really anonymity causing players to act badly like that.

No, I've seen that same behavior single server in several games; there's nothing in your example that shows that it's causing anything.

[chaosdefined]

Has anyone actually thought that perhaps it's not the LFD tool, it's just the current state of players?

 

Players were more mature before because there were less of them?

 

As a game becomes more popular and gains a much larger playerbase, that expands the chances of there being more bad players.

 

Plus there's a lot more immature players coming into MMO's.

 

So maybe it's not the Tool, it's that there are more bad players than years ago.

[chaosdefined]

So, that looks like it's exactly the same consequences happened cross that would happen same server; kind of the opposite of what people are arguing.

 

No, I've seen that same behavior single server in several games; there's nothing in your example that shows that it's causing anything.

 

I'm pro-Cross Server LFG dude, my example was to prove that even without the Cross Server tool players and guilds are still acting like this.

[Valkirus]

The reason I switched from WoW to SW:ToR was to get away from the cross realm dungeon finder. I, for one, will be cancelling my subscription if it gets implemented here.

 

I remember back in Vanilla/TBC when you logged onto your server and you knew all of the regulars. You knew the trolls, you knew who knew their class and you knew for the most part who you wanted in your group.

 

The reason people say it destroyed the community is because without XRDF you were accountable for your behavior. Commonly ninja loot and soon you won't be getting invites. Pull half the dungeon and bubble hearth, and the community knew. Mark CC targets, pull correctly, properly use cooldowns, avoid breaking CCs, and everyone on the server loves you.

 

Then the dungeon finder cones in, 20% of your tank gear gets stolen by DPS/Healers because, why not? If nothing else, they can vendor it for 10g and never have to worry about it again. People become abusive and trash talk each other over the smallest mistakes because there is no accountability.

 

I'm loving SW just like I loved WoW, but I will NOT be dealing with the trash cross realm dungeons bring in. I hope the developers realize this. If the community decides it's what they want, though, go for it. 1 subscription doesn't mean anything. I just hope I get a few more months here first, at least.

 

I would hate to see you cancel your sub over a LFG feature. I want one to be implemented. I think the game needs it badly. And by the way...they are going to put in a server side only LFG for heroics and Flashpoints and I also read a cross server PVP warfront? So...you may want to reconsider your stance.

 

I am GM of a guild in WoW and I can say from my own experence, it has had no negavtive impact on the guild I am in. If anything..it has helped it to grow as many of us use it weekly. We have not lost any members because of it and have gained members sence it was implemented. We have but one rule and that is to respect others in both word and actions. The LFR tool is full of pugs and we make use of the ignore player feature often.

 

What the Looking for Raid does for a lot of us is allows us to run end game content at our own personal best times and without the need for vent or addons/mods. We enjoy getting together and running them as a group. I fail to see how this can be a bad thing for TOR. In fact..I predict it will help the game more than hurt it.

[DarthTHC]

The reason I switched from WoW to SW:ToR was to get away from the cross realm dungeon finder. I, for one, will be cancelling my subscription if it gets implemented here.

 

I remember back in Vanilla/TBC when you logged onto your server and you knew all of the regulars. You knew the trolls, you knew who knew their class and you knew for the most part who you wanted in your group.

 

The reason people say it destroyed the community is because without XRDF you were accountable for your behavior. Commonly ninja loot and soon you won't be getting invites. Pull half the dungeon and bubble hearth, and the community knew. Mark CC targets, pull correctly, properly use cooldowns, avoid breaking CCs, and everyone on the server loves you.

 

Then the dungeon finder cones in, 20% of your tank gear gets stolen by DPS/Healers because, why not? If nothing else, they can vendor it for 10g and never have to worry about it again. People become abusive and trash talk each other over the smallest mistakes because there is no accountability.

 

I'm loving SW just like I loved WoW, but I will NOT be dealing with the trash cross realm dungeons bring in. I hope the developers realize this. If the community decides it's what they want, though, go for it. 1 subscription doesn't mean anything. I just hope I get a few more months here first, at least.

 

You realize nobody will force you to use X-LFD, right?

[ferroz]

Has anyone actually thought that perhaps it's not the LFD tool, it's just the current state of players?

I'd agree; it's the latter.

 

Players were more mature before because there were less of them?

I think it's more that the game community itself was drawn from a bit of a different demographic in those early mmos.

 

If you look at early MMO's I suspect that you have a larger percentage of people who got their start with PnP RPGs; say: pnp rpgs, then ultima series of PC games, then UO/EQ/whatever.

 

 

Now, you're likely to see more of the reverse: people start with console gaming and wind up PnP gaming after; even though the primary demographic age hasn't change, the people in that demographic have (they grew up with handheld game console in their hand)

 

 

There was a similar shift between message boards from a couple of decades ago (usenet and fidonet) vs message boards today.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ferroz

[Isomodia]

You realize nobody will force you to use X-LFD, right?

 

No one forces you to use it in WoW, either. Ever tried getting a dungeon group together without it?

 

 

I would hate to see you cancel your sub over a LFG feature. I want one to be implemented. I think the game needs it badly. And by the way...they are going to put in a server side only LFG for heroics and Flashpoints and I also read a cross server PVP warfront? So...you may want to reconsider your stance.

 

I am GM of a guild in WoW and I can say from my own experence, it has had no negavtive impact on the guild I am in. If anything..it has helped it to grow as many of us use it weekly. We have not lost any members because of it and have gained members sence it was implemented. We have but one rule and that is to respect others in both word and actions. The LFR tool is full of pugs and we make use of the ignore player feature often.

 

What the Looking for Raid does for a lot of us is allows us to run end game content at our own personal best times and without the need for vent or addons/mods. We enjoy getting together and running them as a group. I fail to see how this can be a bad thing for TOR. In fact..I predict it will help the game more than hurt it.

 

That's what I heard. That said, it seems like this topic in particular is for cross realm dungeons, which I am against. Generally, if you queue as 2,3,4 and are respectful, there is little issue. It's the 1 person trying to get his dungeon quests done, which on the surface seems to be who they are trying to help, that takes the brunt of the abuse.

 

It's not every group, every time. Like I say, it seems like only about 20% of the time you draw the bad seed, but at the same time there is no accountability or responsibility for it. Especially seeing how much less strictly this game has been moderated than WoW to this point, I just feel like it would be a headache for me. It could have to do with the fact that my job has me dealing with less than stellar people on a daily basis that just has my patience on end, also.

[DarthTHC]

No one forces you to use it in WoW, either. Ever tried getting a dungeon group together without it?

 

So... wait... you're saying that with all its warts and problems and community killing, X-LFD in WoW is so popular that it's painful or impossible to get into a group without using it?

 

It must not really be that bad if everyone is using it...

[ferroz]

No one forces you to use it in WoW, either. Ever tried getting a dungeon group together without it?

Yes. I've done probably 1000 groups since the lfd tool released that were totally put together without using the dungeon finder to put the group together.

 

edit: actually, it's less than that, probably more like 600ish; 400 of those 1000 were partially formed that way, but have a pug or 2; but most of those 1000ish were full groups, not partial groups.

 

I've done a lot of pugging as well (another 1000ish, full pugs by my estimate), but that's not really relevant.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ferroz

[DarthTHC]

Yes. I've done probably 1000 groups since the lfd tool released that were totally put together without using the dungeon finder to put the group together.

 

So wait... you're saying that not using an optional tool is a totally viable approach for those who don't want to use said optional tool?

 

Wow...

[sempuken]

anyone who doesn't want x-server lfg is asking for this game to fail.

 

All is does it solve problems; there are no downsides.

[Valkirus]

No one forces you to use it in WoW, either. Ever tried getting a dungeon group together without it?

 

 

 

 

That's what I heard. That said, it seems like this topic in particular is for cross realm dungeons, which I am against. Generally, if you queue as 2,3,4 and are respectful, there is little issue. It's the 1 person trying to get his dungeon quests done, which on the surface seems to be who they are trying to help, that takes the brunt of the abuse.

 

It's not every group, every time. Like I say, it seems like only about 20% of the time you draw the bad seed, but at the same time there is no accountability or responsibility for it. Especially seeing how much less strictly this game has been moderated than WoW to this point, I just feel like it would be a headache for me. It could have to do with the fact that my job has me dealing with less than stellar people on a daily basis that just has my patience on end, also.

 

The big advantage to having a cross server LFG tool versus one which is one server side only is the cross server one increases the pool from which to make up the groups dramatically. This would be very apparent on low pop servers esp. With a cross server LFG tool, it makes no difference what the population is on the server you are on. With WoW's cross server Looking for Raid tool...I have succesfully ran the end game content a bunch of times on mulitiple chars ( 6 different ones ). Yes, there are failed runs and my ignore list has grown sence I been using it, but overall....it is a huge success for it's intended purpose.

[Braaaiins]

umm then low pop servers wont feel so low...? what's the problem

[sempuken]

The big advantage to having a cross server LFG tool versus one which is one server side only is the cross server one increases the pool from which to make up the groups dramatically. This would be very apparent on low pop servers esp. With a cross server LFG tool, it makes no difference what the population is on the server you are on. With WoW's cross server Looking for Raid tool...I have succesfully ran the end game content a bunch of times on mulitiple chars ( 6 different ones ). Yes, there are failed runs and my ignore list has grown sence I been using it, but overall....it is a huge success for it's intended purpose.

 

I agree. It is such an amazing feature, I honestly can't believe every game doesn't have one..

 

Comments about it ruining community are so silly, they aren't really worth responding to...the upsides are 100000000000 fold.

[DarthKhaos]

The temptation to take all the loot without any consequence is what turns people into this. Also the fact that to the point of hitting that queue button, most players have not yet had chance to try out tanking, healing, crowd control or any kind of group play, so yes, that button technically does have a lot of power.

 

In lieu of this, I am a huge supporter of breaking down realm barriers, and cross realm everything. How we still have realm based restrictions these days is baffling to me.

I agree about breaking down the realm/server barrier. If I could zip on over to play with friends I made on another server or they can come to mine and we can hang out together then I'm all for cross server. But until then I'd like to play with people who I can interact with more than that one time in that flashpoint.

[anaz]

You could try posting something factual instead... as it is you're just asserting that your option is fact.

 

The exact same thing you are doing. We are merely giving are posting our personal opinion as to why we think the cross server LFG tool is a bad idea.

 

Cool; I'd like one. How about we have them add it, I use it and you don't? Sounds good to me.

 

I'd love for it to be as simple as that be it simply isn't. The decreased communication requirements between players brought on by this tool would affect the community as a whole and consequently me. Why would people bother joining my group that would take so much longer if they can simply use the LFG tool and get it done so muc faster?

 

No, that's blatantly false; people spent less time sitting in cities right after the lfd tool was released. I am not talking about about realm only LFG tool, I am talking about a cross server one. Prior to lfd, they had to go to dalaran and spam chat looking for people to do the daily heroic or daily regular. Some did, but they didn't have to, you can simply join channel you want from where you are. Even if they did they would at least have to interact with other players while they were doing it and not have some tool do it for them. After lfd they tended to go out and do dailies while waiting for a group. All the time they could have spent interacting with other players getting a group together while doing dailies (albeit at a slower pace)

 

 

 

This is exactly the same as it was immediately prior to lfd.

 

See someone spamming for more for their group? /w ele shaman, dps ... get invited. No one said anything more than hi or bye. Everyone knew what to do through the instance, and it was simple.

 

That rarely happened and with much less frequency then before the LFG tool. (1) The dungeons required some communication (2) If someone responds you can then have the opportunity of some sort of communication going i.e. what gear they have, have they run the instance before etc. With a LFG tool, all further communication is pointless. The problem with the LFG tool is that it makes things TOO efficient. It makes many interactions among players while preparing for an instance redundant.

 

sometimes you'd get a more chatty group; just like now: sometimes you'll get a more chatty group. That assuming that the players actually go out of their way to talk instead of being required to with out a x server LFG tool.

 

If you got invited by a friend you might have had a more chatty group; just like now: if you get invited by a friend and then queue up, you have a more chatty group.

 

lfd did not change this in any way.

 

That's not actually a hindrance with a full set of cross server tools (which is what many people are asking for); with the battle tag system there's no reason for that to be a problem any more; the only reason there was actually a problem is that RealID was so poorly designed.

 

All that is redundant when an LFG tool makes communication between players irrelevant when it comes to assembly or doing an instance (dungeons being so easy doesn't help either.)

 

The game had already been like that for multiple years; lfd did nothing to change it, for good or for bad.

 

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

the cross server lfg tool is totally independent to whether the community is destroyed.

 

Replies in red.

 

It also helps to make the guild redundant i.e. Why would I bother asking my guild for help or possible joiners if LFG tool does it so much faster? <---- That's the kind of mentality the a cross server LFG tool brings.

 

I do like the the greater efficiency an LFG tool brings, but not if it sacrifices a large aspect communicating with other players.It decreases the need for players to talk to each other which is a very bad idea. It helped turned WoW into a mere gear acquiring exercise and nothing more.

Edited March 26, 2012 by anaz

[anaz]

anyone who doesn't want x-server lfg is asking for this game to fail.

 

All is does it solve problems; there are no downsides.

 

(1) Because every MMO has one except for this one

 

(2) There are plenty of downsides, you just can't see them.

[Phlem]

With the state of PvP queues right now in both the 10-49 bracket and the level 50 bracket, I would hazard to say that cross realm PvP queues are inevitable. I'm on a rather healthy server and I wait an average of 20-90 minutes for a warzone in the 10-49 bracket. It's been awhile since I've PvP'd on my level 50, but I imagine that it's just as bad, if not worse.