The reason I love being able to leave WZs with no penalty

[Baramosx]

I will enjoy the last 2 months of not being forced to waste my time losing because my team is full of low levels and bads.

 

You don't like when your team doesn't use teamwork so you will be just as bad and leave.

 

You will screw over the person who takes your spot and waste their time because you and your team couldn't get it done and you are worried about wasting your own time losing.

 

You are a hypocrite.

[Greyfeld]

Thats right. It is only real pvp if only one side is having fun.

 

I'm not one of those people who seem to see things in only black or white. For example, instead of the players having to be farmed, or work around a broken system, a third option would be for the developers to actually fix the :wea_03:ing system.

 

Encouraging people to work around a broken game instead of demanding fixes encourages the developers to ignore the problems altogether.

[Sparcrypt]

I don't care if someone leave BEFORE THE GAME STARTS, at least while you can't pick your WZ. I've left huttball a few times because I got it 8-9 times in a row and I was just sick of it, wanted something new.

 

It's the people who leave because they're not being carried. I understand - to a point- the people who leave the steamrolls with no hope. But I see people leave huttball 2 seconds after the other team scores, even if we fought them every step of the way and it took them 10 minutes to GET that score. Man up you gosh darn wuss 'Oh... I might not win easily? WELL I'M NOT PLAYING THEN!'

 

The chain leaving that often results from people dropping WZs effectively ensures a loss - while people are loading, seeing a losing game in progress and then leavnig themselves, the team is now a person down. Then more people leave and so on.

[dlouismartin]

Greyfeld has very accurate debate logic, and it is hard to really challenge his position. I accept his point of view on not really owing the community anything, because impacting strangers' fun rather than his own is totally his perogative.

 

Ironically, the pvp aspect of SWTOR exists because of the people who choose to play, and by being - seemingly - apathetic to how others feel, you are impacting the enjoyment of the very people who create the pvp community that you play with.

 

I don't know if Bioware instituting a penalty from on high is the best solution. Rater, the community should police itself. Perhaps a stickied "wall of shame" where people can post names and screens of people who afk, or some way to make other players aware of the alleged behavior of certain players.

 

Borrow fom the sports and fight game genres; institute a disconnect percentage and create a vote system, or maybe a queue filter system for matchmaking. For example: I enter queue and institute a filter that says you won't join a group where 2+ players dq% is higher tan X.

 

Just stuff like that. There are creative solutions you can use to allow the pvp community to be heard. It would also provide legitimate metrics to track what people were filtering.

 

Anyway--- just some brainstorms.

[genericcc]

I don't really see the point putting in a debuff. I mean it's a game, which people are paying for. If they leave the warzone it's cause they're not having fun & if you try to force them to stay with a penalty they will probably just log off/afk/get bored/ultimately quit.

[Greyfeld]

Greyfeld has very accurate debate logic, and it is hard to really challenge his position. I accept his point of view on not really owing the community anything, because impacting strangers' fun rather than his own is totally his perogative.

 

I've always been told I should have been a lawyer

 

Ironically, the pvp aspect of SWTOR exists because of the people who choose to play, and by being - seemingly - apathetic to how others feel, you are impacting the enjoyment of the very people who create the pvp community that you play with.

 

I don't know if Bioware instituting a penalty from on high is the best solution. Rater, the community should police itself. Perhaps a stickied "wall of shame" where people can post names and screens of people who afk, or some way to make other players aware of the alleged behavior of certain players.

 

Borrow fom the sports and fight game genres; institute a disconnect percentage and create a vote system, or maybe a queue filter system for matchmaking. For example: I enter queue and institute a filter that says you won't join a group where 2+ players dq% is higher tan X.

 

Just stuff like that. There are creative solutions you can use to allow the pvp community to be heard. It would also provide legitimate metrics to track what people were filtering.

 

Anyway--- just some brainstorms.

 

The real problem is that the pvp system doesn't foster community to begin with. The only incentive to pvp is to attain gear and complete dailies (which by their very nature are also part of the gear grind). Players are going to take the path of least resistance, which often involves leaving losing games to quickly queue for another match.

 

It doesn't help that medals and the end-game scoreboard completely ignores actual game objectives and only rewards farming kills, which encourages players to stay in that same "death match" mindset instead of actually learning how to play.

 

Personally, I'd like to see instanced pvp die a long, slow death and never show its ugly face in the MMO genre again. But it's a lot easier and cost-effective to code than actually creating fun world pvp.

[finetop]

I basically see no reason to change things as long as it will put you in a match that is clearly over but has 5 minutes left.

[lilBastahd]

I like to quit WZ at the very end whether I'm winning or losing because I'm level 40 and already over leveled for my quests. I wish I could just not accept XP from WZs

[GRINnBARRETT]

5) I zone into in progress warzones/get randomly DCd all the time. I don't need a 15 minute wait on top of that.

 

This for me.

[redheadedtim]

This for me.

 

You folks realize they could tie the debuff to the manual leave option and not affect disconnects/crashes right? Then the leavers would yank their ethernet cable, but it would at least be something. WoW has a leaver debuff and their pvp does fine (from what I hear). It can be done in a manner that doesn't punish bad tech luck.

[Links_Knight]

In this thread we have a lot of terrible players who believe they can dictate how they want the game regardless of what everyone else wants.

[Fraeg]

I, nor the OP, have to justify anything. My $15 is worth just as much as yours, and I get to say how I spend my game time. If I'm not having fun doing something, then I won't do it.

 

A very hard argument to beat.

 

At the end of the day every one of us is paying money to play this game, and unless you are paying someones monthly fee, you really have no grounds for telling them how to play this game.

[Ekemeister]

9) I don't want to fight the same Battlemaster Premade again tonight.

10) Getting Farmed at the last Objective/Cap is not my definition of fun.

11) I don't want to fight a 4-Sorc Hybrid Healer Premade...ever again.

 

/thread win.

I walked into the exact same JK, 2 or 3 Commando, 2 or 3 smuggler, and the rest healer hybrid sage. All battlemasters. Ok, so it happened in alderaan I can understand that. I topped the kill charts, used taunts, got their ship down to half health. Played the warzone and got farmed.

 

Then I re-queued, Same exact team; now we're playing huttball. To make matters worse; they know I bring the squishies, turn bad 1v1s into favorable 2v1s, and actually harass the ball carrier. So now I'm getting farmed by the two scoundrels while sages pelt me with rocks and heal their buddies. Meanwhile, the empire team notices that at least 3 of their 8 people are focusing me. They do nothing. No harrassment. No buffs. No heals. When I'm in graveyard, four other guys pop in not knowing why. (facepalm).

 

If Bioware implements a leaver penalty without implementing any sort of matchmaking mechanic, my sub is getting deleted. You can quote me on this too.

 

edit: I've played WoW. I don't recall getting farmed by premade Arena gear teams night after night. That and Resilience wasn't gamebreaking for pvp. You could still kill with raid set tier gear. I did a guild run with Hordecore in Warsong Gulch. Our lead beat my kill score using tier 6 gear while I was wearing fully jeweled s2. I had dps meter and our dps was literally equal when raiding. SWTOR's expertise is a joke. It gives bad players so much of an edge, they think they have skill. The only redeeming quality is kiting and killing champs as Madness sin.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Ekemeister

[GRINnBARRETT]

You folks realize they could tie the debuff to the manual leave option and not affect disconnects/crashes right? Then the leavers would yank their ethernet cable, but it would at least be something. WoW has a leaver debuff and their pvp does fine (from what I hear). It can be done in a manner that doesn't punish bad tech luck.

 

It's been so long since I've played wow I don't know how it worked. I don't recall DCing much if at all back then. In Rift if you disconnect & reconnect, you're still in the WZ/BG. I wish it were like that in SWTOR. Currently I don't think you can re-enter a WZ you've DC'd from.

[Nuvem]

i get into bad groups all the time, but i don't just quit. i stick it out and suck it up. you win as a team or you lose as a team.

 

i'd rather try and educate a bad team in ops chat so that maybe next time they will be better.

 

 

 

That is it!

There are Newbies and Noobs. Most of the people can and will learn.

 

But when you put yourself (so weird declare yourself good, but anyway) in a pillar and refuse to give orientation to the players, when you know what to do, and just leave because you are so good to teach, IMO is not being a super good player. Sorry. Good players play fair and friendly. You learn but you do not teach? Or give help on the chat? I dunno.

 

(sorry for my english, not my native language)

Edited February 16, 2012 by Nuvem

[redheadedtim]

You don't automatically re-enter it (I agree I wish you would, you do in wow from what I hear), but like I said, find the subroutine called when someone manually leaves a warzone, add the debuff code there. Leave the "detect that someone disconnected and remove them from WZ" code alone. Bam! No debuff for folks with actual, non-player based issues.

[HelinCarnate]

It is much easier to just give the people demanding that others be punnished what they want than it is to fix the actual problem.

 

List of things that would fix the cause of the problem.

 

Get decent matchmaking and either merge servers or allow cross server pvp warzones and most of the deserter issues will go away. All the best matchmaking tools in the world will do you no good if you only have the same small group of people to put against each other.

 

Premade vs premade. If your team is all from the solo queue, then the other team should be as well.

 

Prevent the same matchups back to back unless the score was very close or decided by a tiebreaker.

 

If the game was decided by a tie breaker, please do what you can to requeue the same people against each other.

 

Prevent low level valor vs high level valor matchups.

 

Instead of punnishing those that leave, reward those that stick it out. Give them the xp, valor and commendations that the deserter would have recived. Half to the person that comes in to replace them and the other half divided up to the rest of the group.

 

Do not start games when one side is outnumbered, even if it falls within the 2 person difference. 6 vs 8 is still a slaughter, it just takes a little longer.

 

 

That stuff takes actual work. Punnishing the deserters will do very little to solve the acutal cause of the deserters, but it will make a group of people that cry on the forums happier, and really that is what is important.

Edited February 16, 2012 by HelinCarnate

[Vaipyr]

So.... because it fuels your elitism and ego? Good to know.

[Srqt]

I, nor the OP, have to justify anything. My $15 is worth just as much as yours, and I get to say how I spend my game time. If I'm not having fun doing something, then I won't do it.

 

But when the way you want to spend yours is going to negatively impact the other 7 people on your team and the person who is put in to replace you in the warzone those $120 > your $15.

 

Noone likes losing but when you play a competitive game (which is what a WZ is) someone has to lose. The problem is people are just plain bad sports and want to rage quit and then justify it by pointing the finger at everyone else.

 

The only people I will feel bad for with this are those who disconnect due to technical difficulties. Hopefully BW thinks of a way to stop them from getting the debuff if it is ever put into place.

[justregularjoe]

A lot of responses...clearly a hot topic. I didn't mean to start any flame wars or anything I just had a bad match and it made me think about why it is so great I can leave. wanted to respond to a few things though:

 

First off, hats off to Greyfield since he 100% understands how I feel

 

 

You don't like when your team doesn't use teamwork so you will be just as bad and leave.

 

You will screw over the person who takes your spot and waste their time because you and your team couldn't get it done and you are worried about wasting your own time losing.

 

You are a hypocrite.

 

Hmm, you say I am a hypocrite because I am worried wasting my own time losing, so leave a WZ and the person coming in now is in that position. Interesting statement, except for one thing: you don't know what that person's PvP goals are. You don't know what is fun to them. You don't know if it is their first game, and they are still in awe, or if they plan to be AFK in the corner. You don't know - and neither do I. What I do know is that I play to be competitive and have fun. For me, fun is a close, competitive game - it does NOT have to be a win. It is only ignorance that assumes someone will leave "just because the team is losing" . There are dozens of reasons why someone might leave a WZ.

 

 

 

I've always been told I should have been a lawyer

 

 

 

The real problem is that the pvp system doesn't foster community to begin with. The only incentive to pvp is to attain gear and complete dailies (which by their very nature are also part of the gear grind). Players are going to take the path of least resistance, which often involves leaving losing games to quickly queue for another match.

 

It doesn't help that medals and the end-game scoreboard completely ignores actual game objectives and only rewards farming kills, which encourages players to stay in that same "death match" mindset instead of actually learning how to play.

.

 

 

This, This , and THIS !

 

Look at medals: they award individual performance, not team performance. The medal system, itself, encourages apathy toward other players and focus on individual effort. There are no medals for successfully capping a Voidstar door, or stealing a Turret away from the enemy in Civil War. There are no medals (for the team) to score a ball in Huttball. Are there objective points ? Sure, but you can't expect everyone on the team to sit in their endzone the entire game. THAT IS NOT FUN. When I play my healer sorc (who is on the shelf right now) I can EASILY get 10 medals a game. Do the math 10 medals = 500 valor and 50 more commendations. Now, say I run the ball the whole game and such, I might only get 6 medals, and so my reward is significantly diminished to do the objective , HOWEVER -- this is not the point. I am making a general statement about the system, and why it fails. I play for fun, not for digital rewards.

 

Imagine if they removed all personal medals, and made objectives (capping doors, balls, etc) the only source of extra rewards...imagine the difference in the teamwork.

 

 

 

 

 

/thread win.

I walked into the exact same JK, 2 or 3 Commando, 2 or 3 smuggler, and the rest healer hybrid sage. All battlemasters. Ok, so it happened in alderaan I can understand that. I topped the kill charts, used taunts, got their ship down to half health. Played the warzone and got farmed.

 

Then I re-queued, Same exact team; now we're playing huttball. To make matters worse; they know I bring the squishies, turn bad 1v1s into favorable 2v1s, and actually harass the ball carrier. So now I'm getting farmed by the two scoundrels while sages pelt me with rocks and heal their buddies. Meanwhile, the empire team notices that at least 3 of their 8 people are focusing me. They do nothing. No harrassment. No buffs. No heals. When I'm in graveyard, four other guys pop in not knowing why. (facepalm).

 

If Bioware implements a leaver penalty without implementing any sort of matchmaking mechanic, my sub is getting deleted. You can quote me on this too.

 

edit: I've played WoW. I don't recall getting farmed by premade Arena gear teams night after night. That and Resilience wasn't gamebreaking for pvp. You could still kill with raid set tier gear. I did a guild run with Hordecore in Warsong Gulch. Our lead beat my kill score using tier 6 gear while I was wearing fully jeweled s2. I had dps meter and our dps was literally equal when raiding. SWTOR's expertise is a joke. It gives bad players so much of an edge, they think they have skill. The only redeeming quality is kiting and killing champs as Madness sin.

 

 

 

 

All of this. When I stay in a WZ where I feel that the rest of the team is under-performing to what I would consider and average player skill level (I'm not a Pro, so don't come back to me with some elitist bs) , I find that as the match progresses, I become the focus target. I often have the entire team targeting me as soon as I pop my face out on my toons (other than Healer sorc even), and for the most part ignoring the people fighting in the field or chasing people into the pit.

 

On top of that, pre-mades are a nightmare ! If I was a game developer, I would NEVER let a fully geared pre-made go against a group of fresh 50s - a PUG at that. Pre-mades should be facing pre-mades, always, no exception. Oh you have a long Que time ? Cool, disband and que solo and it will not be a problem. But you pay 15$ a month too ? Cool, then you will just have to wait until an even match comes along.

 

As far as comparisons to WoW, it is inevitable. I will just say that my mage had full T6 as well and I completely crushed full geared PvP people, but not because of gear - because I had been playing my mage for ~5 years. In this game, skill is meaningless versus PvP gear. That is why the low level brackets are so much fun ! It is 100% skill based, where gear is not an issue.

 

I also wanted to respond to someone who pointed out that if there is a leaver penalty, there will be an influx of AFKers - This is 100% accurate, and it is easy to see why. Generally speaking, PvP is done for either the rewards, or for the fun. Even if we split the demographic 50/50 (which is generous, mind you), you would essentially have half the people queuing only there for the reward...So if that person joins a match, and sees he has a terrible team, why not put your video overlay on and watch a South Park while you afk until its over. Still get reward, with Zero pain.

 

However, for me, I would still quit and take the penalty. Why ? Because my fun is in the competition. If there IS NOT competition (i.e. our team is against a full pre-made BM, full of fresh 50s, bads, or in low level PvP bads not doing objective) I am not having fun so I will leave and log on an alt or something.

 

The leaver penalty does NOT solve the issues, it is merely a workaround. Just as the US keeps raising the debt ceiling instead of just making a balanced budget, BW wants to penalize people for being upset with the system, instead of just fixing the system.

 

sorry for the long post

Edited February 16, 2012 by justregularjoe

[Mephane]

find the subroutine called when someone manually leaves a warzone, add the debuff code there. Leave the "detect that someone disconnected and remove them from WZ" code alone. Bam! No debuff for folks with actual, non-player based issues.

 

Your suggestion is not technically feasible because in order to leave without debuff you could just briefly unplug your network cable to simulate a disconnect, and there is no technical way to detect this situation.

[rawfox]

There are a lot of them, but i'll highlight my main points.

 

1) One good player can turn the tide of battle, but not if the other team has more than one good player. If I join a WZ where no one is passing ball, fighting on turrets/doors, I would rather leave and wait for new group

 

2)Some teams are just fail. I played a Civil War earlier where a sorc tried to cap a Turret with me, instead of knocking back/stunning the group running to us. Then later, I solo capped a turret and got zero backup while 3 people fought out in front of the turret nowhere near it. I don't mind losing, I just don't want to play with bads

 

3) When I join a WZ and we have 3 level 10s in greens, you know its bad news. Now don't be hasty and say "but level 10s...etc". I started Queing at level 10 too - difference Is I already know how to guard turrets/doors pass the ball etc. People can learn by losing, I don't want to lose with you while you learn though.

 

4) I don't care about medals/valor/commendations/stats. I care about competitive play and having teammates that can back me up and be accountable. If i find none of those in my current WZ, I will leave and come back later in hopes of a better group.

 

 

I am disappointed they are putting a penalty because It is not fun being stuck with bads over and over, but of course I see the logic behind it. I will enjoy the last 2 months of not being forced to waste my time losing because my team is full of low levels and bads.

 

you talking a lot of crap, i lol'd

[HelinCarnate]

But when the way you want to spend yours is going to negatively impact the other 7 people on your team and the person who is put in to replace you in the warzone those $120 > your $15.

 

Noone likes losing but when you play a competitive game (which is what a WZ is) someone has to lose. The problem is people are just plain bad sports and want to rage quit and then justify it by pointing the finger at everyone else.

 

The only people I will feel bad for with this are those who disconnect due to technical difficulties. Hopefully BW thinks of a way to stop them from getting the debuff if it is ever put into place.

 

Without the deserter debuff. Person leaves. Someone comes and replaces them. Perhaps they will actually be usefull and help get a win, perhaps not but they are willing to try. That or the new person sees the loss and you get a chain of people coming in and out.

 

With the debuff. Person stays and gives up and does just enough to not get the afk boot.

 

Which one will have a greater negative impact?

[RTCBrad]

I, nor the OP, have to justify anything. My $15 is worth just as much as yours, and I get to say how I spend my game time. If I'm not having fun doing something, then I won't do it.

 

Lol, I support the penalty 110%

 

RQers like this guy need to L2P. Rather than leaving and trying to find a warzone with good players so you can have a free ride, why don't you try and be the good player that makes the difference and gets the win.

 

The reason is you're just as bad as the "low level bads" that you spend all your time complaining about.

Edited February 16, 2012 by RTCBrad

[justregularjoe]

But when the way you want to spend yours is going to negatively impact the other 7 people on your team and the person who is put in to replace you in the warzone those $120 > your $15.

 

Noone likes losing but when you play a competitive game (which is what a WZ is) someone has to lose.

 

First off...its not rage-quitting. I don't let it get to the point of rage-quitting. I, without getting all angry, can see that we have 4 marauders in the wrong spec, a sorc trying to heal himself in the corner, and terrible op within the first few moments of the game. You can too, and so can ANY player who does a decent amount of PvP. And so I say, is this game going to be fun for me, getting farmed and trying to carry 5 people ? No, it isn't.

 

The problem with your argument is that every PvP game is like that. Think about it, CoD, MW3, BF3, WoW, Rift - even RTS games like SC2/RoN, etc. There are always people that are negatively impacted by others, and other times where those "others" are the ones negatively impacted.

 

You talk about losing - this thread was NEVER about losing - it was about having a chance at winning. If my team is bad, I do NOT want to spend 15 minutes asking people to pass the ball, call out incs, or stay on the doors. that is NOT fun for me. So I leave.

 

I played a game earlier today where everyone was playing well from the get-go, and then we got unlucky and a sorc managed to solo run through 2 fire traps to score a ball. We all saw it, and there was nothing we could do. So we rallied, and came back and won 3-1. It was a close, competitive, hard fought game. This thread was never about losing...go re-read the op.