Mercs and OP get a buff and Sorcs get a nerf in 1.2

[Aaoogaa]

Lets give GZ a little slack. As the representative of the game if he would have come out and stated that yes Sage is the superior healer and we will work on bringing the other healers up to par in the future would be the death kneal for trooper/scoundrel healing. Even though he didn't say it they know it, otherwise there would not have been a post.

 

The issue to me is that class fixes should be the first priority, not pushed off down the road. Current raiders will not switch healers down the road. All the spots are going to get filled with the premier class first then the few remaining spots will be filled with the lesser healers. The minor changes to lesser healers should be happening now before I am forced to chance to DPS trooper to get a raid spot because sages are just that much better.

[Jonis]

For example, we are shifting the healing created by the Kolto Cloud ability to be front loaded in 1.2 to allow it to act as an emergency Area of Effect healing tool.

 

Can someone tell me what "front loaded" means and how it will effect Kolto Cloud/Recuperative Nanotech

[KeltikTwo]

For example, we are shifting the healing created by the Kolto Cloud ability to be front loaded in 1.2 to allow it to act as an emergency Area of Effect healing tool.

 

Can someone tell me what "front loaded" means and how it will effect Kolto Cloud/Recuperative Nanotech

 

 

Front loaded usually means in a more immediate form. a clean heal effect rather than a hot for example.

[RuQu]

For example, we are shifting the healing created by the Kolto Cloud ability to be front loaded in 1.2 to allow it to act as an emergency Area of Effect healing tool.

 

Can someone tell me what "front loaded" means and how it will effect Kolto Cloud/Recuperative Nanotech

 

Currently Kolto Cloud ticks every 3 seconds for 15 seconds, and each tick is equal, and has a 12s cooldown.

 

To front load it would mean that the earlier ticks heal for more, the later ticks for less.

 

So if you currently heal for 1000 total, 200 per tick, you would still heal for 200 total, but you might heal for 400, 300, 150, 100, 50.

 

This would do two things.

 

One, you could clip the last tick by recasting at 12s when it comes off of cooldown and get a boost in your HPS, which you can't do now because the new ticks are just as strong as the ones you replaced. With front loading, you would replace a 50 with a 400. That's an improvement.

 

It also changes the use a little, in that currently you might precast it knowing damage was about to come in, to slow down the drop in people's health.

 

Under the new system, you would never pre-cast it, but would cast it after they initially take damage. So on the Soa platforms, for instance, you might cast it before jumping down now, but you would always wait til after in the future.

 

While this particular shift could be seen as a playstyle difference, the first, pre-casting, strategy only works when the damage is predictable. The new, front-loading strategy has more emergency recovery capability.

[SheepishOne]

AoE healing probably won't fix all problems, but it's a great start. I don't have any issues with what's been said. Those are large changes that have been stated; they change gameplay. Smaller steps are preferable, even if Mercs/Ops inability to walk currently seems unbearable.

 

The same people who think fixing the double-cast exploit on Sorcs Resurgence is a nerf think that Shockwater was really intended for healing.

[Azkit]

I absolutely love when people refer to fixing a broken or bugged mechanic as a "nerf".

 

If I have a pie, it could be round and it could also be delicious. The fact that the pie is round does not mean that it's impossible for it be delicious. The same is true of patch changes. A change could both be a bug fix and a nerf. The fact that the change is a bug fix does not mean that it's impossible for it to be a nerf.

 

"Bug fix" and "nerf" are not mutually exclusive.

[SheepishOne]

If I have a pie, it could be round and it could also be delicious. The fact that the pie is round does not mean that it's impossible for it be delicious. The same is true of patch changes. A change could both be a bug fix and a nerf. The fact that the change is a bug fix does not mean that it's impossible for it to be a nerf.

 

"Bug fix" and "nerf" are not mutually exclusive.

 

You like pie analogies, that's great. You walk into a cafe every day and buy a pie from a self serve. Every time you do you take two. Management figures this out and, instead of reprimanding or arresting you, simply has the servers deliver the pies instead of letting you take more than you paid for. Now you only get one pie. You call the manager and say that you paid for one pie and are therefore entitled to two. The rest of the world stares in wonder as you try to justify your position.

 

If you can't see how the above applies to abusing Resurgence to cast it twice within one GCD then we don't know how to help you. The bug fix is necessary, and it has been a known exploit--not a game mechanic. Therefore it is not a nerf and IS a bug fix. Nerfs change the relative values of abilities. Resurgence has always been on a 6s Recast, its numbers aren't being retooled. If they do change those numbers for the worse then it can be called a nerf. In this case, however, it is not.

[TheHauntingBard]

The fix was to be expected , though personally I rather have them nerf healing and introduce this mechanic.

Thing is a lot of bosses have dull mechanics and just do burst damage.

Heroic 5 man and nightmare modes just translate in >The boss hits harder<

 

The exploit allowed sorcerers to burst heal, with out it we can't (like some other classes)

Pre casting with the huge amount of server lag and sloppy healing UI is risking it with a tank.

Obviously the exploit gave sorcerers an edge.

 

I don't argue that it should not be fixed, but I would say that all 3 healing classes should get a big overhaul.

 

Also keep in mind sorcerers need to waste globals for force, if a boss is mauling a tank a sorcerer can't use his regen mechanic.

You notice this while doing heroic 5 mans in bad groups.

 

 

For me as a sorcerer healing it will make healing well more dull.

You don't need to track a lot of things , you don't have a lot of abilities.

The fix takes more speed out of healing which isn't a good thing.

 

So in the end yes the fix was needed but it would be better if this mechanic was kept and sorcerer healing would be nerfed in a different.

[TheConjecturer]

I am forced to conjecture that the sorc's current healing output is already offset by their inability to wear heavier grades of armor, limited healing mobility, and their inability to enter a stealth mode.

[Shroudveil]

I am forced to conjecture that the sorc's current healing output is already offset by their inability to wear heavier grades of armor, limited healing mobility, and their inability to enter a stealth mode.

 

No.

They have way more cc and force speed to compensate for their light armor (and it more than covers that)

Stealth for pve is useless and for pvp using your in combat stealth means no healing for 10secs.

Also mercs have lower mobility when they heal and operatives the same. You have an instant shield and an instant heal+hot while they have a hot and an instant that requires a 6sec proc if they cannot stay still for 2secs to cast their main heal.

 

 

As for the poster above you i concur that more variety in healing is always nice, but this coming from the class with the more healing tools available is funny.

 

P.e. The sorcs use regurarly their

Shield

2.5sec cast

Innervate

The heal+hot

The aoe

In pvp when interrupted their 1.5sec heal

 

Operatives use

Kp

Ki

Sp

And very rarely the aoe.

[subrosian]

I am forced to conjecture that the sorc's current healing output is already offset by their inability to wear heavier grades of armor, limited healing mobility, and their inability to enter a stealth mode.

 

Does stealth make the Operative take less AoE damage in a raid, or provide a movement speed increase?

 

What bothers me are the people who want a Sorcerer nerf. I rerolled Sorcerer after the recent "everything is fine" post, hit 28 already... but I didn't reroll because I saw Sorcerers doing better... I rerolled bedause Operative healing was miserable. If Operatives are supposed to be the norm in SWTOR, then healing sucks.

 

I cleared flashpoints and raided just fine, yes, but it felt awful. I had times where I was literally shaking when I saw people take avoidable damamge.. or where I makeshifted an alacrity relic plus adrenal to scan up my enery levels during downtime so I had room for the luxury of a 3rd heal before dumping double surgical probes. It would be fine if I were fully over in SWTOR, running my own raids I nip avoidable damage in the bud, but this is the least PUG friendly healing class ever devised.

[Shroudveil]

Does stealth make the Operative take less AoE damage in a raid, or provide a movement speed increase?

 

What bothers me are the people who want a Sorcerer nerf. I rerolled Sorcerer after the recent "everything is fine" post, hit 28 already... but I didn't reroll because I saw Sorcerers doing better... I rerolled bedause Operative healing was miserable. If Operatives are supposed to be the norm in SWTOR, then healing sucks.

 

I cleared flashpoints and raided just fine, yes, but it felt awful. I had times where I was literally shaking when I saw people take avoidable damamge.. or where I makeshifted an alacrity relic plus adrenal to scan up my enery levels during downtime so I had room for the luxury of a 3rd heal before dumping double surgical probes. It would be fine if I were fully over in SWTOR, running my own raids I nip avoidable damage in the bud, but this is the least PUG friendly healing class ever devised.

 

that's the thing, in most posts in the healing forums operatives and mercs are saying their shortcomings and ask from BW, with very resonable ideas most of the time, to correct those.

 

90% of the treads here are "fix ops like that" or "change this talent so that it does that".. and the rest 10%is nerf sorcs.

 

ofc, a bug is a bug, and it should be fixed, even if fixing it would reduce the effectiveness of sorcs in some circumastances, but above all else: bring the rest of the healers on par with sorcs is what the main body of this subforum asks.

[subrosian]

Right, but these are the people who dealt with Operative DPS balance in PVP by making the class unplayable. Even giving them the notion that a nerf (the easy route) is an option scares me. If I was forced to stay at Operative levels, regardless of class, I would just stop healing.

[CEAF]

The only thing I took away from that PR speil was that there will be healing balance changes in 1.2. What they will actually do is all conjecture until we see the PTR notes.

[Kallti]

The only thing I took away from that PR speil was that there will be healing balance changes in 1.2. What they will actually do is all conjecture until we see the PTR notes.

 

This is what I read also.

[Riggz]

I hate inquistor healers

 

They are so overpowered - I'm a level 49 Operative with 1272 Cunning and I swear to god I saw an inquistor was bragging he could outheal me and I checked his stats and he had 900 willpower. We were on the fleet so we could just straight up see the numbers.

 

Bioware you think that is balanced? That a monkey with green gear can keep up with an opeartive with all orange gear that has blue and purple mods. What the heck man, it's insane.

 

Inquistors get static barrier and force sprint. Which translates to "Ha! I'm invincible and I can outrun you, come and get me!" Then you catch them and interupt their heal and the monkey yells "HAHA! I have five more to chose from!

 

When you attack an operative he throws up shield probe which means, one attack out of one hundred will be absorbed. Then the operative jumps into stealth (Not to mention that this means he cannot heal for ten seconds. Don't recall inquistors having that kind of debuff for sprinting away), and in two seconds he is popped back out and attacked.

 

Bioware you think operatives have burst healing? Please.

 

Saying healing is balanced in this game is like saying Bioware and Blizzard are balanced in how many players they have playing the game.

 

I won't unsub, but I will hate all inquistors I see for a very long time if they aren't given a quick blast in the face by a nerf bat.

 

It's simple - nerf mercs and operatives = or nerf inquistors

 

Or continue to have the population of this game be 55% sorrecors

Edited February 22, 2012 by Riggz

[Riggz]

I would be interested in feedback from the community to back his statement of commando and scoundrel being able to complete all content on all difficulty levels. I know I run 8 man nm modes in my guild and we have 2 sorc healers. I mean come on, nothing can touch double healing circles for bringing up your whole group.

 

And saying they CAN clear content doesnt mean they are viable by any means. It means they are getting carried and others need to put out more work for them to be in the group. Hybrid probe/lethality operative isnt an acceptable dps spec. Just because I can put one in a group and carry him through and he is doing dmg, doesnt mean its a viable dps spec. It means you were strong enough to carry him through.

 

If their aim is to make healers equal in output and ability, then lets see some examples of double operative healers running NM mode. Thats really what Im interested in. All this data that they keep secret from the public is BS. Even we as a community require screenshots or fraps for proof of outlandish claims. Why should they be held to a lesser standard?

 

And the part where he tries to say sorcs are only more desirable because people are exploiting a bug? lol Please....

 

You da man

[vendorune]

I am fairly pleased... More front-loaded healing to our aoe will be especially welcomed by me since it won't take another key binding -- I am like flat out of keys now. So I like that a lot.

 

The Sorc nerf in some ways will have a positive effect on me as some of competition in our guild will ****.

 

People who don't like the "tone" should try working for a living instead of calling customer service 24/7.

[RuQu]

People who don't like the "tone" should try working for a living instead of calling customer service 24/7.

 

I'm not sure I follow you. Was that a typo and you meant to say we should work for customer service 24/7, presumably because we would then understand the mindset that leads to that dismissive attitude towards the customer?

 

Are you suggesting that people who found the tone dismissive/rude are somehow all unemployed? Is there some strange twist of logic whereby any of those things are related?

 

Does anyone, anywhere, call customer service 24/7? When would they have the time to use the services they are calling about?

 

Do people who work for a living somehow become used to being treated rudely? I would think that the unemployed would be more accustomed to rude treatment, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the unemployed live a live of luxury and courteous treatment, and I've been making some bad life decisions by not joining them.

 

Yes, in the end it is probably best to ignore the tone of his response, and appreciate it for both its length and the fact that it suggests coming positive change. Those two things don't change the fact that the response itself was dismissive of a problem that many people are experiencing, which is particularly troubling to them coming from the guy who would oversee the fixing of said problem.

[RJChief]

Taken from QA

http://www.swtor.com/node/313694

 

Sage/Inquisitor healers are currently able to exceed our intended healing performance at times by affecting multiple heals with the same Conveyance/Force Bending buff. Game Update 1.2 will remove the ability to do so. [/b]

 

This doesn't actually mean they are reducing the effectiveness of conveyance/forcebend, it means that any one single conveyance proc will not affect more than 1 heal.

 

For example, as a Sage I can ast Rejuvinate to proc Conveyance, begin a Healing Trance with an increased critical chance (granted by Conveyance) then just before the channel is complete I can cast Deliverance with reduced cast time (granted by Conveyance).

 

He did not intend to mean that Conveyance/Force Bend will now in some way be different or no longer grant bonuses that are currently in play.

[Eileithia]

Here is a chunk of the relevant section:

 

 

 

 

The short version (I promise Im working on having short versions) is that I compared a 15s window, which is the duration of KC/RN, but allows a total of 3 KB/KM casts and part of a second Salv, I compared a single cast, which is obviously unfair as KB/KM comes out very cheap and very weak, but it is also on a 6s cooldown vs 12, and I compared what I think is the fairest, a 30s window where the 15s KC/RN gets used twice, the 10s Salv gets used 3 times, and KB/KM gets used 5 times. Obviously in that last we don't see 30s of AoE needed at once, and Salv has a 12s cooldown, so that assumes that 30s of AoE healing get done at any time during the fight. Also, because 30s is the lowest common multiple of all of their durations/cooldowns, each of them could have been cast a final time at the end, which would just be adding the unbalanced single cast values onto the 30s values. I considered it most fair to assume that the same time window of healing was needed so the HPS could be compared.

 

Apparently I suck at short versions, but yes, I considered the differences in cost, cooldowns, and cast times.

 

I think your math is a little off on the Salvation side.

 

2 second cast

Heals for 10 seconds

12 second recast

 

Timeline:

0 sec - Start cast

2 sec - Spell lands

12 sec - Spell completes

14 sec - Cooldown ends

14 sec - Start cast

16 sec - Spell lands

26 sec - Spell completes

28 sec - Cooldown ends

28 sec - Start cast

30 sec - spell lands.

 

The 10 second salve would only get used twice, and if you're lucky 1 tick of a 3rd time assuming perfect timing in a 30 second window which is highly unlikely as you have to physically place the ground target (it's not cast on a party memeber). Just want to be sure you're aware how the actual spell works. It's not instant cast and there's always a 4 second gap of no AE healing if you're spamming (More like 5 if you include placing).

 

All that said, I think you've done a great job in your research and have a good grasp of the overall problems with all the healing classes. From the tone of the Devs response and the "PR Wording" he used I'm sure there will be some significant improvements coming to both Merc/Ops with regard to multi-target healing because quite frankly your current abilities are indeed lacking in that dept.

[RuQu]

I think your math is a little off on the Salvation side.

 

2 second cast

Heals for 10 seconds

12 second recast

 

Timeline:

0 sec - Start cast

2 sec - Spell lands

12 sec - Spell completes

14 sec - Cooldown ends

14 sec - Start cast

16 sec - Spell lands

26 sec - Spell completes

28 sec - Cooldown ends

28 sec - Start cast

30 sec - spell lands.

 

The 10 second salve would only get used twice, and if you're lucky 1 tick of a 3rd time assuming perfect timing in a 30 second window which is highly unlikely as you have to physically place the ground target (it's not cast on a party memeber). Just want to be sure you're aware how the actual spell works. It's not instant cast and there's always a 4 second gap of no AE healing if you're spamming (More like 5 if you include placing).

 

All that said, I think you've done a great job in your research and have a good grasp of the overall problems with all the healing classes. From the tone of the Devs response and the "PR Wording" he used I'm sure there will be some significant improvements coming to both Merc/Ops with regard to multi-target healing because quite frankly your current abilities are indeed lacking in that dept.

 

From the original post, I phrased it like this:

Since those are very different time windows (1 cast,instantly applied, 15s HoT, 10s HoT) we can look at a fight window where, over some period, 30s of total AoE healing are needed. That is exactly 5 KB, 2 KC, or 3 Salv.

 

I don't think there are often 30 seconds of sustained AoE healing needed, so the comparison is over 30s of AoE that need healing at any point during a fight. It could be two 15s windows for the Scoundrel, light AoE all the time for the Commando, or 3 periods people can group up for the Sage.

 

Obviously, if the AoE damage only lasts 5s, the long Scoundrel AoE might be mostly overhealing, if there is a lot of movement the Sage AoE will be only partially occupied, and regardless of situation the lack of smart healing will probably waste part of the Kolto Bomb.

 

The comparison was meant to be 30s (because its the shortest common time interval) of optimally-used AoE. It represents the maximums people can do, which is a fair comparison in my opinion considering that they all have weaknesses that will likely decrease their utility (see previous paragraph).

 

So yes, you are right, if it was 30seconds of sustained AoE, a Sage couldn't land 3 Salvs, but if you have 3 10s phases where people can group up, you will get 30s of AoE healing out of 3 casts, and that will far exceed the output of any of the others in their optimal 30s setups.

 

I realize the language is a little unclear there, but as you can see, it took me 4 paragraphs to try and state it clearer and the original post was already long.

Edited February 22, 2012 by RuQu

[LancelotOC]

First they have to decide to make a change. Then they have to code the decision. Then they have to test the new code internally. Then finally it gets to the PTS and gets tested again. The end product after so many people have worked on it does not match the the original intenton.

 

What can the PR guy do but give ambigous information because if he's ever specific everyone will hold him to it. Damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

[RuQu]

First they have to decide to make a change. Then they have to code the decision. Then they have to test the new code internally. Then finally it gets to the PTS and gets tested again. The end product after so many people have worked on it does not match the the original intenton.

 

What can the PR guy do but give ambigous information because if he's ever specific everyone will hold him to it. Damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

 

He's not the PR Guy. That's the whole idea of the Dev Q&A, they are the Devs.

 

Georg Zoeller is the "Lead Combat Designer." He leads the team that decides to make the change, codes the change, and tests the change. If anyone should know the design philosophy, intentions, and plans, he should.

[Kallti]

He's not the PR Guy. That's the whole idea of the Dev Q&A, they are the Devs.

 

Georg Zoeller is the "Lead Combat Designer." He leads the team that decides to make the change, codes the change, and tests the change. If anyone should know the design philosophy, intentions, and plans, he should.

 

You also don't get to be in that position without knowing the PR philosophy.

 

Any "Dev Q&A" will always leave you disappointed if you go into it expecting them to admit large gameplay problems or commit to anything specific.

 

The positive here is he basically said fixes are coming. Which is good.

 

Some people in this thread need to calm down and realise that BW have far more data than we do about the state of the game and healing in particular, they know the problems and will try to fix them. Once the fix is put in place and you disagree with it, then feel free to complain =)

Edited February 23, 2012 by Kallti