Should SW:TOR start de-emphasizing the trinity?

[Eepinephrine]

Whether you like the game in its current state or not, you can't argue that the tank/dps/healer theme-park content isn't starting to get stale, regardless of how creative they get with things such as boss fights. Guild Wars 2 and WoW (in its upcoming expansion) are slowly beginning to move away from a system where min/maxing you character and spamming button on your UI in accordance to a role you determined at level 10. While there is variation to how you play your role, (respecing to a different role if your class allows it or a tree that handles it damage output through different abilities) it doesn't change the endgame experience to a significant degree. Dpsing as a merc-aresnal is going to follow all the same tactics in a fight as a merc-pyro, they will simply spam different buttons.

 

The point here is an MMO in 2012 "late to the party" in the theme-park trinity gear grind?

I'd argue it is; looking at WoWs subscriber decline is good evidence of this. While certainly the expansion struggled with an identity crisis, (Blizzard trying to cater to hardcore players and casual players at the same time) it didn't add or remove very much from the game, in terms of now ideas and concepts. The year long bleed of subs I'd wager is more in-part to people being flat out tired of getting a new area to kill stuff and loot for "epics". While most gaming genres take a long time to innovate, they eventually do change (RPGs when Zelda:OOT and Halo:CE for FPSs<---/flamesuit on). MMOs were a niche market before WoW, and it was WoW that set the standard for attracting investor money to the genre. However, this was almost 8 years ago, and if asked "Do you want more WoW with nicer graphics and maybe one core-mechanic tweaked?" Most MMOers would say no.

 

Is logging in once a day to do a quest you've done more times than you care to count fun at all? What about killing a raid boss you've killed for weeks on end? Removing the mundane holy trinity is a good stepping stone to move MMOs into a new era. While it can't solve all the issues of an over-saturated marketplace that this game suffers from in my opinion. It would be an easy stepping stone to differentiating this game from the crowd, because as it stands now, the only thing this game offers that is different is a unique leveling experience, but that doesn't entail subscriptions, as any MMO needs to stay relevant.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Eepinephrine

[Knewt]

It would take a massive overhaul of everything in this game to remove the trinity. It's too late for that.

[Ossos]

Although you don't realize it, you've basically said "Should Ford convert all their F-150s to boats?".

[Lazzer]

I hope so, as it now stands none of the raids or flash points are difficult they just become undoable if you don't have a tank in the right gear or the correct amount of DPS output. There is only one simple way to complete each and it requires a specific set-up.

[Eepinephrine]

It would take a massive overhaul of everything in this game to remove the trinity. It's too late for that.

I disagree, removing the need for a "tank" would almost eliminate the need for dedicated healers. Making the fights more about situational tactics, instead of simple number crunching would also at the same time make them more engaging. That is one of many examples, I'm sure there are more. Maybe it is to late to get the changes in this form of the game. But a company like this already has the expansion nearing alpha development, and it certainly wouldn't be too late to change the mechanics there.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Eepinephrine

[Eepinephrine]

Although you don't realize it, you've basically said "Should Ford convert all their F-150s to boats?".

 

Not the greatest analogy, but if the F-150s aren't selling and the boats are, why not? And to fix the analogy I would say: "Should Ford start focusing on making boats if F-150s aren't selling?"

Edited February 19, 2012 by Eepinephrine

[Calei]

It would take a massive overhaul of everything in this game to remove the trinity. It's too late for that.

 

Not really.

 

All you need is different designers with different ideas. The trinity model isn't hard coded into the game. The enviroment and NPC system designers could trash the tank and healer model in a single patch.

 

You can design a boss enounter without needing a tank. This is not complicated. You can desgin NPC damage to be avoidable thus removing the need for a healer. This is not complicated. You can retool the class tool box with different skills and reblanace them.

 

The only thing you really need are different people with new ideas. Copying and pasting systems that already exist from other games is getting old.

[Excid]

I hope so, as it now stands none of the raids or flash points are difficult they just become undoable if you don't have a tank in the right gear or the correct amount of DPS output. There is only one simple way to complete each and it requires a specific set-up.

 

All raids take 1 tank with an offtank on 2 fights... Finding a tank is hard? If so, then roll one yourself?

[Azzras]

I like the trinity system.

[Eepinephrine]

All raids take 1 tank with an offtank on 2 fights... Finding a tank is hard? If so, then roll one yourself?

 

Right but all flashpoints take 1 tank too, but only have room for 2 dps (the class 90% of the playerbase rolled). So scaling wise: Flashpoint group(xT+xH+x2D) x 2 should = (x2T+x2H+x4D)...? But that isn't true for 80% of the operations (they only need 1 tank). Going a step further is (xT+xH+x2D) x4 = (x4T+x4H+x8D)...? Nope still only 1 tank for 80% of the endgame operations further increasing the role imbalance.

 

But that isn't really on-topic, the issue has nothing to do with finding a tank. It about the content being stale, anyone who has played MMOs in the past hasn't found anything new in terms of endgame content in this game. Being that is was the largest budgeted MMO launch ever and launched in 2012 (8 years after the game that inspired it) is troubling that all of its mechanics already feel massively dated.

[Radubadu]

I like the trinity system.

 

This. I've played one MMO where you didn't necessarily need a tank or healer... CoH... it's a fun game but there's no challenge to it at all. You get a party of 8 of any class and can plow through most of the content.

 

Now if you can think of a way to take away the trinity system without making the game stupidly easy I'd be interested. The only other game I can think of that you could get away with this was FFXI where 3-5 BLM could yoyo a mob so that they never got hit... but then you don't need a trinity you just need everyone to be the same...

[DorkTrooper]

Tanking is good times. I'd rather they added additional roles rather than make everything one big mash-up of overlapping abilities.

[Lazzer]

All raids take 1 tank with an offtank on 2 fights... Finding a tank is hard? If so, then roll one yourself?

 

I have one and a healer and a DPS. The point I'm making is that the method to completing all hard flashpoints and all operations is practically the same: Tank n spank, heal, control any adds and burn down before Boss enrages.

 

It's about variety, it's about being with 3 friends who are playing their favourite classes without having to say "We'll have to swap toons as we can't do this run with these 4 characters".

[chton]

Can some one please point out another system that isn't just a face roll with out requiring the trinity system? I'm serious because basically any attempt to avoid the trinity seems to lead to all the content being easy as hell.

I'm all for a change but I can't see a version that doesn't require trinity style play that provides a challenge.

[Eepinephrine]

Can some one please point out another system that isn't just a face roll with out requiring the trinity system? I'm serious because basically any attempt to avoid the trinity seems to lead to all the content being easy as hell.

I'm all for a change but I can't see a version that doesn't require trinity style play that provides a challenge.

 

Almost all the new MMOs in the past half decade have copied WoW to the letter, so an example that is a clear yea or nay won't come until WoW:MoP and GW2.

[Dayfax]

Can some one please point out another system that isn't just a face roll with out requiring the trinity system? I'm serious because basically any attempt to avoid the trinity seems to lead to all the content being easy as hell.

I'm all for a change but I can't see a version that doesn't require trinity style play that provides a challenge.

 

Or it's stupidly difficult. Blizzard tried this during Wrath in their Trial of the Crusader raid & it failed miserably.

 

You had almost as many mini bosses in a room as players, several of them had CC & interrupts, several more had stuns & snares & for several seconds at the start of the fight, there was no aggro table.

 

What usually ended up happening is that any toon not wearing plate would get CC'd & 1-2 shotted within 5 seconds.

 

It wasn't a bad idea but given class design at the time (every player had a narrowly defined role), it was waaaay too difficult for most groups.

[Relith]

This game is built around the trinity from the ground up. Every tank is expected to do the job equally, every healer equal, every dps, equal. I've played all 3 healer jobs, and I can tell you that while there is some unique abilities each have...they are few and far between. They essentially do their job all the same way (not that they are all equal in abilities mind you). Instead of a HoT, you shoot people as a mercenary, etc. AS A HEALER SPEC, the 3 classes are nearly identical. The only way they really come into their own is as dps spec, but even a lot of that is just reskinning the other abilities of another dps class.

 

There really isn't a lot of flavor in this game (or any mmo anymore) in class design choices. Its not like everquest when you would find groups using charmed pet tanks, fear kiting, etc. This isnt like dark age of camelot where you essentially had something liek 40 unique classes. Makers of MMOs have learned their lessons, you cannot balance classes when everyone has their own niche, because no matter what, people will not be happy.. its too much work. So instead of adding flavor to the players class, they have decide to build upon the experience of playing the game. Voice acting, cut scenes and the like. Thats just the way things are now, I am not judging whether it is better or worse, but you will not get away from the trinity in this game simply because the trinity is simple to understand. The tank and healer are tested by the simple formula of incoming damage< damage healed. DPS is tested by "kill this monster in X seconds or it enrages and starts one shotting everyone." 1 tank, 2 dps, 1 healer, that is the group you are supposed to have in this game. Theres some flashpoints that allow variety in this setup, but not many at all. You will run into an enrage wall more often than not if you veer from this setup. I kind of think this is ********, but....then again, ive never seen an mmo have such an awesome story like this one.

 

The trinity is here to stay, why? Laziness, and allocation of resources to other areas.

[Relith]

Can some one please point out another system that isn't just a face roll with out requiring the trinity system? I'm serious because basically any attempt to avoid the trinity seems to lead to all the content being easy as hell.

I'm all for a change but I can't see a version that doesn't require trinity style play that provides a challenge.

 

I don't know about another whole system, but in everquest for instance you could have some classes charm monsters to act as the tank. Often groups would be charmer+healer+however much dps you could possibly get. Was it unfair to tanks? Yeah, probably, but tbh, most groups just took whoever they could get, tanks (even if they didnt use them, or even a 2nd and 3rd healer.

 

Then there were aggro kiting groups where the monster would get snared, and led around. Uhhh, there were pet tanking groups, fear kiting.....Its been a long time so I have a hard time remembering all the options. But the general rule in these groups were to find a way to get xp without needing a tank and/or possibly a healer. Essentially, classes just had a lot more flexibility in what they could do. Their "toolbox" was gigantic, only limited by the number of spell slots.

 

Then there was the fact that instead of the usual tank/healer/dps trinity, some games mixed up the classes that made up each member of the "trinity". Like, there might be 3 tanks similar to swtor, but one might be master of AE aggro, the other master of self healing, and the third class the poorest at managing aggro, but the best at reducing incoming damage. Then on top of that the classes might have other unique abilities to aid in crowd control, healing, or dps for instance. One healer might be the master of buffs, another the master of debuffs, while a third healer might be the pure healer.

 

As I said in my previous message though, these types of systems proved impossible to balance. The trinity is well tested, simple, and a no brainer. I really cannot imagine any innovation on this front.

[terminova]

Or it's stupidly difficult. Blizzard tried this during Wrath in their Trial of the Crusader raid & it failed miserably.

 

You had almost as many mini bosses in a room as players, several of them had CC & interrupts, several more had stuns & snares & for several seconds at the start of the fight, there was no aggro table.

 

What usually ended up happening is that any toon not wearing plate would get CC'd & 1-2 shotted within 5 seconds.

 

It wasn't a bad idea but given class design at the time (every player had a narrowly defined role), it was waaaay too difficult for most groups.

 

They did something similar previously in part of the Magister's Terrace dungeon where there were 4(?) mobs that pulled together that had no aggro tables. Usually ended in either a wipe or a huge mess.

[Rasheth]

Almost all the new MMOs in the past half decade have copied WoW to the letter, so an example that is a clear yea or nay won't come until WoW:MoP and GW2.

 

Champions Online no trinity system you could basically have any power your wanted. You know what happened? Everyone ended up picking the FOTM powers that performed the best. So you give people alot of choices and once its been analyzed people find the optimal builds and then people start picking less anyway.

 

Only way its going to work really is every single class has to be attractive and viable. Those that aren't as attractive to alot of people will have to not be needed to run PvE or be successful in PvP.

 

I don't know if its possible.

 

As this guy said

 

This. I've played one MMO where you didn't necessarily need a tank or healer... CoH... it's a fun game but there's no challenge to it at all. You get a party of 8 of any class and can plow through most of the content.

 

Now if you can think of a way to take away the trinity system without making the game stupidly easy I'd be interested. The only other game I can think of that you could get away with this was FFXI where 3-5 BLM could yoyo a mob so that they never got hit... but then you don't need a trinity you just need everyone to be the same...

 

^^ City of Heroes alot of the same people that made Champions Online not exactly the same but similar.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Rasheth

[Skoll]

I once played an MMO where the trinity could be totally and utterly ignored: Tabula Rasa. Group content boiled down to everyone whipping out their biggest, baddest shotguns and mindlessly mowing everything down as quickly as possible. Personally I found that incredibly boring.

[Eepinephrine]

This game is built around the trinity from the ground up. Every tank is expected to do the job equally, every healer equal, every dps, equal. I've played all 3 healer jobs, and I can tell you that while there is some unique abilities each have...they are few and far between. They essentially do their job all the same way (not that they are all equal in abilities mind you). Instead of a HoT, you shoot people as a mercenary, etc. AS A HEALER SPEC, the 3 classes are nearly identical. The only way they really come into their own is as dps spec, but even a lot of that is just reskinning the other abilities of another dps class.

 

There really isn't a lot of flavor in this game (or any mmo anymore) in class design choices. Its not like everquest when you would find groups using charmed pet tanks, fear kiting, etc. This isnt like dark age of camelot where you essentially had something liek 40 unique classes. Makers of MMOs have learned their lessons, you cannot balance classes when everyone has their own niche, because no matter what, people will not be happy.. its too much work. So instead of adding flavor to the players class, they have decide to build upon the experience of playing the game. Voice acting, cut scenes and the like. Thats just the way things are now, I am not judging whether it is better or worse, but you will not get away from the trinity in this game simply because the trinity is simple to understand. The tank and healer are tested by the simple formula of incoming damage< damage healed. DPS is tested by "kill this monster in X seconds or it enrages and starts one shotting everyone." 1 tank, 2 dps, 1 healer, that is the group you are supposed to have in this game. Theres some flashpoints that allow variety in this setup, but not many at all. You will run into an enrage wall more often than not if you veer from this setup. I kind of think this is ********, but....then again, ive never seen an mmo have such an awesome story like this one.

 

The trinity is here to stay, why? Laziness, and allocation of resources to other areas.

 

I completely agree, but if their subs are dwindling, if they have anyone with a good sense of saving an investment, they will try something, even if it isn't what I'm proposing. The inherent whining about classes should be something all MMO developers know will happen no matter what. As long as classes are different (even slightly) people will moan to make their class better (warranted or unwarranted). The watering down to make the game more appealing is backfiring in my opinion from a business standpoint. If every other game out there offers watered down classes that fit into one of three roles, then you need to be doing that BETTER than your competitor to succeed. To think Bioware can outmatch Blizzard at something they have been doing for the last 8 years is frankly absurd.

[Megaphys]

at this point it is basically hard to change, they would have to redesign and rebalance every class in the game and every tree. ALso once you create content designed to have one super tough guy specialized into tanking do it, you can send people to do it who are mixed in, not to mention the people really complaining who invested time and gear into specialisation.

 

I too dont love the trinity, and the keep everyone waiting mechanic that usually ends up developing, but to be honest it is not easy to switch, and would at the best take a long time to do properly for this game

[CommonKnowledge]

Whilst it doesn't get rid of the trinity system I don't see why there can't be more variety in class roles; e.g. support, hybrid (actual hybrid not just "oh it can DPS and has a heal"), off tanks, debuffers/afflictors, mezzers, AoE specialists etc... I don't doubt that a creative designer could create something unique and interesting whilst even a mediocre designer could draw from what already exists.

 

The problem I have is that splitting all classes into tanks, healers and DPS is over done and boring as hell. I miss the days of the early WoW where my Shaman was actually a support class who was always welcomed to groups because melee classes wanted Windfury and casters wanted the extra mana regen. Other games like AoC experimented to a degree with interesting class roles; e.g. the Necromancer who was a pet class that swamped enemies with 8 pets, or the Dark Templar who was a leech tank/debuffer.

 

Then you have the classic example of Everquests Bard for the support role. Point is that you don't need to remove tanks, healers and DPS because there's plenty of scope for making what already exists interesting. Star Wars trouble is that it's not interesting in any way shape or form with regards to classes and instead relies on "oh look a lightsaber."

Edited February 19, 2012 by CommonKnowledge

[Eepinephrine]

Champions Online no trinity system you could basically have any power your wanted. You know what happened? Everyone ended up picking the FOTM powers that performed the best. So you give people alot of choices and once its been analyzed people find the optimal builds and then people start picking less anyway.

 

Only way its going to work really is every single class has to be attractive and viable. Those that aren't as attractive to alot of people will have to not be needed to run PvE or be successful in PvP.

 

I don't know if its possible.

 

As this guy said

 

 

 

^^ City of Heroes alot of the same people that made Champions Online not exactly the same but similar.

 

Right, but using that as a "See it doesn't work" isn't really valid due to it being made by a back water developer (Cryptic). It'd be like me saying that the linear FPS (as much as I don't like them personally) games don't work because Rogue Warrior was a terrible game, but it too was made by a back water developer (Rebel). What I should have said is there have been no AAA MMOs that have given the idea a true chance to succeed, but with EQ2 and Wow:MoP on the horizon, we will get a clearer picture then. If Bioware waits to find out, then start developing to change, they will be in a tough spot to say the least.