Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Deyjarl]

It may be a "snoozefest" for some,

 

Some? Again, the game has enough players to keep going and that is it. It scrapes by. It is a snoozefest for the vast majority of players who have no interest in it and never have. Wow, EVE players have an over hyped sense of significance for that game.

[Andryah]

This is a circular debate with no ending.

 

Some people prefer the bread crumb friendliness of theme park, particularly if they don't bask in leveling and just want to get to end game a quickly as possible. Some people prefer completely unstructured sand box play.

 

The thing is, if you aspire to be a large successful MMO property, you go theme park because that represents the majority of the available player base. It's a sound business approach. And no MMO needs to attract everyone to it, so there is no reason to take an MMO and distort it simply to please a minority.

 

EVE while successful, is also small in size and always has been. It serves a audience that wants sandbox, but that is more of a niche audience then a mass audience. It is probably the most successful sand box ever, but it has had it's issues over time and it has never attracted more then a fraction of the available player base.

 

NOW, the nice thing about the SWTOR planet approach is that they could inject sandbox into the game at any time in the future (expansions for example, or major patch updates) and do so in a manner that does not distort the theme park elements that are it's core. For example, they could launch an expansion that includes one or more planets that are sand box play with level constraints (like 48-50 cap, or 1-10 cap, etc.) They also have regionalized the galaxy, so they could introduce sandbox ship exploration and ship to ship combat in a special sector of space at some point in time as well.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Andryah

[Dayln]

Sandbox MMO's have historically only appealed to a niche market

 

This game was not aimed at that small of a market.

[mattgyver]

Needs to have both. Theme Park to pay for the game, Sandbox for replayability.

[Kalfear]

This is a circular debate with no ending.

 

.

 

yup

 

The mass majority of players prefer themepark, that is known based soly on sales figures and subscription paterns of previous games.

 

But on the forums I normally see the sandboxers come in force so they give this misdirection of being larger pool of players then they really are.

 

So in the end you go back and forth, back and forth, and its meaningless.

 

I will say one thing though, reading these threads since returning after a number of years break (finished in EQ2 before any expansion and came back for RIFT), at least 60%-70% of those that argue in favor of Sandbox have no clue what sandbox is, so that really blurs the lines of what these people argueing about!

 

In the end though, this genre will stay themepark designed because the long term sales figures are not there to support sandbox. If they were, companies would have made a AAA Sandbox mmo by now. No one has.

 

Eve is a small niche game

Arch Age (upcoming) is a small niche game on a small budget

SWG is closed

UO been dead for ever

others never even got off the ground

 

Doesnt matter what you like or hate, Sandbox doesnt sell so I dont see sandbox being added to TOR (or any other big release MMO) anytime soon. The numbers to support it simply not there and never have been.

[veyl]

This game should've been a hybrid of both to be bold and innovative...

and should never have used the hero engine.

 

I'm willing to bet that Blizzards new MMO will be a hybrid because that's the only future MMO's have left. I'm not a fan boy of Blizzard, but I do feel that they're willing to take a risk where other MMO teams have just followed their *revised* leads on how to make a MMO successful. (Since we all know Blizzard borrowed from Ultima//eq...etc etc... they just made it blow up in popularity.)

Edited April 27, 2012 by veyl

[mattgyver]

yup

 

The mass majority of players prefer themepark, that is known based soly on sales figures and subscription paterns of previous games.

 

But on the forums I normally see the sandboxers come in force so they give this misdirection of being larger pool of players then they really are.

 

So in the end you go back and forth, back and forth, and its meaningless.

 

I will say one thing though, reading these threads since returning after a number of years break (finished in EQ2 before any expansion and came back for RIFT), at least 60%-70% of those that argue in favor of Sandbox have no clue what sandbox is, so that really blurs the lines of what these people argueing about!

 

In the end though, this genre will stay themepark designed because the long term sales figures are not there to support sandbox. If they were, companies would have made a AAA Sandbox mmo by now. No one has.

 

Eve is a small niche game

Arch Age (upcoming) is a small niche game on a small budget

SWG is closed

UO been dead for ever

others never even got off the ground

 

Doesnt matter what you like or hate, Sandbox doesnt sell so I dont see sandbox being added to TOR (or any other big release MMO) anytime soon. The numbers to support it simply not there and never have been.

 

Wouldn't Mass Audience + Niche Audience be a better business outcome? Or do you assert the play types are mutually exclusive?

[Esquire]

Hate to almost say this, but if SWG's NGE was still up, I'd be over there instead of here.

[mattgyver]

Hate to almost say this, but if SWG's NGE was still up, I'd be over there instead of here.

 

There's going to be a lot of posters that hated that you said that too, lol.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

mechanics, graphics, game play in general... bleh. And those thousands are the only people playing at all.

 

I need to call BS on the whole statement, sorry

[vincent-]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

The pot calling the kettle black.

 

Turning out the same crap doesn't mean you will get the same $$$ profit for the 8th time. This falls under both theme park and sand box games.

[Pheroras]

it would be interesting to have some planets be theme park and story related while others would be focused on Codex unlocks, Lore, exploration and grinding/gathering. this could be separated by gradations of mobs, so that a lowbie could comfortably grind a particular area with little worry of being killed by npcs 10 ranks higher. the areas could be delineated by exhaustion zones so that cross factional encounters could be avoided on PvE servers, with the idea that there would be one or two crossing over points that only endgame explorers would dare to venture into.

 

for example the Lore of Hoth and the vast empty expanses in the game beg for an expansion of this sort. KotOR did a fabulous job of holding the players as much as, if not more than, through the discovery of the Lore than it did in actual gameplay experience. This is something that, in the present game, for all the story that is told, needs to be given more depth. I only hope that future expansions of the game address this segment of the audience-participant.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Pheroras

[Glorionn]

Lol at the imbecile that claimed archeage was small sandbox with small budget. In actual fact it's a theme park meets sand box game, as evidenced by the style of leveling and the different continents. Although its budged was 1/4 of swtors, the money is being spent on things that people actually care about.

[Esquire]

"Eve is a small niche game

Arch Age (upcoming) is a small niche game on a small budget

SWG is closed

UO been dead for ever

others never even got off the ground"

 

Lets look at this with a bit of both directions, shall we?

 

EVE is not a small niche game. Last I heard it was a steady 300K subs and rising, even after being around for quite a while, it's still rising in subs. However, it is hardcore, with a large learning curve, the people who started 1st will always be better than you starting after, and last time I tried it you were only a ship. The ship deal is probably what makes it more of a "niche" game rather than the sandbox elements. I like sandbox but I just couldn't get by just being a ship.

 

ArchAge is not even out yet so no1 has any idea if it will be niche or a massive hit. Indy games tend to have small bugects. Nature of the product. All the AAA studios seem to not want to break the mold with the WoW clones and we see them fail, one right after another, go F2P taking their last gasp, and fade away into oblivian. I'm sure even Bliz had no idea when they launched WoW being the EQ clone it was that it would do so good.

 

SWG is closed. However, for it's day, it was the 2nd largest MMO of it's time. 2nd only to EQ. What screwed that up? How about at least 3, count em 3, total game revamps with CU, NGE, and C6CD. BTW, alot of these BioWare developers were "stolen" from SOE and their large claim to fame is that NGE deal. I even remember Dallas Dickerson from SWG. Some of the good ones are over here as well such as Adept-Strain. Does that mean that TOR, if it doesn't do as well as WoW will get yet another NGE as well? STO did their version of an NGE going to F2P this year in fact, so an NGE can and does still happen.

 

UO was 1st and appearently it's not taken into consideration simple subscription attrition or the fact that there just wasn't that many playing MMOs in their infancy when UO was new, bright, and shiney. Rubenfield said 220K subs for UO after trammel. How many subs are bleeding off here each month with attrition? The fact of the matter is, it's still up, after what? 13 years? You actualy believe that STO, RIFT, CO, AoC will even get close to saying they've been up for 13+ years? Or any other of the WoW clones, to be honest. GWs was not up for 13 years and it's getting GW2 now. It would seem that the life expectancy of an MMO these days is that of a toddler in real life equations.

 

Here's the kicker tho, do you honestly believe that TOR will still be up after 13 years? Does BioWare? That's the 64 dollar question right there in a nutshell. Is there enough of a rabid fanbase to keep it up and going, nonstop, for that period of time, expecialy with the Lucas Arts IP fees that SWG couldn't make anylonger? Will it even make 8+ like SWG with it's aprox 30K rabid fanbase at closing? BioWare needs to answer that question, not me.

 

Maybe some in this thread are right. In order to get that rabid fanbase, that EVE, SWG, and UO has/had maybe BW Austin needs to actualy think about being more than just another WoW clone with lightsabers. The themepark players seem to gravitate on to the next shiney WAY more than the sandbox players do. Maybe that's due to the fact that themeparks end when the story is done and like console games, you throw that 1 on the shelf and head for Gamestop to go get another one. And no developer can keep up with the unsatiable appetite of themepark players for MORE CONTENT AND NOW!!!!!!!! (threads here already on 1.3 and 1.2 isn't even cold in the box as yet) Not even the mighty Bliz with it's supposed 100 man dev team. Those "goofy sandbox" players make their own content and actualy pay for the privilage. What a bunch of noobs, huh? There are at least 3 new shineys coming out this year. Take a good look at these forums right now of how many are talking about beating feet for these new shineys and I think you'll see exactly what I mean by that.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Esquire

[Deyjarl]

I need to call BS on the whole statement, sorry

 

Call BS all you want. It won't make it any less true on what I thought of it, nor change the fact that the game has a very small active audience.

 

Why do you think it has a small audience? You think people are loving the game but just not playing it? Really?

 

EVE fans are some of the biggest fanbois in denial.

[jarjarloves]

"Eve is a small niche game

Arch Age (upcoming) is a small niche game on a small budget

SWG is closed

UO been dead for ever

others never even got off the ground"

 

Lets look at this with a bit of both directions, shall we?

 

EVE is not a small niche game. Last I heard it was a steady 300K subs and rising, even after being around for quite a while, it's still rising in subs. However, it is hardcore, with a large learning curve, the people who started 1st will always be better than you starting after, and last time I tried it you were only a ship. The ship deal is probably what makes it more of a "niche" game rather than the sandbox elements. I like sandbox but I just couldn't get by just being a ship.

 

ArchAge is not even out yet so no1 has any idea if it will be niche or a massive hit. Indy games tend to have small bugects. Nature of the product. All the AAA studios seem to not want to break the mold with the WoW clones and we see them fail, one right after another, go F2P taking their last gasp, and fade away into oblivian. I'm sure even Bliz had no idea when they launched WoW being the EQ clone it was that it would do so good.

 

SWG is closed. However, for it's day, it was the 2nd largest MMO of it's time. 2nd only to EQ. What screwed that up? How about at least 3, count em 3, total game revamps with CU, NGE, and C6CD. BTW, alot of these BioWare developers were "stolen" from SOE and their large claim to fame is that NGE deal. I even remember Dallas Dickerson from SWG. Some of the good ones are over here as well such as Adept-Strain. Does that mean that TOR, if it doesn't do as well as WoW will get yet another NGE as well? STO did their version of an NGE going to F2P this year in fact, so an NGE can and does still happen.

 

UO was 1st and appearently it's not taken into consideration simple subscription attrition or the fact that there just wasn't that many playing MMOs in their infancy when UO was new, bright, and shiney. Rubenfield said 220K subs for UO after trammel. How many subs are bleeding off here each month with attrition? The fact of the matter is, it's still up, after what? 13 years? You actualy believe that STO, RIFT, CO, AoC will even get close to saying they've been up for 13+ years? Or any other of the WoW clones, to be honest. GWs was not up for 13 years and it's getting GW2 now. It would seem that the life expectancy of an MMO these days is that of a toddler in real life equations.

 

Here's the kicker tho, do you honestly believe that TOR will still be up after 13 years? Does BioWare? That's the 64 dollar question right there in a nutshell. Is there enough of a rabid fanbase to keep it up and going, nonstop, for that period of time, expecialy with the Lucas Arts IP fees that SWG couldn't make anylonger? Will it even make 8+ like SWG with it's aprox 30K rabid fanbase at closing? BioWare needs to answer that question, not me.

 

Maybe some in this thread are right. In order to get that rabid fanbase, that EVE, SWG, and UO has/had maybe BW Austin needs to actualy think about being more than just another WoW clone with lightsabers. The themepark players seem to gravitate on to the next shiney WAY more than the sandbox players do. Maybe that's due to the fact that themeparks end when the story is done and like console games, you throw that 1 on the shelf and head for Gamestop to go get another one. And no developer can keep up with the unsatiable appetite of themepark players for MORE CONTENT AND NOW!!!!!!!! (threads here already on 1.3 and 1.2 isn't even cold in the box as yet) Not even the mighty Bliz with it's supposed 100 man dev team. Those "goofy sandbox" players make their own content and actualy pay for the privilage. What a bunch of noobs, huh? There are at least 3 new shineys coming out this year. Take a good look at these forums right now of how many are talking about beating feet for these new shineys and I think you'll see exactly what I mean by that.

 

less then 1 million in todays market is a niche game sorry. The market is much much bigger then it once was as for the other games. If you add up the population of every Sandbox MMO out now I doubt it would even reach 1 million.

 

1. EvE 300k is incredibly small sorry but thats how it is. EvE is a great game but it will never reach a wide audience.

 

 

 

2. SWG - I strongly recomed you read this article FROM A SWG DEVELOPER http://rubenfield.com/?p=86 It had a huge launch but people left incredbily fast. By the time they went to the CU and NGE they were already losing subs at a rate of 10k a month and where down to 160k subs. That is a HUGE failure.

 

3. UO yeah at it's peak it had 220k which is nice since it cost nothing to make but it was still a niche market. It hasn't had anywhere near 220k for years now the only reason it's still running is because it costs almost nothing to keep it up.

 

 

Now I do believe that the answer lies in between Themepark and Sandbox. You need elements of both for long term success but it's not something you have at launch it something you grow and Bioware seems to be heading that direction with Guild Capital ships and adding stuff to your ship but it's going to take time.

 

After playing GW2 this weekend I can safely say that TOR isn't in any danger of dying any time soon.

Edited April 29, 2012 by jarjarloves

[JerokTalram]

OP I'm pretty sure Lord of the Rings Online, World of Warcraft are really Theme Parks not sandboxes. Wow pretty much started the Theme Park Craze. That's why Kash and every planet after it in SWG were Theme Parks as well as the class missions from NGE. Not saying that Wow and Lotro don't have some wide open areas like a sandbox but the primary way to level to follow a quest line from area to area. Much different than taking random missions from a mission terminals on any planet and running them to level.

[jarjarloves]

Which themepark MMORPGs have "succeeded massively"? (besides WoW - and frankly I wouldn't call WoW purely themepark anyway)

 

are you kidding? It has added sandbox elements in the later expansions but from the very begining to now it is still very much a Themepark MMO.

 

As for others that are succesful how about EQ?

 

or lesser succesful ones (or I should say more succesful then the average Sandbox MMO) AoC, EQ2, LotrO, DDO and many more.

 

Now your turn name some succesful Sandbox MMOs.

[Sammm]

I think we're living in a new golden age of gaming. I'm so glad that I have so many games to choose from.

 

Anyway, I love both concepts. To me, a theme park game is like an amusement park rollercoaster vs a sandbox game which is more like a camping trip in the wilderness. I just need my weekly dose of both.

 

Though I have to admit something: when I play a sandbox game, it requires for me much more time, energy and dedication. Maybe that's one of the reasons why theme park games seem to thrive more.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Sammm

[Darkulous]

I think it's impossible to please everyone with one singular MMO. The LFD tool is the prime example of that. If you implement it, you piss off a bunch of people. If you don't implement it, again, people are pissed. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

[JerokTalram]

SWG lost 70% of its paid subscribers in their first month of playing, that number rose to 80% by the 3rd month of people playing. The 20% that remained to be slowly dwindled away at with the CU, Village, NGE and other updates like to think they were this strong force of hundreads and hundreads of thousands of players, but the released numbers back then dont support those claims. SWG was not a STRONG presence for long at all.

 

Okay, you are going to have to give a source for this 70% loss of paid subscribers in the first month. Or don't bother because I'm sure you made it up. There's always some drop off because people find they don't like the game but it wasn't that much. The first major drop off in SWG subscriptions probably didn't come 'til december when they nerfed Creature Handlers.

 

Edit: Here lets just do the math. August 2003, SWG had around 300,000 subscribers. If that was only 70% of what they had in July, They must have had 1 Million. Oh wait they didn't sell a Million copies of the game until 2 years later in August 2005. Hmm so they couldn't have drop 70% after the first month.

Edited April 29, 2012 by JerokTalram

[Huatar]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

EVE Online is the definitive sandbox MMO.

[Kalfear]

 

Just cover a few things here

 

UO was not first, it was 7th to be exact.

SWG was 2nd largest for 1 month, yup 1 month. Initial release and then 70% canceled in the first month. SWG was never the monster hit you fans like to make it out to be. Anyone that played it knows this to be true. Just a matter of them admitting it.

Yes Arch Age could be a massive surprise hit. And I could win 50 million dollars on next weeks 30 million dollar lotto draw. Both have about the same chance of happening. When you have a small budget and use a mechanic known to be a nitch play style, smart money says its a small nitch game at best.

Eve, see above for niche game, out how many years and still not very big at all.

 

Btw, UO was only popular when it was the new thing on the block and its only competition was the old turn based style (and the meridian 59 engine from SSI Ravenloft series) games that started the MMORPG genre. Soon as EQ opened, UO went in the crapper literally and was dead dead dead and empty. So UO was #1 when it had no real competition. Not exactly what I vcall a glowing reveiw.

 

Do I think this game will be around in 13 years? Not a chance unless EAoware starts making a MMO. Im not sticking up for the massively single player game EAoware has made here. But adding to their screw up by going sandbox (when at least 70% of those posting about sandbox in this and other threads have no clue what sandbox is beyond a internet fan term they hooked onto) doesnt fix this game, in fact adding sandbox to this game would bury it over night because it was never designed or developed to utilize sandbox concepts.

 

As for the rabid sandbox fanbase. Yes that 100 people are very rabid. No doubt about it. And their numbers are also so small they simply can not support a AAA MMORPG in this day and age.

 

TOR is not a good Themepark MMORPG at this moment. Thats on EAoware 100%. But adding failed and unpopular design features to the already existing problems doesnt help anyone. Not the players, not the developers, not the investors. EAoware went Themepark but forgot to put the social interaction community in game. So now they have this theme park MMO with no heart and soul. Thats what then need to fix. Not change design approach as others have suggested.

 

Sandbox design will have its day when technology meets up with current sci fi concepts like ST holosuits, Centari (the BSG spin off) mind MMO where you hook into a fully developed sandbox world and take part in there, and other sci fi concepts. Right now we limited to look ing at ascreen and playing a game inside the parameters of the developers and for that, Sandbox will never rule. Because its still to limited to be true sandbox.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Someone of the sandbox hater minority please put down a list what exactly is supposed to be "bad" about sandbox concepts in general, because it seems some do not have a clue and simply like to bash SWG or EVE without any reasoning. Also I'd like an explanation why they think story, voiceacting and flashpoints should not work in a sandbox...

[Goretzu]

Okay, you are going to have to give a source for this 70% loss of paid subscribers in the first month. Or don't bother because I'm sure you made it up. There's always some drop off because people find they don't like the game but it wasn't that much. The first major drop off in SWG subscriptions probably didn't come 'til december when they nerfed Creature Handlers.

 

Edit: Here lets just do the math. August 2003, SWG had around 300,000 subscribers. If that was only 70% of what they had in July, They must have had 1 Million. Oh wait they didn't sell a Million copies of the game until 2 years later in August 2005. Hmm so they couldn't have drop 70% after the first month.

 

Yeah they did quite well for a while, held a 300,000 (which at the time made it the 2nd or 3rd biggest Western MMO).

 

SWG did slowly die, but they it could be argued it was slowly killed.

 

But it certainly didn't bomb, nor was it unsuccessful for it's time, but the time its subs really started to nose dive WoW was well estabilised.