AJediKnight Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) It's bad. I mean, it really just is. Some background: I play a Jugg as my main, and it's astounding how limited we are. Our two highest damaging single-strike abilities -- Savage Kick and Pommel Strike -- can't even be used in PvP. We have a decent snare, but unless you go Immortal, we have absolutely no CC. Every so often I can force push to trigger another force charge, but I have to be nearly in melee range to use the force push in the first place (so it is in no way, shape or form the equivalent of an intercept). We're a situationally strong class in Huttball, but when it comes to more standardized PvP on Alderaan we have extremely, profound limited burst, and we stand a really strong chance of being kited to death, or chain CC'd without even getting a hit off. It is amazing to me how ranged classes dominate this game. Sages/Sorcs and both Troopers/BHs have a wide array of stuns and snares, but what's even more damaging is their ability to 'run and gun.' Whereas snipers and gunslingers are largely (though not always) tied to their cover, the ability of the caster classes to chain a series of their strongest attacks while staying at range and on the move is almost unbelievable. Pair this with the heavy armor of troopers/BHs, and it's easy to understand why, on my server at least, these guys routinely enjoy streaks in WZs where they reach 'immortal' and rack up 40-50 kills without breaking a sweat. If we look at WoW as being the prime example of how differently ranged is handled in other games, the penalty for being a ranged class is always, always, always A) no heavy armor, and B) a lot of abilities with a cast time. This is why when ice lance-based mages were introduced into WoW in wrath, the community went nuts over frost mages, because the idea of an insta-cast, range-spamming class was practically unheard of in the game. The FOTM in WoW is just as likely to be a feral druid, warrior or rogue as it is to be a priest or a warlock, yet I simply do not see the possibility of such a situation developing here in TOR. In fact, the only melee class that seems to do anything significant in PvP here is the operative/scoundrel, and that's simply because they are built around a series of stuns/CCs that essentially mirror the old stunlocking rogues from vanilla WoW. What's even more astounding is the way that you can be damaged through CCs. In the aforementioned Blizzard product, if, say, a mage nailed you with poly, he couldn't immediately begin pounding on you in melee range and expect to live long. In TOR, the vast majority of CCs can also be cast through -- so I can get hit with a debilitating 5 second stun, and then take damage throughout the entirety. Write this off as QQ all you want, but at the end of the day, I just think the entire thing feels clunky, and biased towards about half the game's classes over others. I see sentinels/guards/marauders getting kited to death in largely the same way I do, and while snipers/slingers can throw down a lot of DPS, the moment they're stunned out of cover they're like tigers without teeth. Frankly, I don't think any class should have a combination of superb damage while on the move and heavy armor and stuns, and yet TOR not only features all these in concert in the BH/Trooper, but these two classes rountinely dominate because of their faceroll mechanics. So, yeah, color me dissatisfied. Edited February 17, 2012 by AJediKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseaton Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Reroll a ranged class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teabaker Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Someone should skill Rage. But i agree, Ranged have too much CC in this Game.. Hell, the whole game is a CC fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwkingms Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 1v1 scenarios melee > ranged sorry u died getting shot at by 5 ranged classes but thats working as intended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greennunu Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi, I'm a Power Tech BH, if I focused I die. If a equally geared and skilled Marauder or Jugger is fighting me, I pop my CDs and hope someone find me soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) My main is a jugg, I only do dailies with it now, and then I rolled an operative... and then it got nerfs, ooooh man. Now I'm hybrid speced which is bound to get adjusted by BW sooner or later. Edited February 17, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwkingms Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Someone should skill Rage. But i agree, Ranged have too much CC in this Game.. Hell, the whole game is a CC fest. LOL jugg cc over casters i amazing force leap interrupt, force crush snare, smash, obliterate, force choke, smash, force push, force leap interrupt my fresh 50 jugg with 200 expertise fking dominates sorcs 1v1 sorry my friends but u need to l2p ur class oh vengeance pvp sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainInsano Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Your options as a Jugg (both are very viable): 1.) Make a friend out a healer and guard him. Mercs in particular will never die with you guarding and taunting (this is true for all capable tanks, however). Since the PvP is about objectives, you will prosper and earn easy medals. 2.) Spec rage and smash bomb mutliple people for 5k. This is a one trick pony spec that requires some set up, but when you pull it off the rewards are great. Highest burst capability in PvP atm. Edited February 17, 2012 by CaptainInsano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I am an Immortal Spec Juggernaut wearing DPS PvP gear. I absolutely dominate ranged classes... and melee classes. Really, there's no class that will beat me, only players that will beat me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwkingms Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 confirmed i just did a huttball wearing lvl 40 blues still with only 198 expertise and i absolutely dominated ranged class 1v1 as rage spec u must be bad idk man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxfiendish Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 LOL jugg cc over casters i amazing force leap interrupt, force crush snare, smash, obliterate, force choke, smash, force push, force leap interrupt my fresh 50 jugg with 200 expertise fking dominates sorcs 1v1 sorry my friends but u need to l2p ur class oh vengeance pvp sucks this man speaks the truth, unless something SERIOUSLY changed over the past month I unsubbed and just came back. Or you're playing wrong. Juggernauts played correctly literally **** on almost every other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I am an Immortal Spec Juggernaut wearing DPS PvP gear. I absolutely dominate ranged classes... and melee classes. Really, there's no class that will beat me, only players that will beat me. ^ If I am running my Jugg as Immortal spec and find myself in a situation that I won't be doing any killing in, I just call for help. I then proceed to stand there and laugh at the attackers as I face tank them for 5 minutes until my backup arrives. On that note, in Huttball I with the assistance of 1 healer walked the ball from one side to the other for a score. I know how to use resolve, and my bubbles, plus they ignored the healer. They just couldn't DPS me fast enough to get through everything. My only wish is that I knew how to play my Juggernaut better, I am not the best at PvP, just ok. I do well with my Ops, I like how he plays, but I seem to step down a few levels of skill with my Jugg. I wish this because I have seen some really amazing Jugg players and they just **** on everyone. Edited February 17, 2012 by PostalTwinkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Marching a ball across the goal-line with 20 slows on you is probably the most satisfying thing you can do as a Juggernaut in this game. I remember, at one point, being so slowed I was probably 10% away from being straight up rooted, and they kept beating on me and beating on me and beating on me, but with Invincible and Saber Ward up, they couldn't do anything to stop me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperomegaOP Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 go rage... get dem big crits on force screem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseaton Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have been saying all along, if they can get rid of ALL stuns, the game would be much more fun. I hate stuns so much. That is not fighting. Expecially when you are stun locked the whole time and just die. Not much fun at all and no chance on fighting back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have been saying all along, if they can get rid of ALL stuns, the game would be much more fun. I hate stuns so much. That is not fighting. Expecially when you are stun locked the whole time and just die. Not much fun at all and no chance on fighting back. Proper use of resolve and timing fixes that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netsu Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 confirmed i just did a huttball wearing lvl 40 blues still with only 198 expertise and i absolutely dominated ranged class 1v1 as rage spec u must be bad idk man Maybe you played some really bad ranged? I have yet to lose a 1v1 with juggs/marauders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaFurz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) 1v1 scenarios melee > ranged sorry u died getting shot at by 5 ranged classes but thats working as intended Yeah working as intended by Bioware. Its no wonder that she get targeted by that many since 90% of the classes ingame have abilities for the 30m range without even long casting times. 1v1 battlegrounds are alot more about group pvp than 1v1. In most cases the only fair 1v1 are duels. Edited February 17, 2012 by BobaFurz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthWomprat Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Not sure what you mean. I'm a vengeance jugg and I do really well. I'm not tops on damage or kills (mostly) but I serve an important purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthWomprat Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi, I'm a Power Tech BH, if I focused I die. If a equally geared and skilled Marauder or Jugger is fighting me, I pop my CDs and hope someone find me soon. Yeah, if you aren't full battlemaster and really know what you're doing, you're toast to a good jugg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah, if you aren't full battlemaster and really know what you're doing, you're toast to a good jugg. One of the times I speced DPS on my Jugg I dueled another, Rage, speced Jugg. He had his buttons down, he was kicking my *** all over the place and we were both in Champion gear. Maybe I am just getting too old to press those buttons in the right order! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaucs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) It's bad. I mean, it really just is. Some background: I play a Jugg as my main, and it's astounding how limited we are. Our two highest damaging single-strike abilities -- Savage Kick and Pommel Strike -- can't even be used in PvP. We have a decent snare, but unless you go Immortal, we have absolutely no CC. Every so often I can force push to trigger another force charge, but I have to be nearly in melee range to use the force push in the first place (so it is in no way, shape or form the equivalent of an intercept). We're a situationally strong class in Huttball, but when it comes to more standardized PvP on Alderaan we have extremely, profound limited burst, and we stand a really strong chance of being kited to death, or chain CC'd without even getting a hit off. Jugg actually has a decent amount of CC. AOE Mez, root, aoe slow, force push, and force choke. In rage spec you can get another slow and in immortal spec you can get 1 extra stun and no channel on force choke. That is more than plenty of other classes get. As far as the burst goes, we actually have decent burst in both specs but it depends on how good your gear is. Need expertise, surge and power to do good burst at lvl 50. It is amazing to me how ranged classes dominate this game. Sages/Sorcs and both Troopers/BHs have a wide array of stuns and snares, but what's even more damaging is their ability to 'run and gun.' Whereas snipers and gunslingers are largely (though not always) tied to their cover, the ability of the caster classes to chain a series of their strongest attacks while staying at range and on the move is almost unbelievable. Pair this with the heavy armor of troopers/BHs, and it's easy to understand why, on my server at least, these guys routinely enjoy streaks in WZs where they reach 'immortal' and rack up 40-50 kills without breaking a sweat. Ranged classes can "run and gun" in this, depending on spec, but the heavy armor is not actually a big factor as many attacks, internal & elemental, ignore armor entirely. Additionally, while sorc/sage and vanguard/powertech have a fair amount of cc abilities, merc/trooper does not. If we look at WoW as being the prime example of how differently ranged is handled in other games, the penalty for being a ranged class is always, always, always A) no heavy armor, and B) a lot of abilities with a cast time. This is why when ice lance-based mages were introduced into WoW in wrath, the community went nuts over frost mages, because the idea of an insta-cast, range-spamming class was practically unheard of in the game. The FOTM in WoW is just as likely to be a feral druid, warrior or rogue as it is to be a priest or a warlock, yet I simply do not see the possibility of such a situation developing here in TOR. In fact, the only melee class that seems to do anything significant in PvP here is the operative/scoundrel, and that's simply because they are built around a series of stuns/CCs that essentially mirror the old stunlocking rogues from vanilla WoW. This is very inaccurate. Hunters were ranged with armor and few casted abilities. Ice lance was introduced in TBC and was even more OP during TBC than wrath. Every melee class has positives and negatives in SWTOR. In fact, OPs have gotten the most nerfs of any melee in this game and can still do plenty of damage. Powertechs and assassins have plenty of good qualities and strong abilities, pulls for example. What's even more astounding is the way that you can be damaged through CCs. In the aforementioned Blizzard product, if, say, a mage nailed you with poly, he couldn't immediately begin pounding on you in melee range and expect to live long. In TOR, the vast majority of CCs can also be cast through -- so I can get hit with a debilitating 5 second stun, and then take damage throughout the entirety. [/Quote] Stuns exist in many MMOs and SWTOR is no exception. There are plenty of CCs in WoW that don't break on damage; in fact, with the exception of priests I think, every class in WoW can spec to get a CC which does not break on damage. WoW even has silences which are not in SWTOR. If your argument is that too many classes have stuns or there are too many stun abilities in SWTOR then that is you opinion and frankly, it's one that I can agree with but don't pretend that WoW doesn't have plenty of stuns and hard CC. Write this off as QQ all you want, but at the end of the day, I just think the entire thing feels clunky, and biased towards about half the game's classes over others. I see sentinels/guards/marauders getting kited to death in largely the same way I do, and while snipers/slingers can throw down a lot of DPS, the moment they're stunned out of cover they're like tigers without teeth. Frankly, I don't think any class should have a combination of superb damage while on the move and heavy armor and stuns, and yet TOR not only features all these in concert in the BH/Trooper, but these two classes rountinely dominate because of their faceroll mechanics. So, yeah, color me dissatisfied. Juggs and Marauders both have rage spec which has an additional gap closer; spec rage if you feel you get kited a lot. You have a strong aoe slow, use that when you charge someone. Position yourself so that you can't get knocked away from your target. Use LoS to your advantage; if you are just gonna die by running at them slowly try to find someplace to LoS them and make them come to you. Jugg has plenty of gap closing abilities; try anticipating your opponent's actions and using or not using your abilities based on that knowledge. Is that sorc you want to attack gonna knock you back? If he will then walk up to him and charge back to him after his knockback or position yourself so you hit a wall and don't move far. There are plenty of ways to counter the abilities of other classes as a Jugg. Will you beat everyone every time? No. Do you have the tools to beat the other classes? For the most part yes. Edited February 17, 2012 by Glaucs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripballs Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Proper use of resolve and timing fixes that. Could you explain this in details please? I see your problem OP, and it is rather easy to fix it - all you have to do is just l2p. Edited February 17, 2012 by tripballs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Could you explain this in details please? I see your problem OP, and it is rather easy to fix it - all you have to do is just l2p. I could explain it in detail, but Rom-Fu does it better with his sticky at the top.... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=61363 Most the time I have found people don't even know where their resolve bar is. The next biggest issue is people use their CC break ability BEFORE their resolve is charged, completely wasting it. While the resolve system isn't perfect, knowing when to break from CC and when to use CC is a huge deal a lot of people overlook. EDIT: Reading the guide isn't going to make you instantly better, but it will help you become aware of how it works and that allows you to become better through practice. I noticed a huge difference in my PvP after I learned how to use it correctly. I went from total trash player to mildly smelly trash player! Edited February 18, 2012 by PostalTwinkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavlad Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 At the op i'v seen juggs **** people all over the place you must be really bad at that class juggs are very hard to fight against your just bad sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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