Should SW:TOR start de-emphasizing the trinity?

[VulcanLogic]

Yeah, what gets overlooked is that "support" is really the 3rd party of the trinity. DPS is what people who are too lazy to do any of the real roles are lumped into.

 

TOR really should have branked out, with buff/debuff/cc and a multiple pet classes.

 

In a well designed game, sub par DPS will wipe the raid.

[Calei]

Wrong - you will still need healing because someone is going to get hit or developers will nerf boss damage so that it is not even that challenging.

 

It will be a zergfest like CoH. That can be fun but don't act like eliminating tank/healer will suddenly result in some new form of challenging encounters.

 

A healing ability can heal 2 types of damage.

 

Avoidable (patch player mistake).

Unavoidable (designer mechanic).

 

The avoidable type makes healing optional. The unavoidable type makes healing necessary. Designers can use a mix of both but, I advocate all damage should be avoidable. The whole idea of removing the tank and healer role is to remove the necessity of these roles so that all players regardless of class can participate in all content.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Calei

[NermalDetonator]

Not true.

 

The very existance of the tank role requires a healer. Eliminate the tank and the healer is also gone. Make the damge avoidable and healers are no longer dedicated. You can replace the entire healing class by giving everyone a potion.

 

I never understood why a someone has to babysit someone elses health bar. If players had to manage thier own health bars, errors could not be covered up and you'd have a much easier time seeing who the weakest links are just by seeing who keeps dying.

 

So basically just make the game a twitch based console fighting game, with other people around.

[Drewser]

A healing ability can heal 2 types of damage.

 

Avoidable (patch player mistake).

Unavoidable (designer mechanic).

 

The avoidable type makes healing optional. The unavoidable type makes healing necessary. Designers can use a mix of both but, I advocate all damage should be avoidable. The whole idea of removing the tank and healer role is to remove the necessity of these roles so that all players regardless of class can participate in all content.

 

A twitched based MMO? Talk about a small niche market.

 

Not to mention lag/connection issues would make that format a nightmare.

[Calei]

So basically just make the game a twitch based console fighting game, with other people around.

 

Twitch based games have different physics and projectile/collision detection systems. It will allow developers to design content with multiple layers of complexity due to additional physics.

 

MMO's will eventually be more action based. The players are already demanding this. We just need a development studio to design an engine to handle hundreds or thousands of players on screen with those types of physics.

[MaverickXIV]

The only system I would find even close to as challenging as the Trinity is some action-based MMORPG where each player needs to avoid attacks as precisely as in, say, Devil May Cry. Simply moving out of a reticule on the ground isn't enough of a challenge, each player needs to see some boss ability telegraphed and then execute some sort of combo move to avoid it in a few seconds.

 

Anything less, without the trinity, will just be too easy.

[pinkfreudHC]

A twitched based MMO? Talk about a small niche market.

 

Not to mention lag/connection issues would make that format a nightmare.

 

High end raiding is pretty much that already.

 

I'd consider GBAOE that you need to get out of as soon as you see it (1 sec and you're dead) pretty "twitch."

[Sleeptastic]

Don't worry guys, Planetside 2 is coming out soon

[Drewser]

Twitch based games have different physics and projectile/collision detection systems. It will allow developers to design content with multiple layers of complexity due to additional physics.

 

MMO's will eventually be more action based. The players are already demanding this. We just need a development studio to design an engine to handle hundreds or thousands of players on screen with those types of physics.

 

Not this decade. Though I would guess the block is more on the connection speeds from users to servers and vice versa.

[Derekloffin]

Twitch based games have different physics and projectile/collision detection systems. It will allow developers to design content with multiple layers of complexity due to additional physics.

 

MMO's will eventually be more action based. The players are already demanding this. We just need a development studio to design an engine to handle hundreds or thousands of players on screen with those types of physics.

 

No thanks. If I want my twitch fix I'll play a FPS or a fighter. Plenty of twitch games out there already. I want to play are RPG.

[NermalDetonator]

this i'm still not buying it that the game won't turn into a dps zerg fest

 

Either specialization will be rewarded, in which players will artificially create roles, or hybridization will be the best, in which case you just have a bunch of tank-mages, as people pick the same suite of (overpowered) abilities.

[NermalDetonator]

In a well designed game, sub par DPS will wipe the raid.

 

Never seen it. I've been playing since EQ1., and DPS is always the ******* role. Those who can, tank/heal/support. Those who cant, pew pew.

[Drewser]

Never seen it. I've been playing since EQ1., and DPS is always the ******* role. Those who can, tank/heal/support. Those who cant, pew pew.

 

I have healed and DPS'd raids- never tanked for any high level stuff, don't really enjoy melee - but I see little difference between healing and DPS'ing.

[Qoojo]

Many players think that the trinity is "Tank-Healer-DPS", but it's really "Tank-Healer-CC". It should be emphasized more. Encounters should require the use CC and for players to watch when they use AE, and what they attack.

 

The past few years MMO encounters have become quite simple, and little strategy is ever needed beyond spam AE and skills as fast as possible.

[terminova]

Never seen it. I've been playing since EQ1., and DPS is always the ******* role. Those who can, tank/heal/support. Those who cant, pew pew.

 

Some bosses are DPS races to beat the enrage timer, and if the DPS isn't up to it because one or all are doing sub-par DPS for whatever reason you're going to wipe. Just because someone isn't tanking or healing doesn't mean they cannot, it could simply mean they don't want to because the tank and healer tend to take a lot of the blame for wipes even when there was nothing they could do about it.

[Lethality]

Twitch based games have different physics and projectile/collision detection systems. It will allow developers to design content with multiple layers of complexity due to additional physics.

 

MMO's will eventually be more action based. The players are already demanding this. We just need a development studio to design an engine to handle hundreds or thousands of players on screen with those types of physics.

 

They will not be more action based just as turn-based strategic RPGs still exist. It's a different user experience and playstyle. MMOs with rules-based combat will rule the day for the foreseeable future.

[Megaphys]

getting rid of the trinity doesnt mean no one has any defensive abilities and no one has any healing abilities, it means that these abilities are not tied to only one class.

 

Take basket ball, you have a player, he can shoot pass and defend and move the ball.

 

The trinity is the equivalent of making it so

 

all a shooter can do effectively is shoot

all a passer can do is pass and move the ball.

All a defender can do is defend.

 

this means if you dont have any one of these classes you cant play the game, even if you have 15 players. because a defender cannot pass. it is actually very unnatural. Getting rid of the trinity means, every body can pass shoot and move the ball. Some people may be more suited to certain tasks, or have comfort zone in a certain position, but they can step up and perform any role based on their own ability.

 

this is what getting rid of the trinity means, not that there will be no defenders, but it wont fall to one person to defend, not that there is no passers, but anybody can move the ball, though some may be more suited to it than others.

 

And no, you dont have to have everyone have only one static role to have strategy.

[complexxLT]

So eliminating the fact that you need tank healing and dps what exactly are you looking for all dps?

 

So no need to heal and no need for someone being able to take heavy hits

 

So basically bosses would stand there and hit like wet noodles while 8 dps just pew pew him down

 

Sounds like a fun game....

 

You eliminate the need for tanks and healers you eliminate the concept of raiding and bosses as well

 

Although in a pvp only based game it would be fantastic imo, but any end game pve would be gone

 

That is exactly why GW2 will not have end game PvE. (5man content is not what I call end game PvE).

Edited February 21, 2012 by complexxLT

[cs_Kimmo]

Now for the 64,000$ question:

What's wrong with trinity system and why should BioWare move TOR away from it?

 

EDIT: Calei, I just saw your fail answer, no need to answer again.

Edited February 21, 2012 by cs_Kimmo

[Farho]

Getting rid of the trinity doesn't strictly mean no roles at all. There are extended models with 7-8 roles and you need 3 of them at a given time, but they work differently. In these models every class can make multiple roles at a time or by switching stance.

 

Problem with the trinity system is that you have to design every single boss fight considering each role in the trinity (which leads to tank and spank), make sure you maximize their use (hence the big hits on tank), embed an enrage timer to test the DPS and all of this leads to no creative mechanic can be implemented in a boss fight and no creative tactic is allowed to use.

 

I've raided hardcore for 6 years in 2 different games and I can assure you the best fights I've seen were the ones needed the least tanking and more tactics for everyone.

 

So actually I think I've got an idea that can be viable and fun.

 

Every player receives healing with diminishing returns where each 5k healing puts a stackable debuff for 30 seconds that reduces effective healing on that player by 1%. Thus tanking should be often rotated and no class is a dedicated tank.

 

3 out of 8 classes can effectively tank with just a stance change that makes the primary stat for that class into a defense stat (hence without changing gear it reduces your damage and raises your mitigation and aggro). Other 3 classes of the rest can effectively kite the boss but their slowing abilities also have diminishing returns so that they can't effectively kite for more than 30 seconds. 6 of the given 8 classes can heal with a stance change but they run out of mana if they heal for too long, say, over 1 min, but can regen their mana with another role such as dps or debuffer. So no class is a dedicated healer.

 

Ok this is just written up in 5 minutes but I guess a developer company can do better. What do you guys think?

Edited February 21, 2012 by Farho

[kitharen]

The holy trinity is the foundation of lots of good MMOs, why change this? And what would be the better system? I don't like games with every class being a one man army.

[Kakarris]

It would be easier to just de-emphasize the MMO part of the game and make it a really bad single player RPG.

[deusBAAL]

Removing the "Trinity" would mean, that it all boils down to DPS

With eevryone being the same and needing key skills (being it certain abilities eg interrupts or shieldings or just being able to move around in a certain pattern) to beat the scripted Fights.

 

 

WOW did make dynamics more simple. They progged their game with the goal to remove all hassle and grinding, that EQ back in the days got.

 

 

Remember EQ?

Huge raid groups and (needed) roles were:

 

I Maintank + Secondary Tank as backup, usually organized as main-assist and secondary-assist (known as MT,ST,MA and SA)

 

II Healers... anyone remember the CCH? I dual-played a healer in raids for complete-heal-chain 8-)

 

III dps (everyone, with teh high dps main job to stay alive and not to out-aggro the MT)

 

IV CC ...which came down to the enchanter class and mesmerising stuff. Depending on encounter this could also be done by offtank or kiters.

 

 

With SWTOR very small OP groups this diversity is not possible nor wanted. Most swtor classes got CC abilties build in, making this an innate ability of the DPS classes in SWTOR. Certain distinguishing support skills (like certain heavy hp buffs -clerics and shamans- or certain high regen buffs -shamans and mana regen of the enchanter-) are also not wanted in SWTOR with the goal that for no encounter would ever a single-certain class be needed. You will never have the situation in SWTOR that 30 people show up for raid and everyone has to go home because no chanter is available. That is not a bad thing, isnt it.

In SWTOR all you need is a mix of the trinity, with tanks and healers being able to do some fair dps too and most dps being able to help out with heals, too.

[deusBAAL]

So actually I think I've got an idea that can be viable and fun.

 

Every player receives healing with diminishing returns where each 5k healing puts a stackable debuff for 30 seconds that reduces effective healing on that player by 1%. Thus tanking should be often rotated and no class is a dedicated tank.

 

3 out of 8 classes can effectively tank with just a stance change that makes the primary stat for that class into a defense stat (hence without changing gear it reduces your damage and raises your mitigation and aggro). Other 3 classes of the rest can effectively kite the boss but their slowing abilities also have diminishing returns so that they can't effectively kite for more than 30 seconds. 6 of the given 8 classes can heal with a stance change but they run out of mana if they heal for too long, say, over 1 min, but can regen their mana with another role such as dps or debuffer. So no class is a dedicated healer.

 

Ok this is just written up in 5 minutes but I guess a developer company can do better. What do you guys think?

 

 

I dont see the point.

Add an "switch Spec" button to SWTOR and you got just that. And as far as I know, it is planned to add a 2nd spec safe button. Though most people seem to want that for a PVE/PVP setup for their specs.

The diminishing effects debuff sound rather complicated and not muc fun at all, really. So then you need 3 tanks in rotation and the dps and healers in rotation. To em that sounds like an unnecessary hassle and rather complicated, forcing people to play a 2nd role that they may not even want for their class.

[Farho]

I dont see the point.

Add an "switch Spec" button to SWTOR and you got just that. And as far as I know, it is planned to add a 2nd spec safe button. Though most people seem to want that for a PVE/PVP setup for their specs.

The diminishing effects debuff sound rather complicated and not muc fun at all, really. So then you need 3 tanks in rotation and the dps and healers in rotation. To em that sounds like an unnecessary hassle and rather complicated, forcing people to play a 2nd role that they may not even want for their class.

 

Does anyone at all have fun from playing the same role for a few years over and over? Yeah it's meant to give each class a 2nd or 3rd role that can be actually played within the same fight.

 

If I'm mistaken and everyone else except me loves playing one role all the way, then we wouldn't be even discussing the trinity system.

 

Note: the switch spec button that's coming to SWTOR with 1.2 or 1.3 will still require you to have 2 sets of gear and switch them each time so it's not a switch from tank to dps button really.