No Cross Realm LFG tool please!

[DarthTHC]

Will this work for pvp? the Cross Realm idea Cuz iam a bit sick of getting the same "randoms" over and over on WZ. Iam not a regular player, but i like to pvp a bit when the pve is dead, and i always get the same premades on the server. At lvl 50 seems that the random players disapper from server

 

thx

 

They're working on cross-server PvP. Apparently it's OK for PvP but somehow not OK for PvE.

[ferroz]

You are doing the exact same thing in support of it

No, I'm doing something quite different to support it: I'm giving facts that aren't based on anecdotal evidence.

 

I'm not using any anecdotal evidence to support a cross server lfg; I'm just using that to negating your arguments; presenting contradictory anecdotal evidence is sufficient, since you're only offering arguments that are opinion based or anecdotal evidence.

 

If you want to do the same thing, you'll need to do the first part; you're not.

 

We both are offering personal experience from WoW in order to support out claims.

No, YOU are offering personal experience from wow to support your claim

I am offering personal experience from wow to point out that you aren't actually giving any evidence at all and that asserting personal experience is not a substitute for actual facts.

 

those are quite different things.

 

 

Of course, I'm also pointing out factual things that are independent of personal experience. A quick and easy example: you can friend people cross server in wow, talk to them, and run instances with them in the future; claims to the contrary are just false statements.

 

No that's not it. I ran pugs and non-pugs post and pre.

Maybe you did...

 

 

Well that's great for people who have already an existing base of friends in other group with it. That, however, would not be the case for new players who are going into the game fresh and knows no one who plays it. It's therefore safe to assume that person would rely heavily on the LFG tool.

No, it's possible for new players to make friends and group the same way. We have some of those in my guild in wow, who started playing after lfd.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the fact that you personally will continue to be able to play the way that you want to... you can just choose not to use it.

 

Also, with a LFD x-server tool restricts the need communicating with players you have never met due to the reduced need to.

False; the need is exactly the same (ie, no actual socializing is needed either way).

 

if you're going to argue that spamming fleet contributes something to the community of the game... well, there's not much I can say to that other that "you're out of your mind"

 

Before the LFD tool at least two of the group had to travel to the location to summon the others.

Press 1 for summons

 

That doesn't actually add any player interaction.

 

Yes, but not all players are doing heroics, some players are leveling and want to a instance etc.

No, those people just didn't generally do instances, because there wasn't any reason to because of how long it took to get groups together.

 

In fact, this is the place where the LFD added the most: it got people actually doing dungeons before heroics. This isn't speculation or opinion or even anecdotal evidence: the lfd brought new life to the sub level-cap dungeons.

 

Everything is automatic with a x-server LFD and the need to communicate with new players is minimal and consequently forging new relationships within the game is minimal.

This is exactly the same as immediately prior to lfd. The need to communicate with new players was minimal

 

Yes, it is. If you ask for something and I respond, regardless of the level of further communication, we are interacting.

No, sorry; you're free to think that if you want, but you're in the vast minority here. Even most of the most die-hard ant lfgers agree on this point.

 

Other then the obligatory "hi" and "bye" there was minimal interaction between players in comparison to before. At least in my experience.

Like I said:

that happened exactly as often pre lfd tool as it did post lfd tool. The lfd too did not, in any way, cause a change in that behavior. People had stopped socializing in pugs as the norm looooong before the lfd tool; the behavior that you're trying to blame on lfd clearly wasn't caused by it, or even exacerbated by it.

 

Exactly, when the game required some tactics and it was difficult it required communication. The decreased difficulty along with LFD x server tool removed much of player interaction.

No... BEFORE the lfd tool, they were roflstomp easy. get in, and gogogo. This is not something that changed with the lfd tool.

 

there was not any more need for communicating in heroics before lfd than there was after; the addition of lfd did not reduce the amount of communication needed.

 

Having trouble find a player? you'll have to communicate.

Nope; people just continued to spam in dalaran. That's not communicating.

 

It was but there was a large social element to the game that LFD helped to reduce drastically.

Nope, not in the slightest. There was nothing social that was lost via cross server lfd. Edited March 26, 2012 by ferroz

[Erasimus]

Cross Realm PvP is fine, especially if they match pre-made to pre-made and not pre-mades to PuGs.

 

I'm torn about LFG for dungeons. The reason people complain that it ruined the community in WoW is that, for many people, it did away with the need to be in a guild to see the content. It is a very casual oriented feature. They did add a bunch of guild "perks" to make joining and staying in a guild more appealing.

 

It should also be noted that the mechanics in the LFG raids are toned down from the mechanics in the "normal" and "hard" raids.

 

What did it do to WoW?

 

1. Everyone could see the content - Good for casuals, irritated some of the hardcore raiders.

 

2. Opened up new vistas for griefing - There have been numerous instances of people purposely pulling mobs to wipe the group over and over. Since they go in with a few like minded idiots it is difficult to get rid of them. Since new people constantly arrive via the LFG tool this kind of griefing can go on a long time.

 

3. Along with the downsizing of raids from 40 to 25 to 10, over the years, it has pretty much spelled the end of pure raiding guilds. I was a hard-core raider for years in WoW (starting soon after the initial release) but I'm much more casual now. Probably why I'm playing SWTOR

 

SWTOR OPs are so casual at the moment that there is hardly any need to tone them down for LFG. I'm not sure if the WoW type griefers will be an issue or not.

 

(P.S. WoW also has an iLevel gear requirement as well as level requirements for entry into dungeons/raids via the LFG tool. Not that this has helped a whole lot since you still see people in the LFG groups with inappropriate gear, no gems, no enchants, and no skills.)

Edited March 26, 2012 by Erasimus

[Trucked]

I played WOW before and after LFD/LFR and one thing i can say for certain is that it does destroy any sense of server community!!

[navarh]

Purely, for some, an analogy.

…

Before you say "but you can still do that", I would point out what a poster said about going in to Stormwind or Orgrimmar and asking for a group and "being laughed at"

lie

because there is no need for any of that community to work

ever heard of raid (operation)?

There is the loss of community, the destruction of guilds, yes guilds

lie

"there was no more guild runs because they just used LFG".

it is reveal of true quality of your "friends" and "guild", they was FORCED to your guild to get a chance for party

 

such guilds indeed will die

[Emilmedhinken]

How can it kill something that doesnt exists? (the community , that is,, lol)

Try playing on a low pop server

[anaz]

No, I'm doing something quite different to support it: I'm giving facts that aren't based on anecdotal evidence.

 

I'm not using any anecdotal evidence to support a cross server lfg; I'm just using that to negating your arguments; presenting contradictory anecdotal evidence is sufficient, since you're only offering arguments that are opinion based or anecdotal evidence.

 

Evidence?

 

If you want to do the same thing, you'll need to do the first part; you're not.

 

No, YOU are offering personal experience from wow to support your claim

I am offering personal experience from wow to point out that you aren't actually giving any evidence at all and that asserting personal experience is not a substitute for actual facts.

 

Quote from me: "Asserting personal experience is not a subsitute for actual facts"

 

Apparently your personal experience is evidence and mine isn't. Definition of evidence: "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." Both our opinions fall underneath that definition. Stating what mechanics are is to state facts (as they can be easily verified). Stating their affects is subjective and can vary due to experience, that's what we are discussing.

 

those are quite different things.

 

 

Of course, I'm also pointing out factual things that are independent of personal experience. A quick and easy example: you can friend people cross server in wow, talk to them, and run instances with them in the future; claims to the contrary are just false statements.

 

Maybe you did...

 

 

No, it's possible for new players to make friends and group the same way. We have some of those in my guild in wow, who started playing after lfd.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the fact that you personally will continue to be able to play the way that you want to... you can just choose not to use it.

 

False; the need is exactly the same (ie, no actual socializing is needed either way).

 

if you're going to argue that spamming fleet contributes something to the community of the game... well, there's not much I can say to that other that "you're out of your mind"

 

Press 1 for summons

 

That doesn't actually add any player interaction.

 

No, those people just didn't generally do instances, because there wasn't any reason to because of how long it took to get groups together.

 

In fact, this is the place where the LFD added the most: it got people actually doing dungeons before heroics. This isn't speculation or opinion or even anecdotal evidence: the lfd brought new life to the sub level-cap dungeons.

 

This is exactly the same as immediately prior to lfd. The need to communicate with new players was minimal

 

No, sorry; you're free to think that if you want, but you're in the vast minority here. Even most of the most die-hard ant lfgers agree on this point.

 

The dictionary disagrees with you: "The imparting or exchanging of information or news." It has nothing to do with opinion.

 

Like I said:

that happened exactly as often pre lfd tool as it did post lfd tool. The lfd too did not, in any way, cause a change in that behavior. People had stopped socializing in pugs as the norm looooong before the lfd tool; the behavior that you're trying to blame on lfd clearly wasn't caused by it, or even exacerbated by it.

 

No... BEFORE the lfd tool, they were roflstomp easy. get in, and gogogo. This is not something that changed with the lfd tool.

 

there was not any more need for communicating in heroics before lfd than there was after; the addition of lfd did not reduce the amount of communication needed.

 

Nope; people just continued to spam in dalaran. That's not communicating.

 

Nope, not in the slightest. There was nothing social that was lost via cross server lfd.

 

I have a giving you clear examples of how LFD server tools would reduce communication but you have just outright ignored them.

 

i.e.:

 

This at least opens the gates to further queries either player may have i.e. "do you have healing gear?" The same questions could be made in LFD, but the party leader would at least be prompted to go out of his/her way to sort out the problem due to the trouble of getting new players. This increase communications between players. This would very rarely happen in LFD x-server due to the ease of replacing the player.

 

When assembling a group or having tackling an instead one of the first things you do is ask your guild for help. This is reduced largely when new players can be brought in so easily. Also, i found people were increasingly aggressive to failing players due to the ease of their replacement, the inefficiences promoted helpful play because that player couldn't be replaced so easily.

 

Before the LFD tool at least two of the group had to travel to the location to summon the others. With a server only tool they often communicated with other players in other to get a group together i.e. "Do you have a tank that wants to join in your guild" instead of having a tool that makes such questions redundant.

Edited March 26, 2012 by anaz

[Tamanous]

There is no need for cross server lfg tool there are enough players on the planet to begin with. Why invite a player from a planet on a server with 9 players on it to another with 11 players on it?

 

What is better is to have a planet with 50-75+ players on them. The game would benefit more by having server groups share planets past the starter and home planet and excluding space station.

 

More players = more chances for making groups. Servers groups still localizes players into a small enough pool to get to know many you will be seeing. You can merge a few servers without even phasing many planets. 10-20 players per mid-high level planets multiplied by 4 servers still won't even phase that planet unless some sort of event is occurring and even so the tech exists to handle a phase cap.

 

This should have been done day 1 frankly.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Tamanous

[Toxen]

Is there gonna be a LFG Tool in 1.2?

 

If not, I'm gonna sit down and really think if Pandas are such a bad thing.

[Darnu]

No, it doesn't cause that at all.

 

just in general, you're not being very clear; your posts would benefit from adding some white space.

 

So?

 

advertising that you are carrying people through content (or the lack therof) doesn't really have anything to do with the topic at hand.

 

No, I'm not really interested in taking a sick day to play a video game; nor am I going to skip out on dinner with my family... That's why I'm interested in having a tool that works, that allows for fast group formation, and that doesn't punish people when someone in the group has a rl issue.

 

 

 

Because it does. I'll have near instant groups any time I want them, day or night. DPS will experience significantly faster group formation than they do now.

 

No, it's really just caused by the fact that getting a group together takes too long for people to bother with them at low level.

 

No, it solves far more than it creates

 

it doesn't create any problems

it solves problems

 

the latter is a non empty set, and the former is an empty set; a non-empty set holds more items than an empty set.

 

Accountability is a myth.

 

No the exact same grouping experience that you can have now is available when there's a cross server lfg tool.

 

Nah, I'd rather have the full suite of cross server tools; none of those actually fix the problems, while cross server lfg does.

 

 

No, you can certainly group without ever using the cross server tool; people do it in wow to this day: they only group with friends/guild and only queue through the tool for the specific rewards that it gives.

 

exactly my point. Where are all these helpful players? Who see someone log in every day, spamming and get together with their guild (which could actually be their community which they don't want destroyed) and take pity on this person they see day in day out spamming for a run? And explain the fights etc? Where IS this community that must be preserved at the expense of being able to play the game? Oh yeah. In wow the "community" was all arguing in trade why some wipe happened in a dungeon. Someone ninja'd something. ALL DAY EVERY DAY until LFG became cross-server. It was tiring and annoying and meaningless. For everyone thinking that person calling this stuff out to the server was being helpful, there were 10 others thinking that person was a self-righteous egotistical maniac who you wouldn't want to meet. And probably several hundred who didn't care. Fighting over dungeon gear? Classy.

 

 

And also someone brought up what Dream Paragon did in a LFR which isn't even what we're talking about, but still. Would it hurt to get it right? What they did? They were entirely guild runs. No pugs in them. They spammed them over and over again and there was a bug that allowed them to roll on gear over and over again (on the same characters) from the same bosses and they exploited it and did that.

 

All I'm hearing is that there are people saying that cross-real LFG means there aren't so many more conversations "Do you know a tank?" (never mind that's pretty much the extent of conversation) beyond altering it to "do you know a tank or healer we can q up with?", they don't want some instrument that could prevent THEM destroying the community with their incessant fighting in trade and they began playing at a time when people were more abundant than other times and so they've met the people they're happy to keep playing with and aren't happy to play with strangers even from their own server, so that should mean these strangers can't play with anyone. And sorry, destroyed community? All it's done is make it so if you meet someone new you can queue up for dungeons with them on the quiet, you don't have to announce it to the rest of the server that you've got someone to run a run with and need more people to make it happen.

 

Like it or not the community means ALL THE PLAYERS. Not just you and your guild/friends list and people on the same server as you for those times you're willing or forced to pug with them. Which I don't see too many "community-minded" people doing too often. Certainly not often enough to make the game worth playing for people who's friends list is full of offliners and guilds being populated with people who have quit (subbed or not makes no difference to me in they're not playing).

[DarthTHC]

Is there gonna be a LFG Tool in 1.2?

 

If not, I'm gonna sit down and really think if Pandas are such a bad thing.

 

LFG will be after 1.2. Initial implementation will not be x-server. So those of you on dead servers are still screwed.

[Bleadz]

Just wait till we start seeing the main bodies of raid guilds recruiting only their friends or geared referrals that've applied on their guild forum, gone through whatever interview process the guild administrative body thinks is good and calling for pugs in general gets you pilloried for a half hour.

 

*: terrible

 

You really think SW ToR will last long enough for this? There are so few lessons learned with ToR that I sadly think it was doomed from a poorly conceived birth....

[Paralassa]

Because this thread has exceeded our threshold of replies, we have recreated it for you. Please continue your discussion here. Edited March 27, 2012 by Paralassa