Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[BlueFromMoon]

Nobody knows anything about Titan yet, including you. It's a unicorn at this point.

 

Well, we know now its not FPS and its no longer called as MMO, its called MMORPG. Elder Scroll Online is before Titan and interesting to see what happens.

[mattgyver]

Well, we know now its not FPS and its no longer called as MMO, its called MMORPG. Elder Scroll Online is before Titan and interesting to see what happens.

 

lol so yeah, there is no information of any consequence concerning Titan. It's starting to become a mystical legend that some of the WoW people are invoking as the coming conqueror of all gamedom. Annoying. There is no information on Titan at this time.

[AuckaLukaum]

Both themeparks and sandboxes have their strengths and weaknesses, as with anything else in life.

But a recurring and growing theme on the Internet these days is one of polarity. You can't be for x without being against y. A movie or a game can only be the best ever or the worst ever, but never anything in between.

 

Now, there is something important to be said for developing a theme and sticking with it. You risk muddying your experience and the goal of your design if you stray too far from your ideology. Star Wars Galaxies is an example of that: a sandbox game that tried to become a themepark, with mixed results.

 

However, I don't see a specific reason that SWTOR couldn't add a completely sandbox planet as an expansion or content patch. A wide open world with wild spawns. Three cities; one is a hub for Imperials, one for Republic, with a contested city in the middle of the map. Spawns increase in difficulty from level 10 to level 50 as you stray farther from the hubs; no quests, just a pure sandbox environment to play in with cave systems to explore, a city to control factionally, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the bulk of the game offers the full themepark experience (as it does now). I think a sandbox type planet (maybe Dantooine) provides an alternate means of both leveling and PvPing without taking away from the focused story-driven environment that players are introduced to first.

[Dyvid]

For everyone who says the game is too linear and nothing to explore here is a tips, click "untrack" on all your quest and remove the icons from your MiniMap and just start walking around. You'll be surprised on what you find. Last night on Kaas I found two standard bosses and a murder site next to the cantina.

[Monave]

Didn't you read rest of post Monave? And EvE is sadly not pure or half sandbox. But we can say game with some sandbox elements.

 

 

EvE is pretty much the most sabdboxy title I have played to date and not sure if I would want something more open ended (at least not the crazy PvP ing and constant griefing).

 

Then again, I have not went further down the road regarding this so I probably really wouldn't know until I actually try one out.

 

Is there something out there that you guys consider 100% sandbox that is good or decent because I would like to check it out for myself to see how it fits.

 

I think I am definitely in the 50-50 crowd because I seem to enjoy elements of both styles.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Monave

[Monave]

For everyone who says the game is too linear and nothing to explore here is a tips, click "untrack" on all your quest and remove the icons from your MiniMap and just start walking around. You'll be surprised on what you find. Last night on Kaas I found two standard bosses and a murder site next to the cantina.

 

Now this MAY actually be something interesting to do...especially in the first go around where you really don't know where anything is.

[Monave]

Basically yes, but a little more complicated.

 

The complete idea will be in one of my infamous (back in the SWG days) game concept posts, complete with links to simple graphics to illustrate concepts and whatnot.

 

The basic run down of the idea is this: The three planets would be frontier, or colonial planets, faction loyal, but not aligned. The first two planets are faction aligned, in that only Imperials can go to one, only Republics can get to the other, so no one has to participate in the fighting if they don't want to.

 

The third planet will be divided north/south east/west between 4 different 'factions' (Republic, Empire, Hutt and Fringer) and the closer your lad is to the middle of the map, the less likely your it will have NPC military to help protect it (your land could be invaded by other players, as well as having the town be able to enter 'siege mode' where your it is being invaded by NPCs, kind of like a Flash Point where you're defending your land with your guild/pug). It's important to note that in Hutt and Fringer space it doesn't matter if you're Imp or Pub, so an Imp player could settle in the Imp, Hutt or Fringer zones.

 

In the very center would be a dynamic contested faction zone where players could build defensive structures like turrets, bunkers etc, but those structures would be able to be destroyed as well (I have a number of ways in mind players would purchase these without getting to overblown and automatically being decided by whoever has the most credits) This would also allow for some decent semi-open world PvP in the central/contested zones where players could attack eachother's structures as well. There could also be a system in which specific sections could be conquered by the opposing faction, but that has some kinks to work out yet in my mind.

 

As for the planets themselves, they would be as big as Hoth, or Voss, but more open and available to be traveled. The planet would be divided into sectors with a signpost or other terrain feature in the center of each sector that a player could click on to enter (and claim a phase of such to settle in) an enclosed, phased section that had that identical section's terrain features in which to build their own little section of space. They could then put up pre fabricated buildings and terrain features (like trees, skeletons, NPS animals) and whatnot by buying them from a popup menu, then placing them around. And of course you could decorate the insides of buildings with more artifacts from another pop up menu. That way each section of land isn't first come first serve.

 

The owner (or guild leader) would set up permissions on the gateway to their land to make it public, private, open to people on their friend list, whatever. They would also set the encounter level of their land that way it could spawn enemies to fight, like the old mission terminals in SWG, providing an alternate to leveling that doesn't require additional voices (Hey, grinding isn't my thing, but some people like it)

 

I want this!

[mattgyver]

While I am a proponent of the sandbox type content, I have to admit that there is nothing to suggest that the design team will listen to this feedback. The demeanor of communication (written, verbal, non-verbal, and in the actual product) has demonstrated that there is a rigid design philosophy that is resistant to adaptation.

 

Another poster put up a quote from an ex bioware dev that went something like, "we just want to put out awesome stuff. stop acting like producers telling us when and how to produce content."

 

This is the most ignorant statement that could have been made. This game isn't some multimillion dollar toy for computer programmers, it's a toy for us. I don't care if their eyes bleed because they hate what they put in, it better be what the customers want.

 

At this point many voices are asking for features that are obviously from the wall of crazy, or outside of the original idea of the basic design. BW can plant their feet, or they can respond by being able to change.

[Goretzu]

Both themeparks and sandboxes have their strengths and weaknesses, as with anything else in life.

But a recurring and growing theme on the Internet these days is one of polarity. You can't be for x without being against y. A movie or a game can only be the best ever or the worst ever, but never anything in between.

 

Now, there is something important to be said for developing a theme and sticking with it. You risk muddying your experience and the goal of your design if you stray too far from your ideology. Star Wars Galaxies is an example of that: a sandbox game that tried to become a themepark, with mixed results.

 

However, I don't see a specific reason that SWTOR couldn't add a completely sandbox planet as an expansion or content patch. A wide open world with wild spawns. Three cities; one is a hub for Imperials, one for Republic, with a contested city in the middle of the map. Spawns increase in difficulty from level 10 to level 50 as you stray farther from the hubs; no quests, just a pure sandbox environment to play in with cave systems to explore, a city to control factionally, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the bulk of the game offers the full themepark experience (as it does now). I think a sandbox type planet (maybe Dantooine) provides an alternate means of both leveling and PvPing without taking away from the focused story-driven environment that players are introduced to first.

 

 

Yep, it could.

 

 

 

A "Jump to Lightspeed" space expansion is a no brainer, if they just copied JTL got rid of the more annoying bits and injected a bit more over all fun (and maybe a bit of themepark story into it too!).

 

 

What Rift is doing with RvR(vR) seems like a great idea to replace Ilum (or something like GW2 WvWvW).

 

 

But could work excellently and seemlessly with the current SWTOR (and there are many more examples).

[ConradLionhart]

Another poster put up a quote from an ex bioware dev that went something like, "we just want to put out awesome stuff. stop acting like producers telling us when and how to produce content."

 

I agree totally with that. If they had not listened to the initial gamers complaining about server queues, and opened up new servers, there would not be this under population problem that we have right now.

 

Most of the time gamers don't know what they're talking about, and end up causing problems that they expect Bioware to clean up, when they were the ones who suggested it.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Most of the time gamers don't know what they're talking about

 

Right. Gamers totally not know what´s entertaining. They just don´t realize that corridor planets with exhaustion zones are more fun than open world planets and rail shooters are in fact more fun than a populated sandbox universe to travel around and explore.

 

[Bafucin]

Personally I would like a little of both.

 

Theme parks are great for scripted content and for a challenge. Sandboxes allow an active community to not only enjoy the fun the game provides, but to organise their own.

 

While people will knock SWG for being bad, which it was in many ways, what it did well was encourage players to make their own game and their own events.

 

One of the problems with SWTOR is detachment. I have no real investment in my character or the world. I know when I log off, the world will still be there, doing what it does. The phasing takes the massive out of the game for me, and while people go on about community, I don't actually think there is much of one. Sure guilds get together and play, but not much else.

 

At least with sandbox elements, I know if I log off, my player-run city or base might not be there when I come back and I may have a task ahead of me helping the rebuild. While some players don't like this approach, I do. It adds unpredictability and investment in your game. Something I just don't get with SWTOR.

 

I agree to this.

[Goretzu]

I agree totally with that. If they had not listened to the initial gamers complaining about server queues, and opened up new servers, there would not be this under population problem that we have right now.

 

Most of the time gamers don't know what they're talking about, and end up causing problems that they expect Bioware to clean up, when they were the ones who suggested it.

 

 

1. There was no way they could have left 6+ hour long server queues - I was having to get someone to log me into the queue at lunch time so I had a chance at playing for 6pm.
   
2. Even the advance release servers are mostly "Light" during Prime Times these days, there's no way they could have released with the number of servers they need now at release. They maybe need 25% of the total servers now, that would have caused meltdown at release trying to fit 1.8m people onto those few servers.
   

 

 

 

 

They needed to have a plan to account for the release surge, they didn't, or at least not one that worked.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Goretzu

[ConradLionhart]

Right. Gamers totally not know what´s entertaining. They just don´t realize that corridor planets with exhaustion zones are more fun than open world planets and rail shooters are in fact more fun than a populated sandbox universe to travel around and explore.

 

 

Oh I'm sorry, did I strike a nerve? I don't recall specifically mentioning anyone in my post, and I was only targeting the people who asked for more servers at the start.

 

If you are one of those people, you deserve your empty server because you asked for it, remember?

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Oh I'm sorry, did I strike a nerve? I don't recall specifically mentioning anyone in my post, and I was only targeting the people who asked for more servers at the start.

 

If you are one of those people, you deserve your empty server because you asked for it, remember?

 

I never asked for any server, started in January and the servers were already there. Look at my join date instead of making assumptions.

 

Talking about server numbers in 2012 is lame anyway, if BW can´t manage to come up with virtual single server technology, it´s their fault for working with technology from 2008.

 

Funcom can do it, Cryptic can do it, others too, but king BW has never heard about single server shards. LAME.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[TheAincient]

Personally I would like a little of both.

 

Theme parks are great for scripted content and for a challenge. Sandboxes allow an active community to not only enjoy the fun the game provides, but to organise their own.

 

While people will knock SWG for being bad, which it was in many ways, what it did well was encourage players to make their own game and their own events.

 

One of the problems with SWTOR is detachment. I have no real investment in my character or the world. I know when I log off, the world will still be there, doing what it does. The phasing takes the massive out of the game for me, and while people go on about community, I don't actually think there is much of one. Sure guilds get together and play, but not much else.

 

At least with sandbox elements, I know if I log off, my player-run city or base might not be there when I come back and I may have a task ahead of me helping the rebuild. While some players don't like this approach, I do. It adds unpredictability and investment in your game. Something I just don't get with SWTOR.

 

I totally agree with this, actually a whole group of us have canceled our subs.

IMO there needs to be the right balance of Theme Park and Sandbox, this game does not have it currently, we may return if many more sandbox features are added.

 

Theme Parks are great at getting players into the game, but IMO not good at keeping them, in a sandbox players make an investment in their characters, Ships, Vehicles and houses. One feels an attachment to your characters, which I don't feel in this game.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TheAincient

[EzoEo]

I like both genres but it is obvious SW:TOR will never be a sandbox game and players wanting it to become one need to look elsewhere.

 

Who knows what else they have planned when it comes to space and other parts of the game, SW:TOR is still a young game and the first year in an MMO is often the worse.

 

If you want to play a sandbox then the option you have is find one and play it as themepark MMOs rarely change from the original design.

[Nicolettexiv]

I really enjoy sandbox. It was the concept that drew me to MMOs in the first place (SWG was my first.) As a child, I remember playing Zac McKracken (sp?) or something to that effect, and wishing I could do what I wanted in video games rather than being restricted to a few developed areas with specific goals. SWG suited that need - it blew my mind when I was first introduced to it - I could quest, explore, level certain skills, spend my time dancing in a cantina if I wanted, scouting the best sites for a house, etc. - in other words, exactly what I had wanted in a game.

 

The theme park aspect can help, especially for those without direction - especially who are adapted to theme park style gaming - who have no idea what to do. Who NEED direction. Thus, I think it would be great to have a combination of the two. Not restrictive, but guidance where you need it, if you need it.

[Goretzu]

I like both genres but it is obvious SW:TOR will never be a sandbox game and players wanting it to become one need to look elsewhere.

 

What is a sandbox game?

 

 

SWTOR can certainly have:

 

A "Jump to Lightspeed" style expansion - I can't think of one reason why this couldn't be added (except for development cost).

 

A RvR system like the RvRvR system currently being added to Rift (again a supposed "themepark" game) or like the WvWvW system in GW2.

 

 

 

There's no reason a supposed "themepark" MMORPG (which in SWTORs case seems to mean a very static MMORPG with full voiced quests - not entirely sure why that's a "themepark"), can't have sandy features or even a sandy expansion.

[BlueFromMoon]

What is a sandbox game?

 

 

SWTOR can certainly have:

 

A "Jump to Lightspeed" style expansion - I can't think of one reason why this couldn't be added (except for development cost).

 

A RvR system like the RvRvR system currently being added to Rift (again a supposed "themepark" game) or like the WvWvW system in GW2.

 

 

 

There's no reason a supposed "themepark" MMORPG (which in SWTORs case seems to mean a very static MMORPG with full voiced quests - not entirely sure why that's a "themepark"), can't have sandy features or even a sandy expansion.

 

Things like this doesnt save the game, period. Most are waiting Elder Scroll Online, IMHO.

[EzoEo]

What is a sandbox game?

 

 

SWTOR can certainly have:

 

A "Jump to Lightspeed" style expansion - I can't think of one reason why this couldn't be added (except for development cost).

 

A RvR system like the RvRvR system currently being added to Rift (again a supposed "themepark" game) or like the WvWvW system in GW2.

 

 

 

There's no reason a supposed "themepark" MMORPG (which in SWTORs case seems to mean a very static MMORPG with full voiced quests - not entirely sure why that's a "themepark"), can't have sandy features or even a sandy expansion.

 

Space in JTL and SW:TOR obviously work in different ways which could prevent sandbox space. JTL was more free form space when SW:TOR is isn't so I don't think it's a certainity..

 

Bioware games have always been about story and taking the player on adventure through that story so future expansion will be in a similar mold.

 

They could add other lvl 50 activiies such collections, factions and further alternate advancement.

 

I just don't think vanilla SW:TOR is really set-up for many sandox elements at present.

[Goretzu]

Space in JTL and SW:TOR obviously work in different ways which could prevent sandbox space. JTL was more free form space when SW:TOR is isn't so I don't think it's a certainity..

 

Bioware games have always been about story and taking the player on adventure through that story so future expansion will be in a similar mold.

 

They could add other lvl 50 activiies such collections, factions and further alternate advancement.

 

I just don't think vanilla SW:TOR is really set-up for many sandox elements at present.

 

 

Space doesn't exist in SWTOR at the moment, all that exists is a few mini-games.

A space expansion can be whatever it wants to be.

 

Something like a MMO version of Freelancer with a strong central story missions (al la Bioware), but with a much more open and sandbox galaxy (al la JTL) would be amazing.

 

 

 

 

SWTOR also desperately needs RvR.

 

When you look at what Rift is doing (3 faction RvR or RvRvR) there's no reason it could not work in SWTOR, GW2 is a similar idea, but perhaps wouldn't work with the current factional system.

[Moaky]

I think theme park MMOs is a dead end.

 

True "next-generation" game should be a neat mix of both theme park and sandbox.

 

You think wrong. A game is always going to be mostly themepark. People are consumers on avg...not producers.

 

In general, folks are not going to pay for Uncle Owen, and forced PVP. The Uncle Owen target audience plays farmville, and PVP is better suited to other video game genres. That leaves allowing folks to alter the game be it housing or producing content. Like I said prior, folks on avg look for rdy made content by devs....not armchair devs, nor are they looking to make their own.

 

EQ was as "sandboxy" as a game needs to be. At least if it hopes to have a plethora of subs.

 

A game needs to supply a never ending amount of PVE if it wishes to keep folks happy. Which is why I dont understand the underwhelming amount being produced by BW.

[Hojdar]

Two things to keep in mind

1: A sandbox game is highly dependent on its playerbase and community to function

2: That the SWTOR community seems to be a bunch of whiny babies

 

If SWTOR was a sandbox game, it would probably be the closest thing to a sandbox we could get in the virtual world. People would be bashing each other with little red toy trucks and crying for their mommy because they got sand in their mouth

 

I think Bioware made the right choice in not making this a sandbox game

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

"SPACE" is the last exit for BW to create something unique.

 

Look at it that way:

EvE is the only space sandbox there is. But EvE Combat is very non-action like, feels almost passive round based. It has it´s appeal, I like it, but there is no space combat sand box PvP game AT ALL which is action-based like you would expect from a Star Wars game.

 

If BW manages to do something like JTL, I guarantee the 400.000 lost subs will be back, and more!

 

a) Sandbox cross server universe

b) epic flashpoint like PvE battles taking place at certain times, annoucements on fleet

c) "natural happening" PvP during travelling, mining, exploring

 

This could totally make up and excuse the corridor starter planets, if the "after lvl 50" Planets get more like open world, bigger and with more exploration appeal. SWTOR is easy to fix, the core mechanics work. Just make the right decisions how to proceed, Bioware! Please!

Edited May 16, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst