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the surge purge

Yazule

By Yazule
in Commando / Mercenary

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Yazule

Yazule

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Hi, My name is Yazule and I am a Crit-aholic

 

*voices from around the room* Hi Yazule

 

 

 

anyway...

 

wow are people up in arms about the surge purge i like to call it. I have not seen any graphs or data yet but looks like they put surge curves for diminishing returns more in line with crit.

 

The affects me directly because I am a crit-aholic but in the end, really i think it is fine. So I loose 5 to 10% of my surge, so if i crit 45% of the time I am losing 10% of 180% 45% of the time, which is a total of 8.1%

 

is my math wrong there?

 

It seems like a crunch but in pvp it will effect all the big hitters equally. It just gives power more value than it used to imo.

 

not really much you can do about it anyway, not like there is a lot of crit/power upgrades out there... so it is what it is

 

It just cracks me up that everyone is sooooo up in arms about it, nothing they can do really, but they will probably have to increase rage timers by 5 to 10% in pve or the game will be unplayable on some bosses.

 

thoughts?

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Snagulus

Snagulus

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thoughts?

 

The part I don't understand is why. This isn't going to make Accuracy or Alacrity more desirable, Surge is hands down still better. I wonder if they just thought that crits were too big across the board?

 

I mean, its a sweeping nerf and we'll just have to deal with it, I just don't really understand.

 

Edit:

With those numbers it's a 4.5% overall damage decrease. But crit% changes based on buffed/skill used for us. It's a nerf, its just far too much of a headache to calculate the real loss. Not to mention everyone's exact stats are different.

 

.55(1)+.45(1.8) = 1.360

.55(1)+.45(1.7) = 1.315

Edited by Snagulus
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Battilea

Battilea

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The part I don't understand is why. This isn't going to make Accuracy or Alacrity more desirable, Surge is hands down still better. I wonder if they just thought that crits were too big across the board?

 

It is most likely a PvP nerf aimed at reducing burst damage potential.

 

For the most part, BioWare seems to be ignoring PvE issues and focusing on changing things due to PvP, so I'd assume this is no exception.

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Shinavast

Shinavast

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The part I don't understand is why. This isn't going to make Accuracy or Alacrity more desirable, Surge is hands down still better. I wonder if they just thought that crits were too big across the board?

 

I mean, its a sweeping nerf and we'll just have to deal with it, I just don't really understand.

 

Edit:

With those numbers it's a 4.5% overall damage decrease.

 

.55(1)+.45(1.8) = 1.360

.55(1)+.45(1.7) = 1.315

 

 

Nice to see some math on it. I was wincing logging in today wondering how much of a hit i was going to take (i have a decent amount of surge stacked), and it seemed to me like only about 4-5%.

 

Glad to see i was on the money.

 

 

I can live with this reduction, frankly. My only concern is boss enrage timers, but if 4-5% damage reduction is the difference between downing a boss and hitting the enrage timer, there's other issues at play (skill, gear, strat - etc).

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Ewert

Ewert

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Considering I already run alacrity "heavy" (healer, just solohealed HM Karagga Palace with 4 melee guys), this change is just making me chuckle all the more at the people dissing alacrity. ;) Edited by Ewert
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Faloma

Faloma

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Considering I already run alacrity "heavy" (healer, just solohealed HM Karagga Palace with 4 melee guys), this change is just making me chuckle all the more at the people dissing alacrity. ;)

 

No one is dissing Alacrity for healers... It is actually pretty good if you heal. It is still useless for DPS though. I mean if I go crazy with alacrity all it would allow me to do it squeeze one extra rapid shots into rotation... would rather use the gear slots to make my real abilities hit harder and crit more.

Edited by Faloma
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Ewert

Ewert

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No one is dissing Alacrity for healers... It is actually pretty good if you heal. It is still useless for DPS though. I mean if I go crazy with alacrity all it would allow me to do it squeeze one extra rapid shots into rotation... would rather use the gear slots to make my real abilities hit harder and crit more.

Actually, a ton of people are dissing alacrity even for healers. Besides since no other than healer sets really have alacrity, it kinda feels weird talking about it for dps guys doesn't it? ;)

 

Anyways calling it useless for DPS is silly. Alacrity is a burst stat. BH already excel at burst, making us insane at burst with alacrity. Be it pve or pvp, I can definitely see a use for alacrity with both pyro or arsenal.

 

Granted I am talking of high end gear here, not early 50s stuff.

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Rakunvar

Rakunvar

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People are in upheaval over it due to the nerf wasn't just some flat 10%. It was nerfed per point of surge individually. This amounts to a VERY large loss of stats and diminishing return value. I'll just link some graphs to demonstrate.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?aid=200

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?aid=204

 

Its "sort of" good simply cause it doesn't take as much to hit the diminished curve point where it's just not worth stacking more. Although, the problem is there is no in game enhancements that give straight pwr/crit to balance it out. There is only one that has a lot lower stats on it due to it being a tank enhancement but it comes out way above the other now for sure.

 

I believe this was the Old surge calculation: 50 + 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( SurgeRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.5 ) )

 

New calculation: 50 + 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( SurgeRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.11 ) )

 

Just looking there you can see a pretty clear large change.

 

Credit for the graphs and calculations goes to Sithwarrior.com's Kor and Freehugs.

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Corran

Corran

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you dont need more than 250 surge. after the two field medic rakata implants from dailies you dont need much on other pieces to get to that cap leaving you free to stack power

 

however there are no crit/power enhancements outside of a crafted level 49 one that is end/shield/crit/power. the nerf to surge not only nerfs crit magnitude but indirectly nerfs everyones crit rating due to this.

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Yazule

Yazule

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The part I don't understand is why. This isn't going to make Accuracy or Alacrity more desirable, Surge is hands down still better. I wonder if they just thought that crits were too big across the board?

 

I mean, its a sweeping nerf and we'll just have to deal with it, I just don't really understand.

 

Edit:

With those numbers it's a 4.5% overall damage decrease. But crit% changes based on buffed/skill used for us. It's a nerf, its just far too much of a headache to calculate the real loss. Not to mention everyone's exact stats are different.

 

.55(1)+.45(1.8) = 1.360

.55(1)+.45(1.7) = 1.315

 

thanks for the correction, i did my calc without paper in my head

 

so the question becomes where is the sweet spot now, i was thinking 80% now i am thinking more like 70% but have not really looked at the graphs enough yet.

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Yazule

Yazule

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People are in upheaval over it due to the nerf wasn't just some flat 10%. It was nerfed per point of surge individually. This amounts to a VERY large loss of stats and diminishing return value. I'll just link some graphs to demonstrate.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?aid=200

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?aid=204

 

Its "sort of" good simply cause it doesn't take as much to hit the diminished curve point where it's just not worth stacking more. Although, the problem is there is no in game enhancements that give straight pwr/crit to balance it out. There is only one that has a lot lower stats on it due to it being a tank enhancement but it comes out way above the other now for sure.

 

I believe this was the Old surge calculation: 50 + 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( SurgeRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.5 ) )

 

New calculation: 50 + 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( SurgeRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.11 ) )

 

Just looking there you can see a pretty clear large change.

 

Credit for the graphs and calculations goes to Sithwarrior.com's Kor and Freehugs.

 

did they have a new surg/point graph up? that one shows the difference between old and new but I am kind of wanting to look at the curve of surge/point

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Angryorc

Angryorc

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This one is pretty tidy:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ajq2cQXn3ZWAdFJ4YXQtbzRFdmVLYUVnd21Ga2FRWmc&output=html

 

I feel the overall surge nerf was to limit burst in pvp, which it did.. by like 10% :p So you live 1-2 global cooldowns longer now. \o/

 

So all it did was nerfing PVE dps where I heard it's sometimes nice to kill a hardmode/nightmare mode boss BEFORE it actually enrages!

 

Instead of looking at abilities and/or how useless expertise really is when it comes to soaking burst.. they took the easy and lame approach and straight out killed a stat.

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Yazule

Yazule

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This one is pretty tidy:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ajq2cQXn3ZWAdFJ4YXQtbzRFdmVLYUVnd21Ga2FRWmc&output=html

 

I feel the overall surge nerf was to limit burst in pvp, which it did.. by like 10% :p So you live 1-2 global cooldowns longer now. \o/

 

So all it did was nerfing PVE dps where I heard it's sometimes nice to kill a hardmode/nightmare mode boss BEFORE it actually enrages!

 

Instead of looking at abilities and/or how useless expertise really is when it comes to soaking burst.. they took the easy and lame approach and straight out killed a stat.

 

you are my hero, so looking at that graphe 70 is the new 80 for purge imo (just eyeballed)

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McGarnagle

McGarnagle

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you are my hero, so looking at that graphe 70 is the new 80 for purge imo (just eyeballed)

 

The problem is not the new sweet spot. It's what do you replace surge with? You can choose accuracy or alacrity. You can't switch surge for power (which would be preferable) the way the equipment is set up. So in the end, for dps, you keep the same equipment where you stacked surge since accuracy and alacrity are not as beneficial even at the diminishing return points. As an arsenal merc I don't see the benefit to alacrity for long boss fights (just adds more heat and the procs have are limited to time). I suppose it would help for PVP where heat is not as big of an issue. As for accuracy, I believe continuing to stack surge up to 75% is still better.

Edited by McGarnagle
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Snagulus

Snagulus

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The problem is not the new sweet spot. It's what do you replace surge with? You can choose accuracy or alacrity. You can't switch surge for power (which would be preferable) the way the equipment is set up. So in the end, for dps, you keep the same equipment where you stacked surge since accuracy and alacrity are not as beneficial even at the diminishing return points. As an arsenal merc I don't see the benefit to alacrity for long boss fights (just adds more heat and the procs have are limited to time). I suppose it would help for PVP where heat is not as big of an issue. As for accuracy, I believe continuing to stack surge up to 75% is still better.

 

The issue now is at what values of crit and surge does power overtake crit. Without any sort of math, I'd still say crit to a little over 30%, and then just go power/surge if you've got enough accuracy.

 

The surge nerf doesn't change our gearing very much, its just a nerf.

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Iandayen

Iandayen

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In full rakata gear (except one columi earring for accuracy/crit) - changing out all my enhancements to crit/surge, I have these numbers (self buffed with stim/hp buff).

 

Just gonna do a screenshot - easier (yeah i know i have combat support up was fooling around lol).

 

282 crit rating and 342 surge rating.

 

98/108 accuracy - but keep in mind, on world bosses or nightmare raiding or pvp I have never ever seen a miss/parry/deflect/resist unless somoene in pvp used a cooldown like force shroud

 

 

http://i39.tinypic.com/10z2u5e.jpg

 

This is after I have pulled out crit/surge enhancements from columni and replaced the accuracy/crit in rakata with them.

 

I use the 220 crit/surge trinket and the kinetic damage proc trinket and an attack adrenal (565 power 15 seconds)

Edited by Iandayen
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