Quality of life change for the Carnage tree.

[Selixx]

Wrong, if you're only using one of the two currently you're not doing optimal dps. You use massacre to get the buff and VS otherwise.

 

Massacre does more damage with its guaranteed proc then VS does overall. You should always be using Massacre.

 

Ataru damage is also not effected by armor, so the more you can proc, the more damage you can do. After all this is said, if you still think Vicious slash is better(you still cant prove it as there are no combat logs), then this isnt the class for you.

 

Ataru strikes deal energy damage, and are therefore subject to mitigation by armor.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Selixx

[halfhourofpower]

If you think that, you honestly dont know how to optimize DPS. Massacre can proc 2, in case you havent been reading your own thread. But lets do the math, since you seem to not have been doing it.

 

Viscous slash with my gear does up to 1439 according to the tooltip.

 

Massacre does up to 1225(with my gear). With Ataru(+291) it will(not can, its guaranteed) do 1516. ISNT MATH FUN. But wait! theres a 50% chance itll proc a second massacre, so lets just add half an ataru strike to it! 1662. And all three of those have a chance to crit. Making the total possible damage around 2.8k. Vicious slash would be around 2.3k total damage, and both have to crit, not to mention you only have a 50% chance to do an ataru proc and that one has to crit.

 

Ataru damage is also not effected by armor, so the more you can proc, the more damage you can do. After all this is said, if you still think Vicious slash is better(you still cant prove it as there are no combat logs), then this isnt the class for you.

 

Math is not fun, take it back.

[AcaciaDragon]

Ataru strikes deal energy damage, and are therefore subject to mitigation by armor.

 

I dont think it is. After a Gore Ataru's dont seem to hit harder. Also my tooltip says it does 291 damage, and it does hit for that amount. If armor mitigation applied, it would hit for slightly less.

[xDreegan]

Are you suggesting Massacre hits three times? I can only see that if Massacre is used after a previous Massacre. The first Massacre will only hit twice. It applies the Ataru Proc buff -after- you attack.

 

Bump for proc that lets Ravage channel twice as fast

[AcaciaDragon]

Are you suggesting Massacre hits three times? I can only see that if Massacre is used after a previous Massacre. The first Massacre will only hit twice. It applies the Ataru Proc buff -after- you attack.

 

Bump for proc that lets Ravage channel twice as fast

 

Never said 3 times. it can proc 1 for Massacre(guaranteed), and another thats on the GCD.

[xDreegan]

Never said 3 times. it can proc 1 for Massacre(guaranteed), and another thats on the GCD.

 

Then why add half an Ataru strike to Massacre's total damage?

[AcaciaDragon]

Then why add half an Ataru strike to Massacre's total damage?

 

It was more for mathmatical emphasis showing how much damage an average Massacre can do over a long period of time, I didnt explain that because it was i thought fairly obvious. It was just a way to show how viable Massacre was over Vicious slash with the extra chance for Ataru Strikes. AGAIN 1 guaranteed, and 1 that has a 50% chance to hit. 1 out of 2 will grant an extra massacre with that buff. So statistically, 2 massacres will grant 3 Ataru strikes.

[mrHaterade]

Make Ataru increase offhand damage by another 50% so that with Mastery you'll be at 86% damage with the offhand. Also, make Defensive Forms increase movement speed all the time, not just in combat. Finally, instead of immobilizing, make Overwhelm remove channeling from Ravage like Force Grip does for Choke. For the extra point, make Gore take two points: 1 for 50% AP, 2 for 100% AP.

[Spiderbubble]

I like all the suggestions here, but I still think it needs to be a combination of an Ataru buff along with a Gore rework.

 

Ataru strikes are actually quite weak for what they say they do. "An additional strike" sounds like it's a third hit, which it doesn't even come anywhere close to. It's quite upsetting, actually.

 

Secondly, Gore is actually way too unreliable. It doesn't last nearly long enough, costs a ton of rage, and it's benefits are rather mediocre considering %damage reduction still affects our attacks. You might ignore their armor, but if they have -20% damage reduction, you still aren't hitting as hard as you should be.

 

I believe Ataru procs need to be increased by about 10% in damage, and Gore needs an extra two seconds on the timer OR go on a stack system.

 

Carnage doesn't really need THAT much to be on-par, but it's obviously the underdog in PvP. In PvE, it's probably on-par with Annihilation on single targets, where Rage is the best for multi-targets. However, Annihilation has the healing and the spammable Fury-based abilities. Hence, Carnage falls off.

[MBlackhand]

Make Ataru increase offhand damage by another 50% so that with Mastery you'll be at 86% damage with the offhand. Also, make Defensive Forms increase movement speed all the time, not just in combat. Finally, instead of immobilizing, make Overwhelm remove channeling from Ravage like Force Grip does for Choke. For the extra point, make Gore take two points: 1 for 50% AP, 2 for 100% AP.

 

This.

[NotSevv]

After 50 of each not counting the secondary Ataru strikes (ones that procs on VS and ones that proc after the assured hit from Mass.)

 

Mind you alot more procced on Mass.

 

VS average damage = 1443.5

Mass average damage = 1458.13 + 233.63 for a total of 1691.76

 

A 1.18% bonus damage these were done without gore and not counting all the extra ataru strikes that proc.

 

Also gore is worth it if you're running out of rage the your rotation may be off.

Edited February 15, 2012 by NotSevv

[Eugee]

There's no need to even consider the 50% ataru proc--math should be reduced to the simplest comparison. Massacre procs an automatic Ataru, and still has the standard 50% ataru proc chance. Vicious only has the 50% proc chance. Since they both have the 50% chance, don't compare that.

 

Massacre + Ataru > Vicious Slash.

 

That's literally all the math that is involved.

[xDreegan]

There's no need to even consider the 50% ataru proc--math should be reduced to the simplest comparison. Massacre procs an automatic Ataru, and still has the standard 50% ataru proc chance. Vicious only has the 50% proc chance. Since they both have the 50% chance, don't compare that.

 

Massacre + Ataru > Vicious Slash.

 

That's literally all the math that is involved.

 

Vicious Slash needs the Massacre buff in order to have a 50% to proc Ataru.

[Atzoski]

OK so i have a PVE carnage build and this may be off topic but rather than working out the damage differences I re added Vicious Slash to my rotation. After many attempts I figured out my output dmg wasn't high. My rotation was battering assault, gore, massacre, force scream then spam random moves till cool-downs came off. I then reworked vicious slash into it. since massacre leaves a buff I figured during that buff id spam vicious slash to get the extra damage. As a side note SPAMMING MASSACRE IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF DPS. so my new rotation is now batering assault, gore, massacre, force scream, then use vicious slash only until other cool-downs are up and massacre buff is on I then repeat. therefore i don't face-roll any more. With the massacre buff up I have the 1.5k dmg from vicious slash then i get the extra 900 from ataru form strikes. If you use just massacre you only get about 800 dmg plus the guaranteed 900 which is less. If you use vicious slash only when massacre buff is up you get a some 65ish% chance to get a 900 dmg hit giving this a lot more dmg output.

I hope you guys find this useful in some way, it definitively has made my dmg increase by a ****-ton and a lot easier to solo.

[Spiderbubble]

As has been stated, Vicious Slash is completely trumped by Massacre.

 

Massacre can do TWO Ataru Form strikes. The first is always guaranteed.

 

Vicious Slash can do ONE.

 

 

Anyone who still uses Vicious Slash after getting Massacre is kidding themselves.

[NotSevv]

OK so i have a PVE carnage build and this may be off topic but rather than working out the damage differences I re added Vicious Slash to my rotation. After many attempts I figured out my output dmg wasn't high. My rotation was battering assault, gore, massacre, force scream then spam random moves till cool-downs came off. I then reworked vicious slash into it. since massacre leaves a buff I figured during that buff id spam vicious slash to get the extra damage. As a side note SPAMMING MASSACRE IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF DPS. so my new rotation is now batering assault, gore, massacre, force scream, then use vicious slash only until other cool-downs are up and massacre buff is on I then repeat. therefore i don't face-roll any more. With the massacre buff up I have the 1.5k dmg from vicious slash then i get the extra 900 from ataru form strikes. If you use just massacre you only get about 800 dmg plus the guaranteed 900 which is less. If you use vicious slash only when massacre buff is up you get a some 65ish% chance to get a 900 dmg hit giving this a lot more dmg output.

I hope you guys find this useful in some way, it definitively has made my dmg increase by a ****-ton and a lot easier to solo.

 

It is the same rage cost, always has assured second strike and massacre spam nets you a high % of two extra strikes while keeping the buff up. Should note that people only feel dps is higher because of the slight higher damage by the big number not the extra strikes.

[xDreegan]

Think we need to get back on topic and see what we can agree on will fix our tree to bring it up to par with Anni.

[Arraegath]

Think we need to get back on topic and see what we can agree on will fix our tree to bring it up to par with Anni.

 

Increase Ataru scaling, and fix it so its distance scales with enemy hitbox, and not limited to 4m.

 

If Ataru strike was doing twice the damage it is now, I am pretty sure we would be ok.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Arraegath

[xDreegan]

Increase Ataru scaling, and fix it so its distance scales with enemy hitbox, and not limited to 4m.

 

If Ataru strike was doing twice the damage it is now, I am pretty sure we would be ok.

 

Between that and fixing it so that Ataru is correct on hitboxes is this all we need? I plan on making a petition for our tree. Have to make sure that's all we need.

[malispar]

I could be offbase, but isn't Carnage basically THE PVE spec? It really revolves around standing still and dumping damage into one target.

 

I would agree Ataru strike needs a slight buff, but think about the next tier. Talents that scale will always trump static damage. Just not in the beginning.

[xDreegan]

I could be offbase, but isn't Carnage basically THE PVE spec? It really revolves around standing still and dumping damage into one target.

 

I would agree Ataru strike needs a slight buff, but think about the next tier. Talents that scale will always trump static damage. Just not in the beginning.

 

I can see how you could come to that conclusion, but sadly its not. For one why give Carnage tree a root on Ravage and Deady throw? Most bosses are immune to controlling effects so this would be pretty pointless. Secondly Anni specs can heal themselves and the group, which is useful in both scenarios. Plus the have more mitigation and survivability, once again useful in both. They can also out DPS us in long fights, and aren't hindered by large hitboxes like Ataru is, and since a large portion of their damage comes from bleeds they're still putting out if CCed or Knocked back.

 

Carnage is a good spec, but what's the honest point if you can do PvE and PvP better as an Anni spec? See the problem here?

[malispar]

I had that exact issue when I first started playing my Marauder. I thought for sure Carnage was the essential PVP spec. It's core ability revolved around dropping burst damage, and paired with Gore, seemed like a shoe-in for high burst attacks.

 

IMO they should rework Berserk for Ataru Form, instead of that Vicious Strike cleave. Change it to either a static armor penetration percentage, or maybe a stack of charges that are consumed by melee attacks, and provide Ataru procs on consumption.

 

While we're talking about reworking Mara stuff, can we PLEASE change to Burns instead of Bleeds, like the Jedi do? Makes no sense that we use the same weapon and yet somehow we make things bleed with a cauterizing weapon...

[xDreegan]

I had that exact issue when I first started playing my Marauder. I thought for sure Carnage was the essential PVP spec. It's core ability revolved around dropping burst damage, and paired with Gore, seemed like a shoe-in for high burst attacks.

 

IMO they should rework Berserk for Ataru Form, instead of that Vicious Strike cleave. Change it to either a static armor penetration percentage, or maybe a stack of charges that are consumed by melee attacks, and provide Ataru procs on consumption.

 

While we're talking about reworking Mara stuff, can we PLEASE change to Burns instead of Bleeds, like the Jedi do? Makes no sense that we use the same weapon and yet somehow we make things bleed with a cauterizing weapon...

 

You have the two mixed up. Vicious Slash is a cleave in Berserk while Shii-Cho is activated. Aside from the reduced Rage cost, the lowered GDC doesn't really make much difference to me. I'd rather keep Predation or Bloodthirst up.

[Arraegath]

Between that and fixing it so that Ataru is correct on hitboxes is this all we need? I plan on making a petition for our tree. Have to make sure that's all we need.

 

From what I have seen, we aren't miles behind Anni, but we are a noticeable difference behind. If ataru strike got buffed to be doing essentially close to mainhand damage that gap would be closed.

 

But as far as modifying our damage, this is the easiest place for the devs to start for instance, as it is a unique ability for our spec, and the buff would not necessarily upset our priority list too much (other than making massacre higher on the list).

 

The other possibilities would be increasing the length of gore a bit higher, maybe 10seconds? Or making it charge based. Or even while berserking, make it possible to reset the gore cooldown so on so forth.

 

Or have a talent higher up in the tree that makes Ataru strike criticals give a chance to reset the gore cooldown etc etc. I would also say ravage needs a little looking into.

 

Again, we couldnt get a complete list of these things, as that would just make us go through the roof in terms of damage. I think just Ataru being bumped up, + the distance bug being taken care of would make us right on par with anni marauders.

[xDreegan]

From what I have seen, we aren't miles behind Anni, but we are a noticeable difference behind. If ataru strike got buffed to be doing essentially close to mainhand damage that gap would be closed.

 

But as far as modifying our damage, this is the easiest place for the devs to start for instance, as it is a unique ability for our spec, and the buff would not necessarily upset our priority list too much (other than making massacre higher on the list).

 

The other possibilities would be increasing the length of gore a bit higher, maybe 10seconds? Or making it charge based. Or even while berserking, make it possible to reset the gore cooldown so on so forth.

 

Or have a talent higher up in the tree that makes Ataru strike criticals give a chance to reset the gore cooldown etc etc. I would also say ravage needs a little looking into.

 

Again, we couldnt get a complete list of these things, as that would just make us go through the roof in terms of damage. I think just Ataru being bumped up, + the distance bug being taken care of would make us right on par with anni marauders.

 

I think Gore's cooldown is fine the way it is. Helps balance us so we're not rocking 100% armor pen on near 100% percent uptime. But the reason behind making a list of fixes isn't in the mindset that "Here BioWare, these are all the things we want done" it's to give them a general understanding of what can be done to help the tree, so they can pick and choose which ones would compliment the tree as a whole.

 

As for Ataru form, I completely agree.

 

I'd rather one of our attacks have the chance to reset the CD on Ravage. And I'm very pro a proc that lets Ravage tick twice as fast, similar to the Sorcs Force Lightning. Not saying that all the ideas need to be implemented all together, but having more options means more ways to balance things out.