The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[YMIHere]

Also for it to explode the sage/sorc shield has to be destroyed. That means YOU CC YOURSELF in that moment, because you just nuked the sage/sorc and his/her shield was destroyed BY YOU.

 

This can actually be used by the sorc by right-clicking their bubble off. I think it's a bug (and have reported it), but the wording is pretty vague. If this is intended behavior than I don't support it and would like to see it change. Just pointing it out as right-clicking the bubble off is generally not something a sorc would do (or know about just by playing). =)

[Erulinda]

Oke.... this might have been the solution in another game (no, not "that" one) but here goes :

 

In Dark Age of Camelot there were no cooldowns on abilities... they could either be spammed or where situational (as in : can be used after blocking an attack.)

 

This made for some very wierd balance issues as say a Smite Cleric, could insta-AE Stun say 20 people for 8 seconds... nuke one down... re-AE stun the rest and basically kill the lot of em without anyone being able to do anything about it... These were know as Dive Bomber Clerics... Run in, insta AE-stun, and let the party begin...

 

Oke, they could have (and later on "did" for different reasons : no clerics specced as healers) nerfed the Smite spec (just one example of the out of whack CC'ing in that game)... but first of all they implemented

 

Stun Immunity

 

Once a Stun wore off, you were unstunnable for 6 seconds (I think, way to long ago to remember at my age, could have been 8 )

 

Later on they implemented a Purge against CC as a Realm Ability, which also made it so you couldn't be re-CC'd for 8 seconds...

 

Just implementing these two little things changed the whole dynamics of PVP combat for the better...

 

I think it would too in SWTOR...

 

We all have a de-CC button in this here game, but it's kinda useless seeing as the second you press it you just get re-CC'd by the same guy or someone else.

 

If they do implement a form of CC-immunity they should however make sure some warning like : "Player can not be stunned/CC'd" pops up and it does "not" put the player casting it's ability go on cooldown...

 

There... my 3 credits worth to make the whole CC'ing in PVP a bit more livable

Edited February 18, 2012 by Erulinda

[YMIHere]

Sorcs/Assassins have 10% base defence rather then 5% wich I belive is the amount all other classes have. So if you did not already take this into account, you should add 5% to Sorcs mitigation in the part of your post where you compare their mitigation with the medium and heavy armour classes.

 

/Solon

 

Verified on naked Sorcerer, Mercenary, and Scoundrel.

[YMIHere]

This thread is clearly about the 20/21 build, that I personally use on my sorc.

 

While I agree and that seemed to be the intention of the OP, the moderators don't appear to. They are to be closing other Sorcerer nerf threads and redirecting them here, just wanted to point this out as I had previously been telling others the same thing.

 

Looks like you got a promotion Tumri. Way to go on leading the charge, guess I'll have to hold you personally responsible if they nerf my precious Sorcerer! =P

[Hiro]

funny how everyone complains about sorcerers when they are actually by far the most squishy class in the game. there is no other class with less defensive abilities and no other class thats faster to kill.

 

any bh/trooper who knows what hes doing just laughs about sorcerer/sages.

 

any melee classes obvisously has a hard time in a 1v1 situation if the sorc/sage can fully focus on that single player and got all CDs up. however in most scenarios thats not the fact.

the sorc will shine in mass battles where the AOE hits multiple targets, still the single target burst is NOTHING compared to other classes.

 

yes, the sorc is a strong class and has the upper hand in certain situations. however there are soooo many ways to counter it and there are soo many weaknesses as well.

 

imo that class is just fine where it is. it seems powerfull to ppl who dont know what to do and it is very well balanced in fights against skilled players with the right counter options.

 

no class should be above all other classes. the sorcerer certainly is not.

 

the most whining is cause of the high CC a sorcerer seems to have with the exploding shield and the immobilize after the knockback. im sure most sorcerer would love to miss one of those in exchange for a defensive CD that almost any other classes has (like 20% dmg reduction for x seconds).

 

the class is just fine. devs should actually focus on the more gamebreaking pvp issues that are out there.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Hiro

[YMIHere]

For one, resolve is a joke, people die way too fast for it to really matter.

 

Maybe if you're attacking a target that isn't on you, or an Operative/Scoundrel (no gap closer = more time for resolve to drain and/or more damage on target at range).

 

and with a 20/21 build you gain an extra 10 seconds off force speed, a 3 second mezz on a 20 seconds cooldown on yourself, or less if you're using it on everyone around you, and you can get either barrage or bindings, giving you either a whole lot more burst or a whole lot more control that doesn't effect resolve.

 

All you lose from this is 30% crit multiplier on dots & field, 15% damage on affliction, and 2 seconds on crushing darkness.

 

With 20/21 you're so much more helpful to your team it's ridiculous. It makes scoring in huttball incredibly easy, it makes kiting brainless, and you've got even more burst than you do in 13/28 assuming you took bindings.

 

13/28 is a pve build, and for warzone heroes that just go for top dps.

 

13/28 includes Lightning Barrage, 20/21 is less burst and less damage.

 

 

Secondly, if you choose to stick your head in the sand despite all the numbers we've posted how do you expect anyone to take you seriously? If we don't need to worry about this game's mechanics and we can argue based on fictitious numbers then sorcerers crit for 20,000 damage and need nerfed asap.

 

And the calculations do take other defensive cooldowns into account. It takes more damage to kill a double bubbled sorcerer than it does to kill a dps powertech using his bubble.

 

Again, the bubble can be placed on others and you don't always get a second bubble. You're also forgetting about Kolto Overload, the Powertechs second defensive cooldown.

[YMIHere]

Dumb idea because that would be an enormous buff to their medal gains. No class in the game can get DPS+Healing+Protection medals. A lot of them can only get DPS medals. If you made bubbles count as protection they could just get the healing medals through hardcast healing and then spam bubble a few times for protection medals. I know it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand but I just thought I'd mention how dumb this change would be. Sorcerers would be getting 15 medals a game.

 

While I agree about us not getting protection because of the medals, I'd like to add that I got healing points on my rank 14 Juggernaut the other day without using any items that I know of (maybe I miskey'd a medpac, but I thought those didn't count towards medals anymore). The general consensus from general chat was that it was the recharge ability that every class gets. Not sure if it even matters as I don't know if it's even possible to get one medal with that. I would like to know if there's a skill that heals me that I'm not reading right though. =)

[justcallmetarzan]

I'm going to reiterate what I posted in the first thread with some more specific updates on what people have said in both threads... My original post on this can be found here at the bottom of the page.

 

Assumptions I'm using for math:

1. Willpower: 1737
   
2. Force Power + Power: 1442
   
3. Crit/Surge/Alacrity: 410/153/346 (values from the spreadsheet BiS.)
   
4. DPS numbers are an "ideal" fight
   
5. Rotations are also "ideal"
   

 

A quick note too about the specs I'm using (I'm not going to go into full TK because I know absolutely nothing about TK past the 4th tier):

 

First - a standard 3/7/31 build for balance dps.

 

Second - a standard 0/13/28 build for hybrid dps.

 

Third - "full cc" build (the dreaded 0/20/21).

 

Fourth - a dps/cc build (0/19/22).

 

And last, a Tidal Force dps build (0/19/22).

 

Up front - here are the updated dps values for these builds:

 

3/7/31 - 1275 dps

0/13/28 - 1326 (1268 for above build. 1326 build is this one AFAIK.)

0/20/21 (cc) - 1063

0/19/22 (dps) - 1216

0/19/22 (tidal force)- 1216

 

(Note - a full TK build reports as 1285 dps.)

 

I should also note to maximize for the 1326 build, you must be getting a full 18 second Weakened Mind, as well as forgo the instant force lift and 20% buff to your bubble. More on that later.

 

The OP alleges this list of utilities (#4 missing in original):

 

1. 4 second 30yrd range stun with a 60s CD. [Electrocute]

2. A 30 yard range 6s 50% slow with a 12 second cooldown. [Force Slow]

3. A slow build into their main filler attack. [Force Lightning]

5. A 20(30 untalented) second cooldown 150% speed boost that is the best of it's kind. [Force Sprint]

6. A 20 second CD(shortest in the game except for BH knockback with a set bonus) knockback. [Overload]

7. A 5 second root attached to the above knockback.

8. A bubble that provides between 3.5-4.5k absorption. Since average health pools are on average about 16k this can be looked at as an instant 20%-30%+ health gain on a 20 second cooldown. They have light armor but this skill makes them far tankier than most DPS specced players in any situation where the players aren't receiving external heals for extended periods of time and even then it's pretty much outright better than heavy armor. This bubble is not overpowered as it's essentially a counterbalance to their light armor. What makes it over powered is the talented CC that comes with it(More on that below). [static Barrier]

9. The above bubble has a 3 second AoE immobilize attached to it. The bubble can be Pre-Cast and kept up 100% of the time as a preventive CC that activates when you need it(when your bubble breaks). This can also be pre-cast and Static Barrier can be clicked off manually for a 3 second on-demand AoE immobilize and then the Sorcerer may immediately recast it if timed well.

10. A 60s CD single target immobilize(whirlwind/force lift). [Whirlwind]

11. A 2s duration stun if the above immobilize is broken by damage.

12. A 12 second CD 30 yard range interrupt. [Jolt]

-----------------------------------

13. A 30 yard friendly pull which provides an incredible amount of potential for tactical PvP plays and can save allies from the most dire of situations. [Extrication]

14. Self-Healing(Dark Infusion/Dark Heal while target(s) CC'd or not in LoS).

15. An AoE damage ability with no target cap and a 30% AoE slow to all enemies in area. [Force Storm]

16. A 30 yard range 4.5 second cooldown Cleanse ability that renders many DoTs and debuffs useless. [Purge]

 

**** I'm going to add the 2 sec root from Sever Force.

 

Not all of these abilities are available at once. Also, I think we can dispense with #14 because the capacity for self-healing is shared among 3/8 classes in the game (sage, commando, scoundrel), not to mention Guarded By The Force, which is essentially a self-heal given their dots' healing.

 

More notes on bubble. The values above are incorrect. The general thought at the moment is that trauma and expertise do not affect bubble value. The long and short of this is that expertise could not affect the value if trauma also did not (because expertise healing is trauma-ignore, not more throughput). This would make bubble values too low for anyone but BiS geared to get the 2.5k heal medal for a bubble.

 

Current estimates of bubble values are between about 3.3 and 3.7k. The values from the BiS assumptions in the spreadsheet linked above yield a 3310 bubble. Popping a 380 power trinket with those would give you a 3564 bubble.

 

Now, the meat and potatoes...

 

First, it's of critical importance to note that no Sage build can take advantage of all of the above utilities. In fact, without severely gimping one's dps, no Sage build can take advantage of most of them.

 

Second, the two most-complained about talents (the aoe mez and aoe root) are not that useful. The aoe mez is good for one thing - saving the Sage's butt. It does that pretty well, but in doing so, harms the rest of the team because it builds lots of resolve. The aoe root is pretty good in some circumstances, but because it is tied to a knockback, it will not work on targets with full resolve.

 

Third, many of the utilities mentioned don't apply to all classes. Roots and knockbacks are useless against ranged classes who can stand still and nuke you and who never come into knockback range. Almost without exclusion, the Sage's utility talents *being complained about here* are useful against melee - the Sage's natural sworn enemy.

 

Fourth, the OP ignores the balancing game that one must take to have access to all this utility, but still put out decent damage. This point is where I focus most attention.

 

Looking above, you can see the dps values for the different specs. Note that the two cc-heavy specs fall well short of full dps specs (by 20% and 8.3% respectively). Considering the immense loss of the pure cc spec, I'm not really sure there is much point in talking about it - it's a cc machine, nothing else.

 

That said, the fact that a 0/19/22 dps spec retains the cc ability merits consideration.

 

I believe the points I made above concerning the type of target on which the gained cc is useful stand. Sages need tools to escape melee, plain and simple. A good marauder or operative is a real pain in the rear to escape from alive. Personally, I find marauders to be more of a pain than operatives.

 

That said, taking the two aoe cc talents from the TK tree away from Sages probably won't hurt them much. But it probably won't help the enemy teams much either. The root from knockback is useful, yes. The aoe mez is useful to the Sage, but harms the team overall.

 

 

The question remains then, whether hybrid specs really are that overpowered. The answer, I believe, is - not really. Were they in fact vastly overpowered, I would expect to see a Sage doing 1.5-2x the damage of other classes, and this just is not the case. I will admit that the skill:damage ratio on a sage has a much lower curve than other classes, but after a certain point, skilled players of other classes are on par.

 

On a related note - the discrepancy in DPS seems to widen with gear, so for the majority of players, a hybrid spec is not going to pull as far ahead in pure dps numbers.

 

Also, I'd like to briefly dispel the notion that Sages "mash one button" and faceroll. Whoever started this idea is a complete moron. In a 15-sec rotation, a hybrid Sage will use 6 or 7 different abilities depending on procs. For a full Balance Sage, it's 7. Sages do not stand there and mash TK Throw - doing so is a HUGE dps loss.

 

Last but certainly not least - some info about my Sage:

 

I currently use a 0/13/28 build, and I enjoy the playstyle very much, especially when Imps are dumb and gather in groups for me. That said, I play the more survivable version of the 13/28 build, picking up the self-heal, instant force lift, and bubble buff and taking the lower dps. I'm seriously considering switching to a full Balance build, if for no other reason than to show the nubs out there that hybrids are not really doing crazy damage like everyone claims.

 

Sorry for the wall of text.

 

TL;DR : No dps sage worth their salt would ever be able to access all of the available cc talents. Many of them don't actually apply to non-melee classes. And the dps difference is not that big for hybrid/full-31.

[GrandMike]

snip

 

You will have to also say that this DPS is in 90%+ stationary form. When running/kiting nubers go down to laughable values, basically 1 dot+project and TT now and then+15s CD AoE.

 

You will also have to say that there is no burst on sorc/sage.

 

Will think of more, but if you include those 2 ill just link this post to all terribads QQing about sorc/sage

Edited February 18, 2012 by GrandMike

[Tumri]

Looks like you got a promotion Tumri. Way to go on leading the charge, guess I'll have to hold you personally responsible if they nerf my precious Sorcerer! =P

 

Wow I had no idea they were doing this. Edited the OP a bit to accommodate other discussions being redirected.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

lol, It looks like someone got owned and decided to complain about it. Also thank you for posting that guide. I re-spec my talent points to reflect the very same thing's you are complaining about in PVP and now I own.

[BoDiE]

82 paged necro thread. No nerf incoming. Get used to it.

[akunamatata]

nerf sorcer/sage makes no sense, just let them being 100% of the pvp players and then BW have a easy job , just need to make balance around 1 class

[Tumri]

I'm going to reiterate what I posted in the first thread with some more specific updates on what people have said in both threads... My original post on this can be found here at the bottom of the page.

 

Assumptions I'm using for math:

1. Willpower: 1737
   
2. Force Power + Power: 1442
   
3. Crit/Surge/Alacrity: 410/153/346 (values from the spreadsheet BiS.)
   
4. DPS numbers are an "ideal" fight
   
5. Rotations are also "ideal"
   

 

A quick note too about the specs I'm using (I'm not going to go into full TK because I know absolutely nothing about TK past the 4th tier):

 

First - a standard 3/7/31 build for balance dps.

 

Second - a standard 0/13/28 build for hybrid dps.

 

Third - "full cc" build (the dreaded 0/20/21).

 

This isn't the build I linked in the OP. Yes you could use a build like this but you can pick up ALL of the CC talents with any of the builds I linked while not dropping your DPS this low. Here's the Sage version. Please note that "Psychokinesis" appears to be bugged on TORHead and doesn't reflect it's Sorcerer counterpart.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1

Fourth - a dps/cc build (0/19/22).

 

This is a bit more like the specs I linked. I still don't fully agree with putting points for a 1% self heal but like I said in the OP the build is flexible and allows for customization.

 

And last, a Tidal Force dps build (0/19/22).

 

Again you're taking unnecessary points in talents that aren't nearly as useful.

 

Up front - here are the updated dps values for these builds:

 

3/7/31 - 1275 dps

0/13/28 - 1326 (1268 for above build. 1326 build is this one AFAIK.)

0/20/21 (cc) - 1063

0/19/22 (dps) - 1216

0/19/22 (tidal force)- 1216

 

So in the build closest to(but not exactly) to one of the builds I posted was a loss of about 8-9% DPS from your highest standstill DPS build. I'd wager that the difference would be even lower if you used the three exact specs I linked.[/color=red]

 

(Note - a full TK build reports as 1285 dps.)

 

I should also note to maximize for the 1326 build, you must be getting a full 18 second Weakened Mind, as well as forgo the instant force lift and 20% buff to your bubble. More on that later.

 

The OP alleges this list of utilities (#4 missing in original):

 

 

 

**** I'm going to add the 2 sec root from Sever Force.

 

Not all of these abilities are available at once. Also, I think we can dispense with #14 because the capacity for self-healing is shared among 3/8 classes in the game (sage, commando, scoundrel), not to mention Guarded By The Force, which is essentially a self-heal given their dots' healing.

 

More notes on bubble. The values above are incorrect. The general thought at the moment is that trauma and expertise do not affect bubble value. The long and short of this is that expertise could not affect the value if trauma also did not (because expertise healing is trauma-ignore, not more throughput). This would make bubble values too low for anyone but BiS geared to get the 2.5k heal medal for a bubble.

 

Current estimates of bubble values are between about 3.3 and 3.7k. The values from the BiS assumptions in the spreadsheet linked above yield a 3310 bubble. Popping a 380 power trinket with those would give you a 3564 bubble.

 

Now, the meat and potatoes...

 

First, it's of critical importance to note that no Sage build can take advantage of all of the above utilities. In fact, without severely gimping one's dps, no Sage build can take advantage of most of them.

 

Second, the two most-complained about talents (the aoe mez and aoe root) are not that useful. The aoe mez is good for one thing - saving the Sage's butt. It does that pretty well, but in doing so, harms the rest of the team because it builds lots of resolve. The aoe root is pretty good in some circumstances, but because it is tied to a knockback, it will not work on targets with full resolve.

 

Third, many of the utilities mentioned don't apply to all classes. Roots and knockbacks are useless against ranged classes who can stand still and nuke you and who never come into knockback range. Almost without exclusion, the Sage's utility talents *being complained about here* are useful against melee - the Sage's natural sworn enemy.

 

Fourth, the OP ignores the balancing game that one must take to have access to all this utility, but still put out decent damage. This point is where I focus most attention.

 

Looking above, you can see the dps values for the different specs. Note that the two cc-heavy specs fall well short of full dps specs (by 20% and 8.3% respectively). Considering the immense loss of the pure cc spec, I'm not really sure there is much point in talking about it - it's a cc machine, nothing else.

 

That said, the fact that a 0/19/22 dps spec retains the cc ability merits consideration.

 

I believe the points I made above concerning the type of target on which the gained cc is useful stand. Sages need tools to escape melee, plain and simple. A good marauder or operative is a real pain in the rear to escape from alive. Personally, I find marauders to be more of a pain than operatives.

 

That said, taking the two aoe cc talents from the TK tree away from Sages probably won't hurt them much. But it probably won't help the enemy teams much either. The root from knockback is useful, yes. The aoe mez is useful to the Sage, but harms the team overall.

 

 

The question remains then, whether hybrid specs really are that overpowered. The answer, I believe, is - not really. Were they in fact vastly overpowered, I would expect to see a Sage doing 1.5-2x the damage of other classes, and this just is not the case. I will admit that the skill:damage ratio on a sage has a much lower curve than other classes, but after a certain point, skilled players of other classes are on par.

 

On a related note - the discrepancy in DPS seems to widen with gear, so for the majority of players, a hybrid spec is not going to pull as far ahead in pure dps numbers.

 

Also, I'd like to briefly dispel the notion that Sages "mash one button" and faceroll. Whoever started this idea is a complete moron. In a 15-sec rotation, a hybrid Sage will use 6 or 7 different abilities depending on procs. For a full Balance Sage, it's 7. Sages do not stand there and mash TK Throw - doing so is a HUGE dps loss.

 

Last but certainly not least - some info about my Sage:

 

I currently use a 0/13/28 build, and I enjoy the playstyle very much, especially when Imps are dumb and gather in groups for me. That said, I play the more survivable version of the 13/28 build, picking up the self-heal, instant force lift, and bubble buff and taking the lower dps. I'm seriously considering switching to a full Balance build, if for no other reason than to show the nubs out there that hybrids are not really doing crazy damage like everyone claims.

 

Sorry for the wall of text.

 

TL;DR : No dps sage worth their salt would ever be able to access all of the available cc talents. Many of them don't actually apply to non-melee classes. And the dps difference is not that big for hybrid/full-31.

 

A lot of what you're saying is true for the builds that YOU used. My main is not a Sorcerer but even I was able to come up with some example builds that were better while not skipping CC. I don't know if you intentionally used different builds to prove your point or if you overlooked part of the OP. Could you please take a look at the following builds and see how they stack up in whatever spreadsheet you're using? I would use simcraft but from what I've heard it's still not fully accurate and I don't want to use a spreadsheet that is different from yours since that might produce inaccuracies or spark debate over whether the spreadsheet is accurate.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1 - The ORIGINAL 20/21 build I linked. It's not even the best combination since it was just an example I threw together in 10 seconds while writing the OP.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRbZcrcRsMkM.1 - A DoT dependent version of the build that gains DPS but loses out on 20s Force Sprint.

 

In the two builds above "Lightning Storm" may be substituted with a talent of your choice. I felt that it provided PvP utility by allowing more Chain Lightnings at times when people piled up but it's an optional talent.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrhZcMcRsMz.1 - A Bursty variant that sacrifices sustained DPS for more damage from Chain Lightning.

 

------

 

Note that NONE of these builds give up any of the core CC talents and the talents that do get swapped in/out of based on preference are "Lightning Effusion" and "Suppression". The 10s CD reduction talent for Electrocute is only taken to reach the higher tier of Madness and that is why the 3rd build doesn't take it. It's a minor CD reduction in any case.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Tumri

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I can sum up the entire thread of 86 pages:

 

TLDER: I got owned by a sorc and I want them nerfed

[Tumri]

lol, It looks like someone got owned and decided to complain about it.

 

Ok

 

Also thank you for posting that guide. I re-spec my talent points to reflect the very same thing's you are complaining about in PVP and now I own.

 

Isn't this contradictory to what you JUST typed a second ago in the same post?

 

I don't get it. You basically type out a sentence that says "L2P". Then you go on to say you used the builds I claimed were OP and then started doing far better than you previously were.

[Kelticfury]

Still flogging this horse?

 

This trainwreck of ignorance and misinformation is still here!?!?!

[Tumri]

trainwreck of ignorance and misinformation

 

Please clarify.

[BoDiE]

Still flogging this horse?

 

This trainwreck of ignorance and misinformation is still here!?!?!

 

Inorite?

 

Little mad kiddy winks trying to force a nerf through that ain't, never, shan't, won't, can't ever happen. Fun read though

[Kelticfury]

Please clarify.

 

I don't need to clarify for you, you are living it.

 

This is a perfect example of the deliberate obtuseness that you have been spewing since the beginning of this thread.

 

I suppose you will come back with something like yadda yadda go back and read. I don't need to. I was following this thread from the beginning, chuckling under my breath all the way, and I go away for a few days and you are still here wallowing in your insistance that red is blue. I don't need to go back and read the edited version.

 

Good for you, it takes trolls like you to make devs ruin their own MMO. GG

[BoDiE]

Please clarify.

 

I'll clarify. You suck at pvp. The fact this thread only has 80 or so pages in the MONTH that it has been going should make you embarrassed enough to hush your whining. 1.7 million player base and there's perhaps 60 or so people crying about sorcs yet you necro and piss and moan to get your way. Clear enough for ya?

[Tumri]

I don't need to clarify for you, you are living it.

 

This is a perfect example of the deliberate obtuseness that you have been spewing since the beginning of this thread.

 

I suppose you will come back with something like yadda yadda go back and read. I don't need to. I was following this thread from the beginning, chuckling under my breath all the way, and I go away for a few days and you are still here wallowing in your insistance that red is blue. I don't need to go back and read the edited version.

 

Good for you, it takes trolls like you to make devs ruin their own MMO. GG

 

 

Two people are in a dark room.

 

P1: Whoa it's dark. I wonder what's really in here.

P2: There's a bunch of dragons dude.

P1: Really? Is there any way you can prove that?

P2: No but I said so and therefore it must be true.

P1: Hmm.. I don't think so.

 

You're acting like P2. "I said so and therefore it must be true" is the argument you're peddling right now. The OP provides evidence for my viewpoint. Others in this thread have stated their opinions and provided evidence and information to support it. You refuse to provide any evidence or support your viewpoint in any way. That's ignorance(or stubbornness depending on how you look at it).

[Tumri]

I'll clarify. You suck at pvp. The fact this thread only has 80 or so pages in the MONTH that it has been going should make you embarrassed enough to hush your whining. 1.7 million player base and there's perhaps 60 or so people crying about sorcs yet you necro and piss and moan to get your way. Clear enough for ya?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=271581

 

 

The original thread reached the post threshold and was moved into a new thread. You missed the bright gold moderator post right below my original post.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Tumri

[Kelticfury]

Two people are in a dark room.

 

P1: Whoa it's dark. I wonder what's really in here.

P2: There's a bunch of dragons dude.

P1: Really? Is there any way you can prove that?

P2: No but I said so and therefore it must be true.

P1: Hmm.. I don't think so.

 

You're acting like P2. "I said so and therefore it must be true" is the argument you're peddling right now. The OP provides evidence for my viewpoint. Others in this thread have stated their opinions and provided evidence and information to support it. You refuse to provide any evidence or support your viewpoint in any way. That's ignorance(or stubbornness depending on how you look at it).

 

Whatever you say chief. You have filled one full thread and are now near to filling up its zombie awakening with the same garbage. I don't need to reiterate what so many people have already said.

 

You are wrong, you are whining, you need the idea into your head that classes are different and have different roles. And most importantly: if you can't kill a solo sorc, you shouldn't be pvping.

 

Plead more ignorance, try to deflect it onto someone else, but dude I hate to break it to you, there are 100s of your own posts on this thread alone that put that ball squarely in your court.

 

I have wasted enough time on this, so have fun throwing walls of text around trying to change reality.

[GrandMike]

Two people are in a dark room.

 

P1: Whoa it's dark. I wonder what's really in here.

P2: There's a bunch of dragons dude.

P1: Really? Is there any way you can prove that?

P2: No but I said so and therefore it must be true.

P1: Hmm.. I don't think so.

 

You just owned your own thread. Nce job!

 

Plenty of people have lit up the candle for ya and shown there are no dragons Yet you refuse to believe it. Go on, its amusing

Edited February 18, 2012 by GrandMike