The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[Dregas]

I didnt read 64 pages admittedly but another thing in case it wasnt mentioned is their spammable force lighting actually gives them a net gain in mana. They will actually gain mana over the channelling hence after the channelling they have more mana then before

 

That is just an absolute oversight and it is why all those people spam it constantly

If a bh as an example spam their tracer missle they would over heat pretty quickly

 

The mana use should triple for this

 

THIS

 

Let me ask you a question...what other class has a power that is spammable, gives a resource net gain, does good dmg, AND applies CC slows?

 

If you consider such a power hunky dorey and fair. Then you got me stumped and I've got nothing more to say.

[savionen]

a class is only far better than others when "others" don't learn how to play against that class.

sorry if you consider a sorcerer's tool set a "cheat code".

 

but when someone tells you how you can make those "cheat codes" useless, you come back why should i do that?

 

i can only give you a big lol

 

I suppose you think that it was fine when Operatives could stack items to do 8k crits in the 10-50 bracket on people with 11k health? Everyone else just needed to L2P.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen

[Cruxe]

Let me ask you a question...what other class has a power that is spammable, gives a resource net gain, does good dmg, AND applies CC slows?

 

Full Auto

[shaidarlol]

I suppose you think that it was fine when Operatives could stack items to do 8k crits in the 10-50 bracket on people with 11k health? Everyone else just needed to L2P.

 

there are several posts i've made in this thread on how i believe the operative nerf shouldn't have been made.

 

so i hope that answers your question

[savionen]

Full Auto

 

Full Auto has a 15sec cooldown when the proc doesn't happen.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen

[shaidarlol]

THIS

 

Let me ask you a question...what other class has a power that is spammable, gives a resource net gain, does good dmg, AND applies CC slows?

 

If you consider such a power hunky dorey and fair. Then you got me stumped and I've got nothing more to say.

 

i can answer this question for you.

 

guess what is the only ranged class in this game that doesn't have a resource free ranged attack?

[Howbadisbad]

a class is only far better than others when "others" don't learn how to play against that class.

sorry if you consider a sorcerer's tool set a "cheat code".

 

but when someone tells you how you can make those "cheat codes" useless, you come back with why should i do that?

 

i can only give you a big lol

 

This logic is so flawed its hard to read...

[shaidarlol]

This logic is so flawed its hard to read...

 

yes that logic is definitely flawed.

 

given premise which should be everyone's premise

 

"game is balanced for all classes"

 

if you start with a premise that claims a class is already imbalanced then nothing you say really matters does it?

 

it's called begging the question

[Cythis]

I'm not asking for any of that. I'm asking for minor changes mentioned in the OP because I'd rather them be undernerfed than overnerfed. Many others in this thread have asked for sweeping massive changes to rebalance them but in my OP I suggest baby steps to find a place where they're strong but not stupidly overpowered.

 

I agree with were your going but fear the result would be far worse without a complete overhaul. Your wrath suggestion would not hurt our single target dps much but cripples our aoe potential. Until Alacrity is addressed this change would basically force us into one spec for pvp (im talking max dps theorycraft).

[Tumri]

No leap necessary to open, sages are generally stationary unless being attacked. Sorc stuns, you take it. He gets a free force lightning, maybe 5k damage tops Just tank it like a man because ~1/3rd of your health is NOTHING. Stun's up, you force camo. There's no root on you at that point. Now you close gap with +movement YEAH! Use that +30% movement speed to run 30 meters in 4 seconds because that's definitely possible *also the sage stands still wondering if you went out for lunch while you're stealthed*. No whirlwind, you interrupt it because the raw awesome of your double lightsabers allows you to interrupt instant cast abilities. He knockbacks, you break it with the POWER OF GREYSKULL!. Saber throw to pop shield stun because with your hax skills you stole an ability from another advanced class and also buffed it's damage so it does more than ~1500 damage on a crit. If it doesn't crit and pop shield you melee with Crippling Slash and while Crippling Slash costs 2 rage and does ~800 damage the shield should break because you have THE POWER OF GREYSKULL*also you somehow stay in melee range long enough to do this and he doesn't just use force slow to kite you.. meh minor details*. Shield pops, 3 second stun but he's slowed. Even if he cleanses it that means you're out of stun before he has gained much distance, you leap.

 

You're now in melee range with a Sorc wth no knockback, no stun, and no shield. If you can't win now, you're horrible. Just bring that Sorcerer down from 16k to 0 in the 5-6 seconds you get where you're not completely unable to do damage. Obviously your special Marauder powers prevent him from using force slow to keep kiting you. He also can't use any of his damaging abilities because all of those have definitely have a minimum range that nobody knows about yet. Also all his other abilities are on cooldown somehow

 

If you're going to apply perfect tactical knowledge, timing, and awareness to the sage, you might as well apply it to the marauder. You might as well also apply the POWER OF CASTLE GREYSKULL, hacking skills, and the ability to bend reality with your awesome power to the Marauder because why not?

 

 

Fixed for inaccuracies.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Tumri

[Tumri]

I agree with were your going but fear the result would be far worse without a complete overhaul. Your wrath suggestion would not hurt our single target dps much but cripples our aoe potential. Until Alacrity is addressed this change would basically force us into one spec for pvp (im talking max dps theorycraft).

 

Yeah the Wrath suggestion is the "nuclear option". The other change I suggested was the one I mentioned as the preferred option to just tone them down slightly to see where they stand afterwards.

[Gryphandor]

It is really very simple. Three of anything on one target is death. Now three Sorc just have it faster and easier. Thier damage is high because they are so squishy. That increased damage is then multiplied by 3 of them on one target.

 

So basically they scale more then any other class by how many of them there are. One all by itself is a joke BTW. I will just rip it to shreds and have blown every interrupt I have to do it.

 

See most of what they are doing is a cast. You can interrupt one of them. You can't interrupt two or three of them. Again a reason why they scale so well the more you have. Maybe it is intended since it is such a weak and fragile class alone.

 

I feel for all of you weak fragile Sorc that know you are nothing by yourself and don't want to hear another word about needing nerfs. Just something about how you work as a group needs to change.

 

Sorry but it is no fun for any person I have ever spoken to being crushed in second over and over because three Sorc lock on to him every time they see him. You wouldn't think it was fun either. Infact it would ruin your PVP enjoyment. Wouldn't it?

 

Now I don't know how you fix a problem like that aside from making the same type of damage from another target suffer from some diminished effect when it hits you at the same time. Also that screws with numbers and those who care about how much damage they do over the objectives.

 

Take what you will from this. Just my rant!

[Zlashie]

My biggest gripe about sorcs is that pretty much everyone plays them now. It's common to see 4+ sorcs in every wz. Yesterday in wz was idiotic; 6 sorcs on the opposing teams. Worst loss we had was sorcs with these numbers;

-500k dmg, 100k heals

-400k dmg, 75k heals

-330k dmg, 30k heals

 

We had 1 kill combined. I did 330k dmg with 0 kills. Did we suck? Not really. It's just impossible to kill sorc heavy teams. All of them have bubbles all the time. They all heal each other. Focusing on 1 target cannot take them down because they heal each other.

 

Why should I play my class which cannot heal, does less damage than a sorc and is way more squishy? This is the real question. There is really no compelling argument to NOT play a sorc; you get it all with no penalties.

 

This is the issue which needs to be addressed.

 

/blodtann

 

This explains everything.

 

Those that disagree are either too blind to see the strength of the sorc, too ignorant to believe the strength of a sorc or a sorc trying to keep himself on a pedestal.

 

/thread

Edited February 16, 2012 by Zlashie

[Tumri]

They are not weak and fragile. Just take a look at my bubble math. They're no squisher than any other class unless they're main tanking a raid boss(or standing still tanking multiple players for extended periods of time while getting bombarded with heals). Edited February 16, 2012 by Tumri

[Vales]

This thread still going on? Man I need more popcorn to see all those bads cry more about Sorcs and Sages.

 

Pure comedy.

 

It's impossible to get through to you. Your argument can basically broken down to "It's okay for them to be overpowered because as long as you stay out of their way they won't do anything to you."

 

You're extremely inexperienced with regards to class balance in MMOs and it's showing.

 

So are you.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Vales

[laiboch]

Make you a deal.

 

First you would really need to focus on the two classes that really need some help.

 

Trooper/Merc need to be balanced out they do more damage and have at least as much effective utility as a Sorc.

 

Fix Sith warrior and Jedi knights.

 

They require far to much work to pull off the same damage as most other classes. Its rather pathetic that you should have to use 8-12 abilities to pull the same damage as a Merc/trooper that can use 3-4 abilities to do better damage at range. \

 

After those things are fixed please feel free to look into Sorc.

 

One of your key issues and where your argument falls flat is you are taking ALL the potential abilities from 2 different trees and making it sound like a Sorc has all of them, and that's simply not true.

 

Players running these hybrid classes don't have half the abilities you are running together. I am sure I could make a post on say Sentinel running abilities from 2 trees together that no sent would actually have and make a huge QQ post and have people crying in the night like frightened children as well. Anyone that actually plays the class knows you are kind of making crap up on the fly and so do the dev's.

[Tumri]

Make you a deal.

 

First you would really need to focus on the two classes that really need some help.

 

Trooper/Merc need to be balanced out they do more damage and have at least as much effective utility as a Sorc.

 

Fix Sith warrior and Jedi knights.

 

They require far to much work to pull off the same damage as most other classes. Its rather pathetic that you should have to use 8-12 abilities to pull the same damage as a Merc/trooper that can use 3-4 abilities to do better damage at range. \

 

After those things are fixed please feel free to look into Sorc.

 

One of your key issues and where your argument falls flat is you are taking ALL the potential abilities from 2 different trees and making it sound like a Sorc has all of them, and that's simply not true.

 

Players running these hybrid classes don't have half the abilities you are running together. I am sure I could make a post on say Sentinel running abilities from 2 trees together that no sent would actually have and make a huge QQ post and have people crying in the night like frightened children as well. Anyone that actually plays the class knows you are kind of making crap up on the fly and so do the dev's.

 

Except if you read the original post fully and looked at the CCs I listed with the specs I posted you would see that every single bit of that CC I mentioned is obtainable by a single Sorcerer while also not giving up much damage.

[Sirolos]

Yeah the Wrath suggestion is the "nuclear option". The other change I suggested was the one I mentioned as the preferred option to just tone them down slightly to see where they stand afterwards.

 

Nvm I reread the OP..

 

Ty tumri.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Sirolos

[Vales]

My biggest gripe about sorcs is that pretty much everyone plays them now. It's common to see 4+ sorcs in every wz. Yesterday in wz was idiotic; 6 sorcs on the opposing teams. Worst loss we had was sorcs with these numbers;

-500k dmg, 100k heals

-400k dmg, 75k heals

-330k dmg, 30k heals

 

We had 1 kill combined. I did 330k dmg with 0 kills. Did we suck? Not really. It's just impossible to kill sorc heavy teams. All of them have bubbles all the time. They all heal each other. Focusing on 1 target cannot take them down because they heal each other.

 

Why should I play my class which cannot heal, does less damage than a sorc and is way more squishy? This is the real question. There is really no compelling argument to NOT play a sorc; you get it all with no penalties.

 

This is the issue which needs to be addressed.

 

/blodtann

 

Strange, I see more and more Mercs/Vanguards and Guardians/Juggers at the moment.

Guess it is again all subjective?

 

NO really. I found the class to be over the top. Perhaps the class is hard for you?? I kill sorcs regularly on my shadow, they are certainly kill-able, they are just OP when played properly. I found them really, really easy.Din't you? You have played the class right? I am being serious here, you must admit that the class is stronger than most, if not all other classes in pvp?? With all the cc in the game, ranged has a huge advantage to begin with, but with sorc its ranged+heals+insane utility.

 

And, just in case you weren't paying attention: I just said DON'T NERF them.

 

Just to remain balanced, I will level mine to 50 and then see how it changes, but realistically I can't see how it would get worse. All I am saying is pre-50 they have insane utility, great damage, and can heal. In the right hands they don't really have any weakness that I can see. I honestly was laughing when I did wz's cause the class just wrecks stuff. I would have thought I was just awesome if I din't understand how much more difficult other classes are.

 

I called no person names. I just said it's a handicap class. Its fotm. It's easy to play. This is my subjective opinion (as is yours) so you can safely ignore it if you disagree.

 

You and I know secretly you know I am right. Nobody wants to be nerfed, and you are afraid of it. I get it.

 

I only know you talk so much BS out of your rear it is pure comedy.

Every class in this game is easy no exception. Anyone spouting rubbish how "skillful" another class is especially pure tunnelvision class like Sent/Marauder needs their head checked.

 

Are you going to ever post anything relevant or just continue chiming in like this?

 

Why should someone post something relevant in a completely irrelevant thread full of diehards who think their opinion is better than others and pretend they had some sort of argument when in reality its a steaming pile of BS?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Vales

[YMIHere]

NO really. I found the class to be over the top. Perhaps the class is hard for you?? I kill sorcs regularly on my shadow, they are certainly kill-able, they are just OP when played properly. I found them really, really easy.Din't you? You have played the class right? I am being serious here, you must admit that the class is stronger than most, if not all other classes in pvp?? With all the cc in the game, ranged has a huge advantage to begin with, but with sorc its ranged+heals+insane utility.

 

And, just in case you weren't paying attention: I just said DON'T NERF them.

 

Just to remain balanced, I will level mine to 50 and then see how it changes, but realistically I can't see how it would get worse. All I am saying is pre-50 they have insane utility, great damage, and can heal. In the right hands they don't really have any weakness that I can see. I honestly was laughing when I did wz's cause the class just wrecks stuff. I would have thought I was just awesome if I din't understand how much more difficult other classes are.

 

I called no person names. I just said it's a handicap class. Its fotm. It's easy to play. This is my subjective opinion (as is yours) so you can safely ignore it if you disagree.

 

You and I know secretly you know I am right. Nobody wants to be nerfed, and you are afraid of it. I get it.

 

This class is an early bloomer, real early. While I have most of my utilities by 16, Operatives don't get their main attack until 36. Marauders/Juggernauts good abilities are sprinkled throughout. In the sub 50 bracket I'd imagine Sorcerers do much better, their top talents aren't great (minus healing spec) and the chance of the enemy not having the tools to deal with you is much better. I'd say they're overpowered in the lower bracket, leveling was a breeze with healing spec and given how much I had to heal it'd have probably been faster to dps and use my off heals when needed. I'd say it's fairly easy to play as well, but I also agree with you getting to 50 and getting some gear. When everybody has their big damage skills and utility that a Sorcerer gets by 16 I'd imagine it comes more inline. Admittedly, I haven't rerolled another Sorcerer and I didn't switch to DPS until 50.

[Erasimus]

Except if you read the original post fully and looked at the CCs I listed with the specs I posted you would see that every single bit of that CC I mentioned is obtainable by a single Sorcerer while also not giving up much damage.

 

And this true but is baloney none-the-less. Now my main is a 50 Gunslinger and one of my alts is a 48 Sorcerer. Sorcerers do give up damage to get all that CC but it isn't a huge amount because in PvP we really don't have more than mediocre damage to begin with. Most of our top-tier damage capabilities are next to useless in PvP. Even with them Sorcerers are more designed toward sustained damage and don't have the burst that many other classes have.

 

I'll even concede that they have better CC but except for whirlwind it is all roots and snares so they can run away and is most effective against melee classes and much less effective against range who can root/daze etc from a distance. My Gunslinger can Dirty Kick, Flash Bomb, Leg shot and two of those are incapacitating so you can't do any attacks even ranged attacks while he gets away. BTW my GS's shield also counts as healing and he has 2 a 3 second immunity from melee and a damage absorption shield.

 

I would argue that with their current lack of burst damage and their squishiness they need the shield and snares to break even.

 

Could they be rebalanced to have more burst damage, a bit less CC, etc. Of course, but then in my opinion they would lose some of their unique character.

 

 

I'm sure lots of balance changes will eventually be made to all classes. I play my GS the majority of the time and don't see the need for nerfs to Sorcerers or Sages although I would like to see my Gunslinger buffed

[Sirolos]

I agree with were your going but fear the result would be far worse without a complete overhaul. Your wrath suggestion would not hurt our single target dps much but cripples our aoe potential. Until Alacrity is addressed this change would basically force us into one spec for pvp (im talking max dps theorycraft).

 

I dont.

 

Reason being, my sage right now is a full balance spec.

 

I usually average 200k dps on bad days. and this is by using

 

Force quake and FiB

and DoT's

 

The majority of my damage is from people clumping up.

 

Sorcs/Sages Do not need to be hybrid spec to do well in pvp.

And i doubt it was intended for us to be able to profit by being able to tri spec or do hybrid spec's with 3 AoE's.

Lighting can still get its instant cast CL's with Lighting Storm.

Just not as frequent or boosted as wrath.

 

Lighting/TK tree need a buff..and the talents for its utility needs to be shifted.

But hybrids need to go.

And they will, just like what they did with the Assassins

 

Im looking for the easiest, non destroying solution, thats both logical, partially simple, and easy to implement.

That will cause less of a ripple and snowball effect for the rest of the classes.

 

I can pretty much guarantee you.

If the Sage or sorc is destroyed beyond reasonable repair.

The entire game will feel the snowball effect.

Twice as bad as it is now after the Operative nerf.

[syntxerr]

And this true but is baloney none-the-less. Now my main is a 50 Gunslinger and one of my alts is a 48 Sorcerer. Sorcerers do give up damage to get all that CC but it isn't a huge amount because in PvP we really don't have more than mediocre damage to begin with. Most of our top-tier damage capabilities are next to useless in PvP. Even with them Sorcerers are more designed toward sustained damage and don't have the burst that many other classes have.

 

I'll even concede that they have better CC but except for whirlwind it is all roots and snares so they can run away and is most effective against melee classes and much less effective against range who can root/daze etc from a distance. My Gunslinger can Dirty Kick, Flash Bomb, Leg shot and two of those are incapacitating so you can't do any attacks even ranged attacks while he gets away. BTW my GS's shield also counts as healing and he has 2 a 3 second immunity from melee and a damage absorption shield.

 

I would argue that with their current lack of burst damage and their squishiness they need the shield and snares to break even.

 

Could they be rebalanced to have more burst damage, a bit less CC, etc. Of course, but then in my opinion they would lose some of their unique character.

 

 

I'm sure lots of balance changes will eventually be made to all classes. I play my GS the majority of the time and don't see the need for nerfs to Sorcerers or Sages although I would like to see my Gunslinger buffed

 

Exactly, thank you for that.

 

Sages/Sorcs really need all of their utility in order to survive and be effective. This can not be compared by pure number crunching to other classes. One always needs to consider the whole picture. Of course there are situations where this class shines and there are situations where this class doesn't. The same applies to most classes out there.

 

Personally, I don't see the reason and I can't hear this debate anymore. Amongst others, I am playing a Sage Seer. Great fun, I love him. Especially 1vs1. I don't think I'm that bad at it and therefore I stomp over quite a few Imps daily in 1vs1. But I also get crushed quicker than I can say 'nerf' sometimes. By various classes. It all comes down to the player.

 

I often see people mindlessly trying to DPS me down, even though depending on the situatuion this might be a bad idea. Blowing their interrupt on unimportant casts, blowing their gap closers, slows and other utility when there is no need and they'd be better saved for a more critical moment, etc.

And then there are players who know how to properly pressure me, hot to shut me down and how to annoy me with their utility. And they crush me, just the way I can beat Sorcs/Sages on my Vanguard without much hassle, unless again the other player was smarter about the fight.

 

Not too long ago there were all those threads about how disappointed Sages/Sorc will be at 50 because of how squishy they are. And that's true. At the same time, there are tons of Sorcs around and I have the feeling people panic as soon as they get struck by some lightning. And yes, a freecasting Sorc can be very dangerous. It almost seems as if people get hit by a lightning and complain, as if they blow two CDs on the shield and complain, not considering how quickly the Sorc dies, once the shield is down and as if they saw the devastation of a freecasting one, just to have him escape once they close in -> ergo utility nerfs demanded.

 

Seriously people, almost every class out there can be devastating and extremely annoying in the proper hands. It is often not about chaining your most damaging abilities and nuking the opponent down but about being smart about the fight.

 

Now, when it comes to said hybrid spec, I really don't know. I didn't try it. But, please consider there are other specs out there, like the pure healing one, before you demand abilities to be thrown around in the talent trees. From a healer's perspective I'm talking especially about abilities like increased force, increased shield aborbtion and decreased ability cost.

 

Edit: Oh, and stop being lazy. Sometimes I think all people want is leap in my face and kill me after pressing three buttons. If my knockback followed by force speed confused you and you don't feel like pursuing, please don't complain about survivability, because if you would actually go after me, chances are I'll be an easy kill behind the next corner. Few do it, but most that do, kill.

Edited February 16, 2012 by syntxerr

[Tumri]

The problem with giving them some sort of buff to compensate for any potential nerf is that they're already very good at EVERYTHING. They might not be the absolute best in the game at a few things but at the bare minimum they're middle of the pack. People say they lack burst when in fact they're middle of the pack. Sorcerers get so many things that they're the best at that some people think being middle of the pack in just one aspect is the equivalent of being the worst. They need nerfs. In their current state they are overpowered. I made this thread to suggest the smallest of nerfs to see where they end up after losing a bit of talented CC or access to the hard to balance hybrid spec. Chances are even if my suggestions are implemented they'll still be the strongest class in PvP. Edited February 16, 2012 by Tumri

[syntxerr]

The problem with giving them some sort of buff to compensate for any potential nerf is that they're already very good at EVERYTHING. They might not be the absolute best in the game at a few things but at the bare minimum they're middle of the pack. People say they lack burst when in fact they're middle of the pack. Sorcerers get so many things that they're the best at that some people think being middle of the pack in just one aspect is the equivalent of being the worst. They need nerfs. In their current state they are overpowered. I made this thread to suggest the smallest of nerfs to see where they end up after losing a bit of talented CC. Chances are even if my suggestions are implemented they'll still be the strongest class in PvP.

 

I don't think they're the strongest class in PVP. Funny how people don't complain about Marauders, which can basically crush any combo 2vs1. I think the class is well balanced, don't ruin it. I'd rather ask to have classes buffed that don't do so well at the moment, instead of ruining others.