Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Arkerus]

This thread is a breeding ground for sandbox fans.

 

I have never seen the "light" with sandbox games. They just don't hold my attention.

 

A single player sandbox game like "just cause 2" is decent but I don't need the rest of you to have fun. That's more single player action anyway.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Arkerus

[Stevoli]

I wouldn't say can't handle, I would say does not want to "find their own fun". Some kids you buy a toy and the'll spend hours using their imagination and the box to find their own fun, and some kids prefer to play with the actual toy.

 

I agree, but a large part of the modern MMO community "grew up" with WoW, it was their first, it's what they expect. Some may like it, but I think it would be a small percentage.

 

Now if you dropped someone into a sandbox who has never played an MMO before, I bet they'd love it.

[Stevoli]

This thread is a breeding ground for sandbox fans.

 

I have never seen the "light" with sandbox games. They just don't hold my attention.

 

A single player sandbox game like "just cause 2" is decent but I don't need the rest of you to have fun. That's more single player action anyway.

 

Yeah I agree with that as well, I played GTA4 for quite a while, and 90% of it was just driving around, running people over, seeing how many cops I could fight off, driving motorcycles into buildings, you know, the typical GTA stuff.

 

I don't think that sort of gameplay would translate very well into an MMO, I think that's what they tried to do with APB. Never tried it though, so don't quote me on that.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Stevoli

[Zangaboing]

Sandbox will be the winner in the MMO genre hands-down. The only problem is developers have yet to create a decent sandbox mmo

[Explosive_Lasers]

Well, the three largest MMOs are theme park MMOs, if that says anything.

 

Most sandbox games are fairly small, and fit in certain niches, compared to theme parks. So, it's more likely that a developer, being a business, would make the more successful genre. It appears that most gamers prefer the theme park, for several possible reasons. A sandbox may have more freedom, but less actual content, and thinks of that nature.

[Stevoli]

Sandbox will be the winner in the MMO genre hands-down. The only problem is developers have yet to create a decent sandbox mmo

 

Did you ever try There.com back when it had a pretty big player base, or SecondLife? Those are straight sandbox games: no quests, no levels, no XP, player built structures and content all over the world.

 

There.com had racing tracks and pretty good physics on the vehicles, but like with every sandbox, when the playerbase starts to dwindle, so does the content, since it's all player driven. They closed down a few years ago, and just recently started back up with an invitation only server.

 

Theme parks give players direction and objectives. They guide you from point A to point B and give you something to accomplish and shoot for. They are also a big draw for the solo players, since it's tough to solo in a sandbox that's player driven.

 

I'm still thinking a good mixture of sandbox and themepark is necessary.

[Aricus]

Well, the three largest MMOs are theme park MMOs, if that says anything.

 

Most sandbox games are fairly small, and fit in certain niches, compared to theme parks. So, it's more likely that a developer, being a business, would make the more successful genre. It appears that most gamers prefer the theme park, for several possible reasons. A sandbox may have more freedom, but less actual content, and thinks of that nature.

 

While your statement is true, the fact is no major developer has made a sandbox mmo recently. The only popular Sandbox MMO is EvE and that dates back to 2003 or 2001 with no financial backing of a company like EA or Activision.

 

Honestly, I'd play EvE if it wasn't a pure space theme.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Aricus

[Zangaboing]

Did you ever try There.com back when it had a pretty big player base, or SecondLife? Those are straight sandbox games: no quests, no levels, no XP, player built structures and content all over the world.

 

There.com had racing tracks and pretty good physics on the vehicles, but like with every sandbox, when the playerbase starts to dwindle, so does the content, since it's all player driven. They closed down a few years ago, and just recently started back up with an invitation only server.

 

Theme parks give players direction and objectives. They guide you from point A to point B and give you something to accomplish and shoot for. They are also a big draw for the solo players, since it's tough to solo in a sandbox that's player driven.

 

I'm still thinking a good mixture of sandbox and themepark is necessary.

 

Sorry, should have made it more obvious that it was a troll post

 

TBH i think that a mix of the 2 is the future, but for now companies just go with the "instant success formula" and just get stomped by wow's boot mercylessly... Its always easier to develop themepark content and provide incentives for players to clear it. You have to be more imaginative when it comes to sandbox, so sometimes it gets risky.

[Huaracocha]

what a load of ********

in vanilla wow there weren't enough quest to get you from 1-60 only through quest, from around level 55 on you had to grind the last half to 3/4 of the level since you didn't have any quest to do

so where the hell are pulling enough quest to level 2 to 3 character without repeating quest from for vanilla wow

 

OT: sandbox MMOs can go to hell and with the exception of EVE they mostly did

 

Okay first of chill out dude, it's just a discussion and just because people don't share your opinion no need for ********.

 

Now then.. we're talking 1-60 and your point only applies to the last 5 levels.

 

I'll give you that there was less freedom to choose your levelling path towards the end of the levelling process. Still, tell me you visited every zone and completed more or less every quest in levelling your first toon in vanilla WoW and I'm afraid I might have to call you a liar. From level 10-50 or so there was a lot of choice and a lot of zones that would, for the vast majority of players, have gone untouched.

 

Now from 50+ it was more linear but you still had some choices and to say you run out of quests is nonsense. Ungoro, Silithus (admittedly low on content in initial vanilla), Blasted Lands, Searing Gorge, Burning Steppes, Western & Eastern Plaguelands offered more than enough to get you from ~48-60 without even bringing in the relevant instances. Now of course if you refuse to visit the "other faction's" island...

 

Anywho you are right that there were less options in the later levels and you would no doubt end up repeating some zones at 50+ on your 2nd toon. Still my basic point stands.

 

Sandbox type games actually have been very succesful over the lifespan of MMO's - they didn't begin with WoW you know ^^

 

Still sandy elements in an MMO are objectively far better than theme park ones and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

 

Oh wait... I'm spouting my own tastes and opinions as facts and also forgetting to use **** expletives and tell theme park games to "go to hell".

 

You see what I did there?

 

[Andryah]

True sandbox MMOs are "Player Driven". They require a thriving community of players willing to sponsor events and keep the economy in check. All gear is crafted, all quests are made up on the spot by the players (Lets go kill <some named mob>), the reward you got was having fun hanging out with your friends.

 

Today's MMO player can't handle any of that, they need to be told what to do and where to go by NPCs. They need instant gratification and shiney loot for completing a quest.

 

Quoted For Truth.

 

If this game was true sandbox, there would be even more raging and QQing then there is already.

[Jist]

Like most others that have posted here I believe the best course is to add both elements to a game. Them park elements to add story, and sandbox elements to keep the players interest. EVE Online is considered a sandbox game but it does include story just not completely in-game a lot of it is outside lore. Not every model will work for every game and therefore to future proof a game it is going to need a good balance of sandbox and them park playing.

This game being set in the SW universe has tons of lore and backstory already set in place...it could easily have done just as well as a sanbox and not a "on the rails" theme park ride. Hope BW adds some sandbox play to the space portion to shake things up a bit along the lines of what SWG did. That in my opinion would make this game perferct.

[Kayden]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

Let's take a look at the long list of Theme park mmo's that became a success.

 

World of Warcraft.

 

 

Well that's about it, I guess we'll all ignore the long list of themepark mmo's that are now F2P or have a customer base that is below Eve's.

 

But I'd love for you to think hard about what Themepark mmo's made it big since WoW.. none? Thought so.

 

 

 

In the end, they'll need to mix it, Sandbox mmo's allow for alot of freedom, and player created content, and Theme parks allow for stuff like... well raids is probably the most positive I have to say about it

[Uluain]

I have seen many posts regarding this subject and the pros and cons of each but I would like to get a feel for what the players really want.

This is a chocolate v. vanilla proposition, and my reply is as it always is: neapolitan.

 

The game should feature theme-park play for those who prefer it and sandbox play for those who favor that. But if it really wants to do something interesting it should look for something new to offer as well, which no other game does.

 

What is that third thing? Hell if I know. They're the game innovators. Figuring that out is their job.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Uluain

[DorkTrooper]

I don't think I'd be playing this game if it was pure sandbox. Added sandbox elements would be fine, but I enjoy the focus on combat and story.

 

When I want sandbox, I turn off the computer and go outside.

 

To each their own.

[Aleryan]

I have seen many posts regarding this subject and the pros and cons of each but I would like to get a feel for what the players really want.

MMO developers seem to think that sandbox is now a niche area and theme park is the way to go.

Many sandbox MMOs are still going strong even though they have changed their subscription model in an effort to retain their existing players and entice new players to give their game a go.

Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, and, in my opinion, the daddy of them all, Eve Online is still going strong. I have returned to Eve twice over the years and recall the newbie chat channel and the opening channel after that is full of constant chatter which is what gives it its name Massive that it deserves.

And of course, take a look at the fourth coming Guild Wars 2. The devs have decided to change course from the famously heavily instanced original Guild Wars, although extremely popular, to a more open sandbox world, going completely against the grain of what the gaming masses are supposed to enjoy the most.

It is a matter of opinion but for me, when GW2 is released, that is where I will be going because I believe that heavy instancing takes the massively out of the game thus demeaning its goal.

Having said that, I still dont know what the majority of the MMO fraternity think and want.

So maybe we can find out from this post whether or not the devs took the right direction and so will keep their players for many years to come or will they leave en masse to return to the sandbox idea that the MMO genre originally embraced?

 

Good post. Im actually at the point where Im ready for some sandbox mmo action. Im getting pretty tired of the themepark design...this is probably the last themepark game Ill go for, and that being said, I still hold out hope they will incorporate some sandbox stuff, especially crafting side since SWG did it so well.

 

To that end, Ive been playing EvE lately and loving it. I love games with depth and sizeable learning curves, unfortunatley, game developers dont have the balls to make such mmos anymore because everyone wants easy, faceroll content...look how easy WoW is these days, theres a reason for that.

 

So yeah, sign me up for sandbox...you hear that, game developers?

[DarthSabreth]

im a little for both, i love SWTOR and esp the story and the RP value for the game, what i would like to see is some single player dailies, dont get me wrong the heroic dailies are great, i would just like a variety of both, i would also like some crafting dailies that give rewards to purchase some paterns. things like that... SWTOR is an awsume game!!!

[Aleryan]

While your statement is true, the fact is no major developer has made a sandbox mmo recently. The only popular Sandbox MMO is EvE and that dates back to 2003 or 2001 with no financial backing of a company like EA or Activision.

 

Honestly, I'd play EvE if it wasn't a pure space theme.

 

Whats wrong with a space theme? Works tremendously well for EvE...fantasy has been done to death, arent you bored of it by now??

[Azmordean]

I think it would be very easy to add sandbox elements to this game. Leave everything as is in the themepark - the class stories are excellent, and the leveling experience is very good - but add on a bunch of planets in the "far outer rim" for player content and a set of tools for players to use it.

 

Not so different from EVE with its "high-sec" and "0.0" space. High-sec was the core worlds - safe, mostly for leveling and learning. 0.0 was an open free for all. SWTOR could easily do the same thing - they've got the "high-sec" piece in place - they could just add in some sandbox planets. That's an advantage of sci-fi MMOs - it's easy to add zones - just plop in new planets. They don't have to have continuity with surrounding zones, after all!

[Aleryan]

Like most others that have posted here I believe the best course is to add both elements to a game. Them park elements to add story, and sandbox elements to keep the players interest. EVE Online is considered a sandbox game but it does include story just not completely in-game a lot of it is outside lore. Not every model will work for every game and therefore to future proof a game it is going to need a good balance of sandbox and them park playing.

This game being set in the SW universe has tons of lore and backstory already set in place...it could easily have done just as well as a sanbox and not a "on the rails" theme park ride. Hope BW adds some sandbox play to the space portion to shake things up a bit along the lines of what SWG did. That in my opinion would make this game perferct.

 

Yep, agree with this post. And a great place to add some sandbox to this game would be the crafting side...and SWG is a great blueprint!

[TKMaster]

Name one Sandbox mmorpg that has been released since 2005?

Actually i can only think of one that got released 2003 (Lineage 2)

 

And lineage 2 had over 3 million subs in it's prime.

 

But if a sandbox mmorpg hasn't been released since 2003 how can you say they all fail miserably?

 

Isnt the fact that no one even attempts them the answer to your question?

[sevev]

I have seen many posts regarding this subject and the pros and cons of each but I would like to get a feel for what the players really want.

MMO developers seem to think that sandbox is now a niche area and theme park is the way to go.

Many sandbox MMOs are still going strong even though they have changed their subscription model in an effort to retain their existing players and entice new players to give their game a go.

Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, and, in my opinion, the daddy of them all, Eve Online is still going strong. I have returned to Eve twice over the years and recall the newbie chat channel and the opening channel after that is full of constant chatter which is what gives it its name Massive that it deserves.

And of course, take a look at the fourth coming Guild Wars 2. The devs have decided to change course from the famously heavily instanced original Guild Wars, although extremely popular, to a more open sandbox world, going completely against the grain of what the gaming masses are supposed to enjoy the most.

It is a matter of opinion but for me, when GW2 is released, that is where I will be going because I believe that heavy instancing takes the massively out of the game thus demeaning its goal.

Having said that, I still dont know what the majority of the MMO fraternity think and want.

So maybe we can find out from this post whether or not the devs took the right direction and so will keep their players for many years to come or will they leave en masse to return to the sandbox idea that the MMO genre originally embraced?

 

Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft are not sandbox MMOs.

 

I think you may be mistakenly using the definition of "sandbox" for the environment maps/zones used in those games. I played all 3 of those game (WOW the longest) and each game uses instancing/zoning to a certain degree.

 

 

To answer your question on "themepark" versus "sandbox"; you only need to look at the subscription numbers from WOW heyday. Blizzzard reached 11 million subscribers.

 

That is 11 million paying subscription that made the choice to play the themepark MMO over, say, EVE online.

 

Eve online has never broken 1 million subscribers.

 

At its core, MMO developers are software developers.

 

Software developers develop software that they can turn around and sell (turbo tax, MS Office, Quicken, etc) .

 

At the end of the day these software developers will always focus their development goals on being as profitable as they possibly can.

 

 

nothing else matter.

[gurugeorge]

Isnt the fact that no one even attempts them the answer to your question?

 

People attempt them (e.g. Darkfall, Mortal Online, Xsyon), with varying degrees of success (Darkfall seems to be doing ok, MO had severe problems last time I checked, Xsyon failed to live up to expectations last time I checked).

 

What doesn't seem to happen is investment from big money.

 

Big money goes the populist route, the line of least resistance, the lowest common denominator; it aims for profit, but it always ensures that it at lesat gets its investment back, so it will only take a risk up to a point.

 

But you can make an MMO on a (relative) shoestring, as the developers of the above games (and others like Perpetuum, etc., have shown - and even the great EVE, when it started CCP weren't exactly rich), so they do get made.

[Goretzu]

I don't think we as gamers have seen a "superb" modern sandbox game as of yet. Eve has many great elements, but so many aspects of the game are too slow paced and boring. And Eve PvE is lame. I'm all for a more open world, and less linearity. But I also want great content that I can easily access and complete in short play sessions. And there has to be a good mix of both grouped and solo content, as well as PvP and PvE content.

 

 

Yeah, something like that Archeage looks interesting, but so far we've not seen it.

 

The strange thing is something with SWTORs story, yet with freedom as well...... that could have been it.

[Arkerus]

I think it would be very easy to add sandbox elements to this game. Leave everything as is in the themepark - the class stories are excellent, and the leveling experience is very good - but add on a bunch of planets in the "far outer rim" for player content and a set of tools for players to use it.

 

Not so different from EVE with its "high-sec" and "0.0" space. High-sec was the core worlds - safe, mostly for leveling and learning. 0.0 was an open free for all. SWTOR could easily do the same thing - they've got the "high-sec" piece in place - they could just add in some sandbox planets. That's an advantage of sci-fi MMOs - it's easy to add zones - just plop in new planets. They don't have to have continuity with surrounding zones, after all!

 

Even though I wouldn't use it they could easily add a sandbox "planet".

 

That would be the best solution so satisfy the 200,000 or so of the playerbase that want to see something like SWG.

 

But don't bet on it.

[TKMaster]

Even though I wouldn't use it they could easily add a sandbox "planet".

 

That would be the best solution so satisfy the 200,000 or so of the playerbase that want to see something like SWG.

But don't bet on it.

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

 

You added 2 too many zeros.