Howbadisbad Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes it is definitely rare to hit 5k these days but 3.5-4k is common. Hitting 3.5k-4k on backstab which is 9 sec cooldown on undergeared players is not good compared to what certain other classes can hit when they are specced for burst. I would like to see the cooldown of backstab reduced to 3s with waylay talent and to 6s without talent imo. Operatives shouldn't have massive cooldowns on their bread and butter moves when no one else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlagaNerezza Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Hitting 3.5k-4k on backstab which is 9 sec cooldown on undergeared players is not good compared to what certain other classes can hit when they are specced for burst. I would like to see the cooldown of backstab reduced to 3s with waylay talent and to 6s without talent imo. Operatives shouldn't have massive cooldowns on their bread and butter moves when no one else does. That is about what gs/snipers do with aimed shot. 9 seconds needs to be reduced to match the cooldown for aimed shot. I agree and support that change as a gunslinger who doesn't play operative. That is to long a global cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaovus Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Hitting 3.5k-4k on backstab which is 9 sec cooldown on undergeared players is not good compared to what certain other classes can hit when they are specced for burst. I would like to see the cooldown of backstab reduced to 3s with waylay talent and to 6s without talent imo. Operatives shouldn't have massive cooldowns on their bread and butter moves when no one else does. The thing is though it actually works out quite nicely with our rotation when all is said and done. MadeAllUp (the streamer you speak of) actually completely agrees that operatives are great. You can ask him yourself or read the following: From TwitchTV: "Draekyn: Tired of all the operatives complaining on the forums, they need to learn to play and stop following the whining bandwagon Broadcaster Madeallup: I can't tell if they are trolling or not, Drae. »Every patch there seems to be a thread claiming the class is broken. Of course we have weaknesses." The moment the whining bandwagon realizes this and starts playing their class correctly will be a glorious day. Edited February 15, 2012 by Shaovus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) IMO the biggest issues with operatives now are Energy - We run out way to fast even when using Adrenaline probe and Stim boost - we need Acid blade to cost 0 energy or some other solution, I think having BS have a lower CD would also help as it is 0 energy if you spec into it, giving our rotation more time for energy regen Survivability - We need something else or a lowered CD on Shield probe Gap closer - Why dont we have one? Assassins have one - the reason people used before was our opener..but now that point is moot - So please tell me why we should not get one to put us on par with other classes? People are always saying "Now are are on the same lvl as other classes" referring to the nerf - I actually prefer the new play style so that is fine - but if you are going to say that you have to be fair and say since we no longer have that opening burst we should have a gap closer like every other DPS class - it would be best for us to have a gap closer/maker as well because you need to get away and get out of combat sometimes I had an easy solution to this - make an ability that lets us "sprint" it would work just like a wz buff....easy - put it on the same CD other classes have - lets us get away if needed or close the gap.... Edited February 15, 2012 by Torn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The thing is though it actually works out quite nicely with our rotation when all is said and done. MadeAllUp (the streamer you speak of) actually completely agrees that operatives are great. You can ask him yourself or read the following: From TwitchTV: "Draekyn: Tired of all the operatives complaining on the forums, they need to learn to play and stop following the whining bandwagon Broadcaster Madeallup: I can't tell if they are trolling or not, Drae. »Every patch there seems to be a thread claiming the class is broken. Of course we have weaknesses." The moment the whining bandwagon realizes this and starts playing their class correctly will be a glorious day. Just because they play Operative well doesn't mean they are just as good as any other class. Geb almost consistently cherry picks on his stream which is not representative of how the class can help his team. He does well while he is 1v1ing people, but just succeeding in a warzone is irrelevant. Balance is what you can offer your team, and other classes can offer more than the Operative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Just because they play Operative well doesn't mean they are just as good as any other class. Geb almost consistently cherry picks on his stream which is not representative of how the class can help his team. He does well while he is 1v1ing people, but just succeeding in a warzone is irrelevant. Balance is what you can offer your team, and other classes can offer more than the Operative. No class concerns me more on my 650 Valor Healer Sorc than a good Operative that assists and times his opener well on me--or one of my teamates that I assumed I had enough time to heal back up. Opening up on me or an ally by himself that is at full HP is foolish in organized PvP. But if that person waits 5 seconds until after the Marauder charges me and breaks my bubble, it can cause a lot of hurt and likely death if me or my teammates don't react quick enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 No class concerns me more on my 650 Valor Healer Sorc than a good Operative that assists and times his opener well on me--or one of my teamates that I assumed I had enough time to heal back up. Opening up on me or an ally by himself that is at full HP is foolish in organized PvP. But if that person waits 5 seconds until after the Marauder charges me and breaks my bubble, it can cause a lot of hurt and likely death if me or my teammates don't react quick enough. So how can any other class with cc/burst not preform this tactic? (Assassin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 So how can any other class with cc/burst not preform this tactic? (Assassin) 1- Outside of Assassins, all of the other classes you AND your teammates can see coming. This is huge for healers that have an ounce of situational awareness, rather than those that watch party frames like a PvE raid or something. I can try to position myself to avoid these enemies, as well as knowing to save certain cooldowns that might be needed for my own survivability. For example-- I have a Marauder that is attacking two enemies and he's at 75%, and a Sniper involved that is by untarged at 60%. I'm going to focus most of my healing into the Marauder because he appears in greater danger. If there was another target involved that was visible and positioning to attack the Sniper, I can account for that easier than an Ops bursting him down quick enough to take him solo, or with a quick target swap by the other team. 2- In regards to your (Assassin) -- Operatives just do more DPS and are much more worrysome to me, as a healer. I'm significantly less worried about an Assassin opening up on myself or an ally than a similarly geared Operative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jomps Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 1- Outside of Assassins, all of the other classes you AND your teammates can see coming. This is huge for healers that have an ounce of situational awareness, rather than those that watch party frames like a PvE raid or something. I can try to position myself to avoid these enemies, as well as knowing to save certain cooldowns that might be needed for my own survivability. For example-- I have a Marauder that is attacking two enemies and he's at 75%, and a Sniper involved that is by untarged at 60%. I'm going to focus most of my healing into the Marauder because he appears in greater danger. If there was another target involved that was visible and positioning to attack the Sniper, I can account for that easier than an Ops bursting him down quick enough to take him solo, or with a quick target swap by the other team. 2- In regards to your (Assassin) -- Operatives just do more DPS and are much more worrysome to me, as a healer. I'm significantly less worried about an Assassin opening up on myself or an ally than a similarly geared Operative. Now if all whiny operatives would read this. We bring great tactical advance in the match. And as this healer said, we are more troublesome. We have the best tools to dominate/pester our target. And don't say flashbang is worthless because of dots, just don't use them before. If you just need to interupt a cast it's just perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaearth Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Now if all whiny operatives would read this. We bring great tactical advance in the match. And as this healer said, we are more troublesome. We have the best tools to dominate/pester our target. And don't say flashbang is worthless because of dots, just don't use them before. If you just need to interupt a cast it's just perfect. You didn't read between the lines. It isn't our tools or our damage that makes us "worrysome". It's more the effect of trying to anticipate a ghost jumping you or a teammate at an inopportune moment. What he fails to mention is the fact that ranged classes and marauders can do the same to an extent, and every melee DPS can do the same once there's someone on the target to keep them from escaping - note how his original post, as well as his examples, specifically refer to Operatives assisting kills or attacking targets already low on hp (in other words, someone is or was recently there and could have kept the target from escaping). Heck, he even admits the Operative needs to be assisting someone or jumping him or an ally when he's low on hp to do any real damage: No class concerns me more on my 650 Valor Healer Sorc than a good Operative that assists and times his opener well on me--or one of my teamates that I assumed I had enough time to heal back up. Opening up on me or an ally by himself that is at full HP is foolish in organized PvP. But if that person waits 5 seconds until after the Marauder charges me and breaks my bubble, it can cause a lot of hurt and likely death if me or my teammates don't react quick enough. I fail to see how an Operative working with other teammates for kills is all that better than what every other DPS can do... And if the non-Operative DPS isn't lol-bad, they can even use blind spots in the terrain or fake their target to, you know, keep from being a predictable tool. And on top of all that, their DPS doesn't rely purely on their opener so they can keep up pressure if the burst fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) 1- Outside of Assassins, all of the other classes you AND your teammates can see coming. This is huge for healers that have an ounce of situational awareness, rather than those that watch party frames like a PvE raid or something. I can try to position myself to avoid these enemies, as well as knowing to save certain cooldowns that might be needed for my own survivability. For example-- I have a Marauder that is attacking two enemies and he's at 75%, and a Sniper involved that is by untarged at 60%. I'm going to focus most of my healing into the Marauder because he appears in greater danger. If there was another target involved that was visible and positioning to attack the Sniper, I can account for that easier than an Ops bursting him down quick enough to take him solo, or with a quick target swap by the other team. 2- In regards to your (Assassin) -- Operatives just do more DPS and are much more worrysome to me, as a healer. I'm significantly less worried about an Assassin opening up on myself or an ally than a similarly geared Operative. A marauder can put out way more pressure with their dps + deadly throw + group buffs and are way harder to peel. Once you know an operative is in the fight and you get through the opener, that's it, you can run circles around them while they try to catch up to you or whoever their target is through your ranged slow/stun and the knockback. It doesn't matter if you can't see them coming by the way. Once you know an operative is in the game, it should be second nature to keep an eye out for potential targets (which really are a good target for any class to go for) and protect them as needed. Edited February 16, 2012 by Boreus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geflin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) The operative got the short end of the stick on the last nerf it was too much too fast. Try telling me your more scared of an Operative or a full geared Jug hitting your for 4500+ auto crits. The nerf was ******** and designed to drive the few remaining DPS ops out of the game so we can all be Sith Warriors and Sorcs. So now Operatives are super squish and moderate DPS. Live through the opener and you're good to go while they flail uselessly. Stupid hamfisted Devs making game breaking changes based on videos of 50s killing lowbies when that was even an option. Edited February 16, 2012 by geflin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finetop Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) [ ] Operatives can kill in 4 hits. (At any level, so give me a break like I am to believe anything you L2Pers say.) Edited February 16, 2012 by finetop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 The operative got the short end of the stick on the last nerf it was too much too fast. Try telling me your more scared of an Operative or a full geared Jug hitting your for 4500+ auto crits. The nerf was ******** and designed to drive the few remaining DPS ops out of the game so we can all be Sith Warriors and Sorcs. So now Operatives are super squish and moderate DPS. Live through the opener and you're good to go while they flail uselessly. Stupid hamfisted Devs making game breaking changes based on videos of 50s killing lowbies when that was even an option. Rage Juggs hit for that much with one attack (Smash). Nothing else they have even comes close to breaking 4k. I do agree that Juggs have very good burst though, and Smash hitting a crowd of players makes the other team's healers sad. Also add in better survivability, way way way better mobility, the ability to protect teammates (healers especially) and weaken enemy players through taunts. Stun? Juggs have one too. Aoe CC? Juggs have one too. Oh, and don't forget force push. So, why would anyone play an operative when they can play a Juggernaut instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finetop Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 also add in better survivability, way way way better mobility, the ability to protect teammates (healers especially) and weaken enemy players through taunts. Stun? Juggs have one too. Aoe cc? Juggs have one too. Oh, and don't forget force push. So, why would anyone play an operative when they can play a juggernaut instead? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaipyr Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 [ ] Operatives can kill in 4 hits. (At any level, so give me a break like I am to believe anything you L2Pers say.) ... You're so full of crap that this has to be an obvious troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Ops and Scoundrels are already rare on most servers. I mean seriously, how often do you get one in your team during a WZ? And if you do, do you feel that actually improves your teams chances of succeeding? In no time there won't be any Ops/Scoundrels left except for the ones that have now respeced to healing. There is just no fun in playing a broken class. I'd love all the "QQ" and "L2P"-callers play one and see for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finetop Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) ... You're so full of crap that this has to be an obvious troll. What lvl is your ops? Edited February 16, 2012 by finetop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spero-Mcgee Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 What lvl is your ops? Mine doesn't exist yet ;( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 ... You're so full of crap that this has to be an obvious troll. I can still RNG BM Sorcs if they have their CC breaker on CD before they are able to attack back. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen and I'm still in 3-4 centurion, including MH and OH weapons. DPS is not a problem for Ops, but some more useful mobility might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) A marauder can put out way more pressure with their dps + deadly throw + group buffs and are way harder to peel. Once you know an operative is in the fight and you get through the opener, that's it, you can run circles around them while they try to catch up to you or whoever their target is through your ranged slow/stun and the knockback. It doesn't matter if you can't see them coming by the way. Once you know an operative is in the game, it should be second nature to keep an eye out for potential targets (which really are a good target for any class to go for) and protect them as needed. I mentioned before that Marauders are difficult as well, right up there with Ops. While in theory it should be easier to kite an Operative, in practice isn't not that simple -- I can cleanse Marauder slows, and can't cleanse Operatives. So while I may knock him back (though not that useful outside of Huttball) and Snare him, any Ops with a brain will already have his snare/root on me, and just Evasion out of my Snare and be back on me within 2 seconds. Now...can I completely run away from an Operative away from the fight? Sure, but that is a win for the Operative because I'm no longer healing my team. Edited February 16, 2012 by alanisUDL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynyck Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Operatives are working just fine as this screenshot will attest. Stabbity Stab I'm not going to comment on Operatives as mine is still only L45. But there is something notable in that screenshot. One down from the Operative is Jad'en who is second in damage, but also first in healing, second in kills, and tied for second (three tied for first) in objectives. And only one death. S/he must have mad skilz, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm not going to comment on Operatives as mine is still only L45. But there is something notable in that screenshot. One down from the Operative is Jad'en who is second in damage, but also first in healing, second in kills, and tied for second (three tied for first) in objectives. And only one death. S/he must have mad skilz, eh? Probabaly, since the other sorc/sages didn't do as well as him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finetop Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 2 people got 7 medals, this is underaverage if you ask me. I wouldn't read into this too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) My operative rarely dies in warzones (most is usually 2 deaths if the other team hates my face), it doesn't exactly make operative is fine, I just work hard to keep shield probe, kolto probes and surgical droids cycled. As healer, I usually top healing if there isn't a healing sorc around, and usualy break 75K damage mostly because of corrosive grenade. Edited February 16, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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