My worry with TOR

[DigitalDreamz]

Again, the problem isnt with the game, it is the mindset of today's player. rush rush rush is the way to win win win. nonsense. thats the way to lose lose lose.

 

unfortunately, im not sure how to revert these players' way of thinking.

 

This is incorrect. Actually this is a rather familiar defense tactic for those who are apologists of this game or any game which is pretty bad.

 

'Good' developers have pushed the envelope of gaming for many years now. We've seen what a competent staff can do with games. BF3, Skyrim, Assassins Creed, Uncharted etc (Hate all you want) they push hardware to it's limits to provide a new age gaming experience. The 'new age' experience eventually becomes the standard.

 

Games such as SWTOR are basically regressing instead of progressing. We only expect what everyone else can provide. If SWTOR cannot provide what the standard is then maybe they shouldn't make MMOs. If they do want to make MMOs then they shouldn't complain about the customer base who pays their damn bills by insulting them. Lastly when they have sub 300k and RIFT is still over a million, WoW still has 10 million, GW2 has 2 million and Tera has a million they'll know why.

 

It's because they are not at the level of the rest.

 

Excuse this all you want but there is no room for hurt feelings in this industry . . . just ask Mythic games.

Edited February 17, 2012 by DigitalDreamz

[Darkhosis]

Don't worry.... BE Happy! Do do doot doo do do de dooooo.

 

[Vecke]

I'm not the one who arbitrarily put "recent". If you want to compare swtor to train wrecks like STO and other garbage that's your choice.

 

Maybe it's not a coincidence WoW is the top dog and EQ1 is still online.

 

But both of those games abandoned that approach. WoW is number 1 and EQ is still around, but both games can now easily be maxed out in under 2 months.

 

Honestly, I can't think of a single MMO that's still around - no matter how successful - that doesn't have people making it to max level in under 2 months.

 

Not one.

[Gungan]

Obviously you were not around for the release of Vanilla WoW they had rant threads and other **** going on exactly like Swtor....Nerdy *** kids who did nothing but skip school and play wow for 15+ hours a day to max out and start raiding..It's exactly what happened to this game.Over many releases such as expansions content drops and all that good stuff the game will get better..BW cannot make everysingle *********** customer happy there are too many of them.They do their best.Ofc if you can make a better game that makes an international customer base happy lmk and i will def go play it. until then try not to pretend you have the slightest clue *** is going on,

 

There's a difference between playing 15+ hours a day and rushing through (WoW exageration), and playing 3 hours a day tops, doing all the content on the way, and still getting to 50 before the free month is up (what I actually did).

[SushaBrancaleone]

Except that is only viable once: when you reroll on the other faction. Rerolling on the same faction results in 5 unique class quests per planet, and 95% content ou've already done.

 

im not saying it is an intelligent option nor that i like it, but its a fact. if u want new content to swtor u are more likely to get it rerolling than doing endame, .. cos there is just less content in end game.

[AlphaBraddox]

Honestly, I haven't seen an MMO released in the last 4 or 5 years that didn't have people complaining within 2 months that they've done everything.

 

I'm not saying they're not out there, but I've honestly not seen it in any MMO I've played.

 

MMO devs always underestimate the amount of free time allot of players out there have. Kinda sad if you think about it....

 

More fluff for RP purposes & such would be nice. Allowing our toons to sit down in cantinas is a start...lol.

Edited February 17, 2012 by AlphaBraddox

[Bannorrr]

My guild has 11 members, we're a tight knit group. My worry, however, is that we have stopped logging on. All of us.

 

I love the way you started this... So, I'll take the medical approach to try and do some problemsolving for you.

 

First you could try telling your guild to stop logging off, and see if that helps.

If that does not help, try and break up the momentum. Log in for a change. Then see how tightly knit you really are!

Your last option is to stop taking those dopamins, and talk to your friends. Ask them if they have stopped logging in or not. See if your worry is grounded!

 

I hope I have been of help. Please pay 50$ at the desk before leaving. Now, get out!

[SushaBrancaleone]

There's a difference between playing 15+ hours a day and rushing through (WoW exageration), and playing 3 hours a day tops, doing all the content on the way, and still getting to 50 before the free month is up (what I actually did).

 

the way people have played mmo's in the last 10 years.. is not how you suggest. mmorpgs are great content for people who can only play 3 hrs a day once or twice a week, but the most of mmorpgs players are university students or whatver, people with time on their hands. If yuo want to deliver to a mmorpg comunity your gonna have to deal with these people and their way of playing. they/we are the majority for now...

[DigitalDreamz]

I love the way you started this... So, I'll take the medical approach to try and do some problemsolving for you.

 

First you could try telling your guild to stop logging off, and see if that helps.

If that does not help, try and break up the momentum. Log in for a change. Then see how tightly knit you really are!

Your last option is to stop taking those dopamins, and talk to your friends. Ask them if they have stopped logging in or not. See if your worry is grounded!

 

I hope I have been of help. Please pay 50$ at the desk before leaving. Now, get out!

 

Such a great community you guys have here.

[Gungan]

the way people have played mmo's in the last 10 years.. is not how you suggest. mmorpgs are great content for people who can only play 3 hrs a day once or twice a week, but the most of mmorpgs players are university students or whatver, people with time on their hands. If yuo want to deliver to a mmorpg comunity your gonna have to deal with these people and their way of playing. they/we are the majority for now...

 

Seems to me like those people are paying a subscription to not play a game 6 days a week. Seems like a stupid thing to do in this economy.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Gungan

[techslave]

This is incorrect. Actually this is a rather familiar defense tactic for those who are apologists of this game or any game which is pretty bad.

 

'Good' developers have pushed the envelope of gaming for many years now. We've seen what a competent staff can do with games. BF3, Skyrim, Assassins Creed, Uncharted etc (Hate all you want) they push hardware to it's limits to provide a new age gaming experience. The 'new age' experience eventually becomes the standard.

 

Games such as SWTOR are basically regressing instead of progressing. We only expect what everyone else can provide. If SWTOR cannot provide what the standard is then maybe they shouldn't make MMOs. If they do want to make MMOs then they shouldn't complain about the customer base who pays their damn bills by insulting them. Lastly when they have sub 300k and RIFT is still over a million, WoW still has 10 million, GW2 has 2 million and Tera has a million they'll know why.

 

It's because they are not at the level of the rest.

 

Excuse this all you want but there is no room for hurt feelings in this industry . . . just ask Mythic games.

 

 

lol i was called disingenous AND a fanboy. wow. good on ya. i wont stoop to passive agressively calling you names though.

 

i am simply someone who appreciates others' work. a lot of people put a lot of time into this game. i dont merely dismiss it as an obstacle.

 

MMO games havent changed. players have. their approach to playing them has devolved into selfish egocentric fashion shows about gear and achievements.

 

if you were around for the early games, you wouldnt come at MMOs like the way some others are now. and youd be reasonably satisfied with what is here as it is.

[Traumahawk]

lmao.

 

Actually, Bioware stated many times that they designed the game to provide ~200 hours of game play from 1-50. The average player plays 10-15 hours per week in their average MMO. I'm sure you can do the math from there and figure out what that means in terms of calendar weeks from 1-50.

 

 

13 Weeks according to your numbers. So you've proven the point that those who tell us to slow down are being ludicrous. You know very well that MMO staying power (which = revenue = content updates = polished game) is not determined by leveling time, but what keeps players hooked at max level. Then, after a year or two, when that collateral runs out, you introduce an expansion pack. If you are conceding that the game isn't really an MMO, then I would agree with you and might agree that 200 hours isn't bad for a single-player game. If not, then this game model was a poor decision.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Traumahawk

[DigitalDreamz]

lol i was called disingenous AND a fanboy. wow. good on ya. i wont stoop to passive agressively calling you names though.

 

i am simply someone who appreciates others' work. a lot of people put a lot of time into this game. i dont merely dismiss it as an obstacle.

 

MMO games havent changed. players have. their approach to playing them has devolved into selfish egocentric fashion shows about gear and achievements.

 

if you were around for the early games, you wouldnt come at MMOs like the way some others are now. and youd be reasonably satisfied with what is here as it is.

 

This is 2012 not 1992. Times have changed my friend, I suggest as I mentioned earlier you and Bioware keep up. Developers can do so much more, frankly so much more than this staff.

 

If Bioware can't keep up with present day developers then they should either switch professions or accept their mediocrity.

Edited February 17, 2012 by DigitalDreamz

[Traumahawk]

Again, the problem isnt with the game, it is the mindset of today's player. rush rush rush is the way to win win win. nonsense. thats the way to lose lose lose.

 

unfortunately, im not sure how to revert these players' way of thinking.

 

Yes or no: Companies manufacture products that appeal to their customers' current desires. Please name a company in any industry that has survived by thumbing their nose at "today's" consumer.

[Andryah]

You know very well that MMO staying power (which = revenue = content updates = polished game) is not determined by leveling time, but what keeps players hooked at max level. Then, after a year or two, when that collateral runs out, you introduce an expansion pack.

 

The reality is this is a player problem, not a game problem now days.

 

No MMO keeps the hardcore happy and subscribed anymore. WoW included (where people come back for 3-4 months on an expansion then leave again, and again). And WoW has proven that you can make money and continue game development even with a highly transient population base.

 

It will be the same with GW2 and D3, and Titan and any other MMO that comes along. The sooner the hardcore figure this out and quit the genre all together, the better off everyone will be.

[Gungan]

The reality is this is a player problem, not a game problem now days.

 

No MMO keeps the hardcore happy and subscribed anymore. WoW included (where people come back for 3-4 months on an expansion then leave again, and again). And WoW has proven that you can make money and continue game development even with a highly transient population base.

 

It will be the same with GW2 and D3, and Titan and any other MMO that comes along. The sooner the hardcore figure this out and quit the genre all together, the better off everyone will be.

 

WoW really had no trouble keeping me satisfied all the way to Firelands in Cata. After my raid group lost people for real life reasons I just had no desire to find a new one, and decided 7 years with one game was enough. I still love WoW. It did so many things right, and it is an IP I adore.

 

I adore Star Wars too, probably even more than WoW (I have a 3x5bookshelf full of nothing but extended universe Star Wars novels), but I cannot overlook the fact that SWTOR is not as good an MMO as WoW ever was, even 7 years ago.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Gungan

[Vecke]

The problem (from my perspective) with this thread is people seem to have a problem accepting the idea that it's possible to think this game is great fun AND could be improved upon in many ways.

 

All the over-stating actually hurts the game's potential for improvement.

 

For me, this game is extremely fun, and - again, just for me - the features this game added are much more important to my enjoyment than the features it omitted.

 

To be fair, though, I typically only play with people I already know (either from previous gaming or IRL). I also like to progress very slowly in MMOs (my main is level 29). I also love playing alts.

 

I've played most of the MMOs that have hit the market and I've never needed a cross-server LFG. I don't often PVP. I don't often raid. Most of the features that make people think this game is going backwards just aren't features that have ever impacted my game all that much.

 

So, for me personally, this game is exactly what I was hoping it would be, in pretty much every way. I like the style. I like the setting. I like the voice-overs. I like the story. I like the group dynamics (conversations, holocall, etc).

 

Pretty much every aspect of MMOs that I care about are in this game, and the aspects that aren't in this game are aspects I've never much cared about.

 

And I do stick with games. I've played EQ2 for 7 years straight, paying a sub the entire time.

 

However, I am not claiming that these missing features aren't important to other players. If you play the aspects I don't play, I can totally see how this game is a massive disappointment. I think you should speak out about the improvements you want. Absolutely, you should.

 

The problem on these forums is that everybody wants to think that their own personal opinion represents some great majority and the game will "die" if their personal desires aren't met.

 

The complaints on this game are completely legitimate, and if we'd just stop attacking each other for having different views and stop making baseless overly dramatic claims about the fate of the game... the actual feedback would get through much, much more clearly and these issues would stand a much better chance at getting fixed, making the game more enjoyable for everyone.

 

Just my opinion.

 

And yes, this post is way too long.

[Traumahawk]

The reality is this is a player problem, not a game problem now days.

 

No MMO keeps the hardcore happy and subscribed anymore. WoW included (where people come back for 3-4 months on an expansion then leave again, and again). And WoW has proven that you can make money and continue game development even with a highly transient population base.

 

It will be the same with GW2 and D3, and Titan and any other MMO that comes along. The sooner the hardcore figure this out and quit the genre all together, the better off everyone will be.

 

Without players, there are no games. You are suggesting that a for-profit company should imperil stock value simply because they want to force players to behave in a different way. You want to change the playerbase? First, it takes patience--tastes and fads fade, but never overnight (it has to come from within). Second, you find ways of distributing niche or progressive content via open source or crowd sourcing.

 

Believe it or not, I happen to agree with your assessment of the current player base. But let's be practical/pragmatic about this. It's going to require a major shift in the game model for the changes you are looking for to come to pass. SWTOR is obviously not this type of game.

[Herblaw]

WoW really had no trouble keeping me satisfied all the way to Firelands in Cata. After my raid group lost people for real life reasons I just had no desire to find a new one, and decided 7 years with one game was enough. I still love WoW. It did so many things right, and it is an IP I adore.

 

I adore Star Wars too, probably even more than WoW (I have a 3x5bookshelf full of nothing but extended universe Star Wars novels), but I cannot overlook the fact that SWTOR is not as good an MMO as WoW ever was, even 7 years ago.

 

go back to blumpkins for blizzard man... Seriously I think that Vanilla WoW was trash compared to swtor.. Ofc this game has more launch errors but thats because all the people ready for this game kept rushing them.when its polished and refined people will say who plays wow anymore...All i see if your OPiNION about WoW you cannot keep a arguement going with that.The quests in Swtor are better..there is a legit storyline which is better.there are better character customizations which is better.there are better graphix aside from the Dust particle appearance ofc.Now you can keep making posts about how much you love wow and how much this game isn't as good as wow or you can log out and go back to WoW.

[StrykerOne]

I hit 50 four weeks after release. I certainly didn't rush through the game, and I cannot fathom how anybody could level so slowly that they are still below 40 after I've been 50 for over 3 weeks.

 

Well, some casual players only play for around 10 hours a week or less. There are also people like me who play alts... I probably would have hit 50 on my main by now but thanks to a bugged class quest and zero help from customer support he's been shelved for weeks. I've been trying different classes and just haven't settled on a new main yet, so odds are I'll be hitting 50 with multiple characters in a short span here in a few weeks instead of on one character now. (I plan to make at least one of each advanced class, and probably two or more of the ones I like most.)

 

I can definitely see how someone who plays several hours most days and focuses on one character could be pretty bored now though... weekly raid lockouts are about the stupidest concept ever added to MMOs. It would be much better to just have lockouts on boss loot and let people run the operations as often as they like to help other people and collect random (non-boss) loot or crafting supplies (I'm assuming there are at least some non-boss crafting drops on ops... salvage or bioanalysis from mobs if nothing else).

 

Ultimately I assume the game will live or die based on PvP though. Sooner or later even casuals will get fully geared and lose interest in running the same few daily quests, ops and FPs over and over again. Once that happens, warzones or open world PvP are going to be about the only thing to do between content additions. City of Heroes kept my attention by being so alt-friendly, but I really can't see myself actively playing 40+ characters here like I did there so I'm hoping for some fun after 50. I'm still hoping for Dark Age of Camelot style open world PvP objectives, like outposts that can be captured and defended by guilds. I really want to see some serious mass (100+ players per side) battles here, complete with emplaced weapons and vehicles. Hey, I can dream can't I?

[techslave]

The problem (from my perspective) with this thread is people seem to have a problem accepting the idea that it's possible to think this game is great fun AND could be improved upon in many ways.

 

All the over-stating actually hurts the game's potential for improvement.

 

For me, this game is extremely fun, and - again, just for me - the features this game added are much more important to my enjoyment than the features it omitted.

 

To be fair, though, I typically only play with people I already know (either from previous gaming or IRL). I also like to progress very slowly in MMOs (my main is level 29). I also love playing alts.

 

I've played most of the MMOs that have hit the market and I've never needed a cross-server LFG. I don't often PVP. I don't often raid. Most of the features that make people think this game is going backwards just aren't features that have ever impacted my game all that much.

 

So, for me personally, this game is exactly what I was hoping it would be, in pretty much every way. I like the style. I like the setting. I like the voice-overs. I like the story. I like the group dynamics (conversations, holocall, etc).

 

Pretty much every aspect of MMOs that I care about are in this game, and the aspects that aren't in this game are aspects I've never much cared about.

 

And I do stick with games. I've played EQ2 for 7 years straight, paying a sub the entire time.

 

However, I am not claiming that these missing features aren't important to other players. If you play the aspects I don't play, I can totally see how this game is a massive disappointment. I think you should speak out about the improvements you want. Absolutely, you should.

 

The problem on these forums is that everybody wants to think that their own personal opinion represents some great majority and the game will "die" if their personal desires aren't met.

 

The complaints on this game are completely legitimate, and if we'd just stop attacking each other for having different views and stop making baseless overly dramatic claims about the fate of the game... the actual feedback would get through much, much more clearly and these issues would stand a much better chance at getting fixed, making the game more enjoyable for everyone.

 

Just my opinion.

 

And yes, this post is way too long.

 

 

actually, i read your wall of text there and it kept my interest because i agree. my main just dinged 49 this morning. i have like 4 other alts i play. each one has a craft. so a lot of my gaming time is spread out among these toons, not channeled into one alone. i stop to smell roses.

 

 

SOME of the complaints are legitimate, others are less so, as they dont understand the process for setting up a game like this. being bored is NOT a valid complaint in an MMO with regards to its performance. ability delay and imbalance between factions is.

 

there is perception, and there is quantifiable, concrete problems. a game company can only fix one. the other is a behavior issue.

[Vecke]

actually, i read your wall of text there and it kept my interest because i agree. my main just dinged 49 this morning. i have like 4 other alts i play. each one has a craft. so a lot of my gaming time is spread out among these toons, not channeled into one alone. i stop to smell roses.

 

 

SOME of the complaints are legitimate, others are less so, as they dont understand the process for setting up a game like this. being bored is NOT a valid complaint in an MMO with regards to its performance. ability delay and imbalance between factions is.

 

there is perception, and there is quantifiable, concrete problems. a game company can only fix one. the other is a behavior issue.

 

All good points. I definitely should've specified that some (not all) of the complaints are valid.

[TheCynic]

This may be news to you, but there have been other MMOs released where a significant chunk of the player population doesn not hit max level in less than a month and exhausts available endgame content in less than 2 months.

 

QFT!! and the BIGGEST problem with the whole design concept of the damned game!

[ShaftyMcShaft]

13 Weeks according to your numbers. So you've proven the point that those who tell us to slow down are being ludicrous. You know very well that MMO staying power (which = revenue = content updates = polished game) is not determined by leveling time, but what keeps players hooked at max level. Then, after a year or two, when that collateral runs out, you introduce an expansion pack. If you are conceding that the game isn't really an MMO, then I would agree with you and might agree that 200 hours isn't bad for a single-player game. If not, then this game model was a poor decision.

 

Exactly. And the "slow down" thing doesn't work because...that's not the point of a subscription MMO. The point is to have so much to do, either because it's just HARD or artificially limited by lockouts or grinding or whatever, that it's just about impossible to do everything.

 

In WoW, it takes months for casual guilds to beat new normal raid content or non-world-first-seeking heroic raiding guilds to beat hardmode raid content. In SWTOR it takes 2-3 weeks after launch to pug NMM Ops. The PvP content is a joke, too, with the 3 warzones, broken Ilum, and ridiculous random grab-bag system. Not to mention balance. No content for the achievement hounds, or the pet collectors, or the RPers. It's kinda hard to RP Han and Greedo when the game won't let you sit in a chair.

 

And when somebody has a legitimate complaint, what do the Biodrones do? Blame the players! "Well you went too fast! And it's not a game for raiders! And it's not a PvP game! And it's about the story! Just don't try to make up any of your own stories because you can't craft anything unique or interact with anything in the game!"

 

Okay, fine. So the game is only for leveling alts. Well that'll get old really fast, and then there'll be nobody playing the game. Which means no subs. Which is no money. Which is no new "story" content for you to slowly plod through. You NEED those other players, not just to keep the game afloat, but so you have others to carry you through FPs and Ops, to get your back in PvP, to make stuff for you to buy off the GTN.

 

Look, the game doesn't have to be all things to all people. But it does have to be SOMETHING to EACH person. Good for you if you like leveling. But when a raider complains the raid content is lousy...it's because it is. They can add challenging raid content and you don't have to play it if you don't want to. Same with PvP content, or crafting content, or RP content. You don't HAVE to sit in the chairs if you don't want to. But there are people who might like to.

 

So help a brother out, and when he complains about the lack of content for him...support him! BioWare's already got your money. They're not going to let you play for free because you told somebody on the forums to shut up and like their mediocre game. If you get his back, he'll keep paying his sub, and you'll keep getting content. Otherwise...

 

When they didn't make Op bosses with more than 3 mechanics for the raiders, I didn't QQ because I thought standing in fire was a haste buff.

 

When they didn't make a second Huttball map for the PvPers, I didn't QQ because I keyboard turn.

 

When they didn't add sandbox content for the RPers, I didn't QQ because I'm not asian.

 

And when they didn't have enough subs to add story content for me, there was no one left to QQ for me.

[Rodanth_The_Wise]

Vanilla WoW.

 

EQ1.

 

Was going to say the same thing. Obviously doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. Ragnaros was not downed for months after release, same with onyxia. In fact both world firsts were pretty big events. And then thinking back to EQ, in the velious days in particular...sleepers tomb. The ancients? And then kerafyrm herself? The so called "end game boss" that was all but unkillable ON PURPOSE? I mean, she wasn't really part of the raid content. I don't think SOE wanted people downing the sleeper anyway if I remember right. Think it was more of a lore thing, and they wanted her to awaken when all 4 ancients were killed and wreak havoc. That is why once she was awakened, she never appeared again. Servers had rules as to the awakening of the sleeper. People had to stand on watch, because only guilds worthy enough, and large enough were entitled with the responsibility of awakening the sleeper and attempting the ONCE IN A LIFETIME opportunity of defeating it. For nothing but bragging rights. No loot. Nothing. Just a dead corpse, and to say you did the impossible. Rez rushing anyone?