Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[river]

according to the polls, the majority prefers sandbox games or at least the use of sandbox elements in a sandbox/themepark hybrid

 

if that is the case i am surprised at the lack of sandox elements in this game. its linear and confined to say the least, its great for leveling and establishing lore but it gets boring in endgame. this game needs to open its maps up and lets us explore get lost on these planets just like in swg. the thing the swg was missing was all these themepark features and the one thing that TOR is missing is a lot of sandbox elements( which i have been suggesting on the forums for years) all we need is a nice medium of story quests and open-eneded spaces to build cities bases, swoop racing, slot machines , being able to sit in a cantina and drink some sort of ale that gets you with a drunk debuff, rp lore environmental interaction from artifacts to npcs. this game is very cookie cutter atm but has a lot of potential lets hope they do the right thing. games out there like skyrim and GTA4 are great examples of sandbox/themepark gaming, they are very successful and i hope bioware will look for inspiration there instead of barrowing everything from strictly themepark developers

[JoanneK]

As has been said already, a damned thorough indepth to the last detail sandbox with multiple smaller themeparks placed in it in a nonlinear construction. To illustrate for those who can relate to this, imagine this game broken into its seperate story components and then placed into SWGs open plan sandbox world, that for me would pretty much satisfy just about everyone.

 

Using the above:

i) non-combat sure go for it, we have tons of non-combat stuff, makeup-artist, dancer, crafter, resource gathering, bio-engineering (sort of involves combat but hey).

ii) so you're an economist? go for it, everthing needs replacing eventually due to item degredation from use

iii) combat? hell thats everywhere go knock yerself out with it, maybe even escort your local gun maker to get some nice bits for a discount perhaps .

iv) exploration/adventue? great vast open planet-scapes, points of interest etc etc etc go get lost for hours

v) in game events, yep both publisher driven and player created, we have tons of em

vi) space? got that also, and its highly customisable as we all know, proper 3d free flight, cockpt views, muli-player ships etc etc and the best bit, they're all player made complete with rare schematics here n there, what would star wars be without a decent space game in it.

vii) pvp, got that covered from pretty much all angles and its emphasis is on world pvp

viii) crafting and gathering, does it really get any more involving and rewarding than SWGs crafting a resource models?

ix) socialising/community yep we got masses of class interdepencies

x) 'unique' characters yep we got that, right from armor appearances being user determined all the way down to your skillset/build, your character is defined by how you want it to play not by what you're told you can have.

xi) Travel, well ya got mechanical and organic mounts and combat pets, all player built/created ofc, the animals have to grow first though so you can have a hell of a time handling them and training them then selling them on to the shooty fighty types and they'll end up killing them or they'll die of old age and need another one

xii) proper implementation of player built towns/settlements thus the scenery gradually changes/evolves ofc not every planet is suitable for settlement.

xiii) no simplistic level indicator, no more of this, mob i x level ,i'll kill it, instead you genuinely dont know until you shoot / hit / stab / kick it.

xiv) Skill trainers, yeah we have those 2, but guess what? your friend knows the skill so just learn it off of them

 

The main point being that if you dont like doing something then you dont need to do it, you're free to play how you wish. All items and consumables would be player created and interactible right down to the furninture, not to mention the plethora of equipment that will eventualy need to be replaced so we have a damned good economic base there to keep people rotating through the markets and content for materials and credits/resources. Maybe people would actually play the game for the purpose of playing rather than egotistical purposes. Ofc there would be some progressive content but with more purpose other than ego RNG looting like most MMOs seem to be these days afterall you want the best materials for that new gun/ sword/ knuckle duster/ lightsaber you want right?

 

Just my take on the discussion.

[Stellin]

 

Blizzard doesn't like you. Bioware doesn't like you either! You just watch yourself. We're wanted games. I have millions of subscribers on twelve systems.

 

This made me LOL

[Tarka]

Right now, the way how I see it is that SWTOR is like a long road lined with concrete walls, with a couple of side roads that branch off for not very far and then connect back to the same main road.

 

There's no chance of getting off that road permanently. No chance of changing your vehicle. No chance of changing what travels with you. People can jump into your vehicle but they cannot participate in the ride very much.

 

 

What I would like to see is additional branches from this main road that even have exits to the wilderness that surrounds the main road but cannot be accessed at the moment.

[thominoh]

Honestly.. I think both can Co-exist...

 

I would like to see a HYBRID approach to the sandbox OR theme park.. I believe it is possible to TONE down some of the theme park, to allow more resources into sandboxing.... A sandbox game will always allow for more content, because the players end up creating it themselves.. NO hand holding.. I personally would like to take the old style of MMO gaming such as DAoC, EQ1 and fixes their faults, with a little of WoW.... Add in a splash LoTRO/EQ2 and you have the perfect game.... 50% theme park, and 50% sandbox elements..

Edited April 26, 2012 by thominoh

[Sarfux]

sandbox. Players say they want...but it's boring.

 

If this game was sandbox you would see MANY MORE moaning threads complaining about everything...

 

to be frank themepark > sandbox

 

sandboxes are bore fests.

 

Just look at eve!

 

EVE online...DONT FALL ASLEEP!!!

Edited April 26, 2012 by Sarfux

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Honestly.. I think both can Co-exist...

 

I would like to see a HYBRID approach to the sandbox OR theme park.. I believe it is possible to TONE down some of the theme park, to allow more resources into sandboxing.... A sandbox game will always allow for more content, because the players end up creating it themselves.. NO hand holding.. I personally would like to take the old style of MMO gaming such as DAoC, EQ1 and fixes their faults, with a little of WoW.... Add in a splash LoTRO/EQ2 and you have the perfect game.... 50% theme park, and 50% sandbox elements..

 

And this is what the majority wants too.

 

At the moment the poll says:

 

1. Keep the concept just like it is, WoW found the ultimate MMO recipe, therefore SWTOR should not change that concept. 16% (78)

 

2. Game experience should be less linear, I´d prefer a sandbox/themepark hybrid with less instancing and a shard server system where I can interact with players from all over the world, not being seperated on my server anymore. 50% (251)

 

3. Forget it, I want Star Wars Galaxies 2 - it´s too late for SWTOR to change the concept. Give us a real sandbox game, LucasArts! 30% (150)

 

4. I don´t care because I play everything which has the label "Star Wars" on it. 5% (23)

 

Total votes: 502

 

An overwhelming majority of 80% tends to sandbox-themepark hybrid/full sandbox. And I´m not even surprised. This should make BW think and reconsider some basic fundamentals of the game.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Deyjarl]

They dont.

A lot do, but take eve online for example

 

I would say the same amount of theme park mmo's fail too

 

Why do people keep using EVE as some great success story?

 

Do they make money to keep going? Sure.

 

But that is about it. So no it isn't the best example of a success story.

[Sarfux]

I think SWTOR is mostly themepark but as it continues to mature and grow it will have many aspects of sandbox. in time, in time.

[Deyjarl]

As far as sandbox vs themepark, some of both like this game has for the most part.

 

It would be impossible to make this a sand box game given the number of sandboxes needed for each planet. I think people are expecting way too much.

[Deyjarl]

The thing that amazes me is how badly they've failed with RvR.

 

Mythic isn't the same beast it was. They have gone down hill in their RvR development since the original version of DAoC. I remember quite well the disappointment so many had with their revision of the the RvR map. WAR wasn't any better and a buggier mess than this game at release. They've never recovered since.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Sarfux]

Why do people keep using EVE as some great success story?

 

Do they make money to keep going? Sure.

 

But that is about it. So no it isn't the best example of a success story.

 

EVE is a snoozefest. Little niche enough to keep the most arrogant people alive in that game. Paranoid like CRAZY and don't allow you into their corporations as they call them there, without a full search into your virtual background check with the game. If they don't see anything they like...they flip and kill you.

 

EVE isn't a success story. i wonder to why sometimes tons of people go "oh man...that's eve for ya AWESOME!" what's so awesome about it? Real time skill training where I don't even have to play to gain levels in my skills? Then what's the point of even logging on and playing if there is no reward for playing... lol I never got eve. I did play it for nearly 2 years cause it was the only mmo my friend would play with me. But that's it...did it for him

[ThiborF]

They dont.

A lot do, but take eve online for example

 

I would say the same amount of theme park mmo's fail too

 

Compare numbers both in peak active subscriptions, total box sales, etc. and you'll see Theme Park games have been FAR more popular. You can even remove WoW from that analysis and the result would be the same.

 

The problem I've seen with sandbox games is they go so far sandbox that only a niche crowd ends up staying for the long haul. Even EVE to an extent though one could argue their the sandbox-anomaly that WoW is to theme park games.

 

Take SWG as an example since many seem to Oooh! and Aaah! over how great it was at being sandbox ... and for many people it was boring as hell. Minimal content to do and what little was being dropped in by SOE was usually completed in 1, maybe 2 evenings by even the most casual of players.

Empty worlds that you tended to come across more player harvesters than you did mobs, static number of the same missions out of the mission terminals (ie. picture side quests that you could essentially turn around and repeat once you turned in the current one) etc.

Player housing and cities? Done fairly well except, aside from players RPing a merchant they served little purpose outside of being a glorified warehouse you could decorate. Player cities added a couple minor conveniences.

Crafting? Probably one of the most robust systems I'd seen in any game. Problem? The mechanics of producing anything in even limited quantities could be carpel tunnel inducing.

Classes/Leveling? I'll give SOE credit that they utilized a different system of sorts. However, it was still leveling just in a micromanagement way. Instead of leveling a Sith Warrior to gain better offensive skills, you selected an offensive skill and my using it, skilled it up (ie. leveled it.) Yes, there was more variance of things you could mix together but, it wasn't that far removed from selecting talents. And of course the worst was SOE's stupid limitation of 1 character per server per account. You could have up to (iirc) 10 characters but no more than one on any server unless you bought a 2nd account OR unlocked a force user.

So SOE gave you a sandbox but limited toys. It would be like walking into a 1 acre sandbox in RL and having a single Tonka truck and toy shovel to play with. Sure you can have fun for a little while and maybe, if you're one of those super-imaginative folks, you can find that little nugget that keeps you having fun. But many others are going to look beyond that sandbox and go, "Oooh there's the ice cream shop, and then two doors down is the arcade and after that the movie theater is on the corner before crossing the street to grab dinner at the restaurant.

 

The true answer is there should be elements of both, close to the 60/40 50/50 ranges. Sadly, nobody has really come close to pulling it off and many likely consider it too much financial risk.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

sandbox. Players say they want...but it's boring.

EVE online...DONT FALL ASLEEP!!!

 

EvE is fantastic, I doubt you ever played past the trial. Yeah, people are turned off by the lists of a myriad of items and resources on the galaxy wide trading network. OK. But what exactly is boring about being in a persistent universe with thousands of players at the same time? There are the weirdest sectors, so much to explore, and the scanning for anomalies is something I enjoy since I started with EvE two years ago.

 

So you find huge persistent worlds boring? Hint: There is no reason that a sandbox environment prevents warzones, flashpoints, operations and voice acted storylines.

In Theme Parks everything is a controlled environment. Sandboxes become "alive" being inhabited by players.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Davfor]

This is what i want to see

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=305749

 

Get rid of fixed classes and bring back customization

 

 

This is something I have been saying for a while. Back in my day, I played UO. You didn't have any class but made the class you wanted to be. Or trained. Or picking a class or talents trees. And a big open world is still more fun than everything instanced. People liked WoW because is was a blend of both. Not going to speak about the rest of WoW but just that part. A MMO that is really a RPG and you train in what you want to be. Also, fantasy games are so overused now. SWTOR is in a good direction of being a space/fantasy. No speadsheets in space like EvE.

[Tarka]

 

EVE is a snoozefest. Little niche enough to keep the most arrogant people alive in that game. Paranoid like CRAZY and don't allow you into their corporations as they call them there, without a full search into your virtual background check with the game. If they don't see anything they like...they flip and kill you.

 

EVE isn't a success story. i wonder to why sometimes tons of people go "oh man...that's eve for ya AWESOME!" what's so awesome about it? Real time skill training where I don't even have to play to gain levels in my skills? Then what's the point of even logging on and playing if there is no reward for playing... lol I never got eve. I did play it for nearly 2 years cause it was the only mmo my friend would play with me. But that's it...did it for him

 

Eve is what it is. A full on sandbox. It may be a "snoozefest" for some, but for others its great. Just like we don't all have to be astrophysicists in order to appreciate the beauty of the heavens, so we don't have to be a "fan" of a style of development, or "get it", in order to appreciate how it IS a success in one form or another.

 

One just accepts it for what it does best, whilst being mindful that it isn't the pinnacle in being a "one design suits all".

 

Personally, although I like SOME general sandbox elements found in the game, I'm not a huge fan of Eve in its entirety. I'd like to see SWTOR have a themepark "core", but gain outer layers of "sandboxyness".

 

 

In short: Eve IS a success story. But not one that fits all situations (i.e. a role model for the entirety of the MMO industry). Just like how WoW, whilst being a success story, doesn't fit all situations either.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Tarka

[Lt_Latency]

Theme Park will always win. It's better suited for casual players which bring in the big bucks.

 

Sand box is cool, But tends to require massive time investment to get the most out of that play style. It's not a log in and log out game style.

 

It's a OMG my town I spent days building is under attack but i have to go to work now, What do i do play style.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[Tarka]

Theme Park will always win. It's better suited for casual players which bring in the big bucks.

 

Sand box is cool, But tends to require massive time investment to get the most out of that play style. It's not a log in and log out game style.

 

It's a OMG my town I spent days building is under attack but i have to go to work now, What do i do play style.

 

Which is why both are extremes on the same scale, and why many devs and players alike believe that the "sweet spot" is to be found somewhere in the middle. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Damion Schubert posted a blog about this prior to launch (original source no longer available):

Freedom is a true part of the magic of MMOs, and artificial constraints and mechanics can undermine the fiction and the sense that you are living in the virtual world – and when you have a brand as rich and textured as Star Wars™, the last thing you want to do is undermine it. Even worse, the depth and visual splendor of Star Wars™: The Old Republic would be completely lost if players couldn’t jump off the rails and just live in the space from time to time.

 

I’ve long advocated that moderation is the way to go, and I believe on The Old Republic we are successfully travelling a middle path, a centrist path that takes the strengths of both: provide a directed and balanced game experience inside a lush, free-form Star Wars world.

 

Unfortunately, in my opinion, it would seem that SWTOR has yet to actually hit that "sweet spot".

Edited April 26, 2012 by Tarka

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Which is why both are extremes on the same scale, and why many devs and players alike believe that the "sweet spot" is to be found somewhere in the middle. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, it would seem that SWTOR has yet to actually hit that "sweet spot".

 

I' ve still got hope they will change the planetary concepts for future expansions. I can't believe they will pull off tne same thing with categorized lvl51-100 planets and raise the cap, simply to run through further corridor planets.

I'd prefer 1 huge new cross server sandbox planet anytime over further 15 planet zones of the old design.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Nippon]

I think theme park MMOs is a dead end.

 

True "next-generation" game should be a neat mix of both theme park and sandbox.

 

This....

 

Without some sandbox elements, MMO become stale, mundane and basically a grind....SWTOR is going deeper and deeper down that road and needs to change fast. 1.3 should be about sandbox, open world, proper crafting and non combat classes.

 

Without it this game will go the same way as all other themepark MMO's.....F2P, dead and forgotten.

[eclipce]

preferably a sandbox, but with theme-park features.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

preferably a sandbox, but with theme-park features.

 

exactly, because it's not a contradiction.

Sandbox is "downwards compatible" to theme park. Everything we have in ToR would also work in a sandbox environment.

Unfortunately theme park is not upwards compatible to sandbox and involves a lot of work.. but hey 200 millions and 1.7 million subscribers... such amounts of money can not only be invested in ads, voice acting and Ferraris for the managers.

[Grayseven]

I believe the Sandbox experience is overrated at the least. I dealt with Sandbox in my years over at SWG and after a while it just gets boring.

 

Entire planets with no wilderness area whatsoever because player housing and structures took up every possible free spot until specific "no construction" zones were implemented? And the simple fact that those structures were the ONLY effect players had on the environment? That doesn't strike me as being all that great.

 

Let's not forget the fact that a number of activities took on all the excitement of a job where you did the same thing every day for hours upon hours, tracking information on spreadsheets and scouring the web for information that might give you an edge but probably won't since the edge was taken by the person who posted that information in the first place.

 

The EVE Online sandbox? Even more boring. And if you are new player, you may as well forget having an enjoyable game experience as the old-timers just look at you as fodder and use you accordingly.

 

Theme parks at least have a bunch of things to do. They aren't player designed so they aren't limited to the small or non-existent tool set players have. So what if I have no effect on the environment? I'm not so egotistical to need to feel as if I'm making a difference in a game...I'm here to be entertained.

 

Even the descriptors say it best: Sandbox - one kid with a shovel and a bucket within a small limited area playing make-believe... or Theme Park - a bunch of kids playing with toys they could never make on their own in a much larger area.

 

Since I play games as entertainment, I'll take a Theme Park every day. I don't want to play a game that mimics my real life job in both data collection requirements and boredom.

[DevonDs]

Personally I far prefer theme park. I don't get much out of most sandbox elements.

[Deyjarl]

But what exactly is boring about being in a persistent universe with thousands of players at the same time?

 

mechanics, graphics, game play in general... bleh. And those thousands are the only people playing at all.