battlemaster armor: needs buff

[Nukor]

I feel that BM gear should stay as-is or have the stats lowered to match centurion gear and make a stronger visual difference between the two sets.

 

Having a large stat difference with BM gear will only add to player frustration as a whole, unless RNG is removed from the gearing process and replaced with something that is steady and measurable.

[adrenalinee]

Hopefully the rated battleground system (which has already been announced for 1.2) will not be about handing lout "loots to skilled players".

 

 

Who's definition is this of "skill" I've seen this term thrown around in the MMO genre for years, typically by the supaleet PvP crowd. What does it actually mean? Twitch, strategy, character design planning? Please note that I actually agree with you, I think what WoW did to the PvP community as evidenced in games like this is frankly tragic. PvP as nothing but a gear grind is pretty sad to me, given what it has meant in the past.

 

 

I don't really know what about the system makes you feel it is for "casuals" and there are few words I disdain in MMO play like "hardcore". There are actually plenty of games dedicated to the "hardcore PvP" crowd, unfortunately they've kicked every one of them to the curb in the never-ending search for the next big game. I have some hope for SWTOR's PvP in the long term, the problem is that we don't all want/expect the same thing. Ilum is a really good example of the reality that not everyone wants or likes open world PvP. Yes the zone is horribly flawed at the moment, but lots of the complaints about it on the boards are at their core complaints about people not liking the idea of open world PvP.

 

Neither PvE gear nor PvP gear has anything to do with "most skilled" in my opinion, of course your definition may vary. All you have to do in either PvE or PvP to get the best gear is be most willing to grind. Repetition does not equate aiblity.

 

Skill is defined by the ability of a player, matched with another player with only their brains and twitch (in a video game) to defeat another.

 

It certainly is not defined by which stat on a piece of gear they have. For example, the objective of Shadowbane was to kill other players, taunt them, take their cities. This involved coordination, leadership, and mastering of individual skills as well. It also contained diplomacy (another type of skillset) but they all related to the game at hand.

 

You can't have crap players among your group. In Warzones, I can go in against whom I know to be a good opposing player (on an alt) and simply destroy him with about losing 15% of my hp. This isn't skill. This is called my gear is much better than his because I can't do this to his main.

 

In arenas/rated, the highest level of players all wear similar gear. In fact, some players are so "skilled" that they are not yet geared yet and still perform well. I know this from Rated in WoW. Those types of players will be good at any type of PvP game, including the hardcore.

 

BY casuals, I am defining that as a group of players who can attain the same gear as a group that dedicates/cares about only the PvP aspect of the game.

[Jestunhi]

GEAR progression based games, once again, are NOT PvP games. Shadowbane is a PvP game.

 

Literally interpreting Player vs Player via a dictionary doesn't make it true in reality. The endgame of PvP is very simple: Be better than the other player. In order to keep the community inspired to do that, make it so there's risks. WoW PvP/Arena PvP and this games are both not real PvP games. They are simply gear progression based games where everyone has equal shots at getting "good" pvp gear. This is why there needs to be a tier of the best PvP gear and by a good amount.

 

Sorry, I should have trimmed the quote in my post.

 

I 100% agree that this is not a pvp game. There have been some good pvp MMOs and some included gear / items which effected the outcomes (pre-Trammel UO springs to mind). But this isn't one of them.

 

However I stand by my dispute or your vision of pvp. In this game I strive to be better than the other player. Yes my gear gives me an advantage but one of your complaints is that everyone has an equal shot at getting "good" gear so soon enough the gear will be a moot point and skill will be the only decider.

 

Until then, gear plays its part in deciding the outcome, but it's far from the only thing that matters.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Jestunhi

[adrenalinee]

Sorry, I should have trimmed the quote in my post.

 

I 100% agree that this is not a pvp game. There have been some good pvp MMOs and some included gear / items which effected the outcomes (UO springs to mind). But this isn't one of them.

 

However I stand by my dispute or your vision of pvp. In this game I strive to be better than the other player. Yes my gear gives me an advantage but one of your complaints is that everyone has an equal shot at getting "good" gear so soon enough the gear will be a moot point and skill will be the only decider.

 

Until then, gear plays its part in deciding the outcome, but it's far from the only thing which matters.

 

Again, I never disputed who the PvPers are. You may be a real solid PvPer. I am disputing the throwing around of the words "World PvP" and calling Warzones real PvP. But that is neither here nor there. I am simply preaching that given our circumstances, there needs to be a separation, so to speak, created in order to segregate the casuals from those that truly are about PvP. In other words, from Cent -> BM is what we need from Champion -> "pick a name".

 

Cent and BM disparity is noticeable. Champion to next tier (rated tier of loot) needs to be. Cent -> new set should be hugely discerning. Believe me, this won't affect casuals. I have no need to go into warzones to slaughter people in cent gear to make myself feel better. Again, that's not the goal of real PvPers. The challenge is what drives that aspect. Those that are casuals get to keep their Warzones, their Champion gear, and whatever can be farmed.

Edited February 13, 2012 by adrenalinee

[Eltohan]

Now why on earth would someone wear a mix of such armor if it's worse by the numbers? Probably because the Rakata PvE armor has +5 energy and +15% backstab, which helps you burst down targets more effectively in PvP to warrant the loss of stats. Yes, the PvE set bonus is arguably a lot better than whatever the PvP set bonus is for the purpose of PvP

That is one big oversee fail by bioware. Too bad marauders have only defensive lolbonus sets

 

WTB decent bonus sets

[Boarg]

Once again: http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/expertise-breakfast-of-champions/

 

500 to 600 expertise is 1.5%

 

And where else do you think you're going to get 1.5% more damage and 1.5% more damage reduction and 1.5% more healing for 100 points on a well geared character?

 

It's not completely obliterating normal stats, but it's still pretty much best option most of the time. Mixing PvE gear is more about tweaking set bonuses than it is beating out expertise's value.

[Manaruka]

Comparing mercenary gear; champ to BM, the healer set causes you to loose crit and surge due to BM set having NO crit or surge stats on em at all. When this is the most important stats for a Merc healer, why the hell would I switch to the BM gear when alot of the champ gear has these stats on em?

 

The only BM gear that is any good is the ear piece, and x2 implants everything else is crap.

 

The only way to make some of the BM gear anygood it to extract stats from rakata gear and put it into the BM gear, even then its not worth it to do that, just put on the rakata gear.

[Duffer]

Need to be able to get it first...

[SWImara]

Skill is defined by the ability of a player, matched with another player with only their brains and twitch (in a video game) to defeat another.

So this is the definition FPSers and RTSers know and love, but why is it the standard or any more accurate/true than other interpretations of skill. I think that the ideal in MMO skill should be more in line with the WAR style of knowing your class, knowing your enemy and thinking well on your feet is a much more legitimate expression of skill. I'd love to see SWTOR head more in that direction though it requires a great deal of balance I think the game could achieve this. Twitch frankly is meaningless (imo) in MMO PvP generally due to the lack of equity between characters (unless we all play the same 0 stat character and no classes or skills exist) and the lack of collision in most modern MMOs.

 

It certainly is not defined by which stat on a piece of gear they have. For example, the objective of Shadowbane was to kill other players, taunt them, take their cities. This involved coordination, leadership, and mastering of individual skills as well. It also contained diplomacy (another type of skillset) but they all related to the game at hand.

Right but note that at its core Shadowbane was a FFA game so that things like diplomacy ultimately mattered most. Yes of course individual skill mattered but honestly only so much in a GvG (or GvGvG) fight. This is what people loathe in games like SWTOR about open world conflict. Frankly the side who brings more folks and is more organized (ie the zerg) typically wins. Either way this type of play will never really be possible in an MMO under the current style of design because players hate consequence and hate loss. What made Shadowbane amazing was the "permanence" of the game. But as fun as it was burning down an enemy's city and ruining all they'd worked at over the last 24 mos or so, think about how not enjoyable it was for them. This kind of gameplay will basically always be "niche" I love it, you apparently love it, but its not going to fly in a mainstream MMO.

 

You can't have crap players among your group. In Warzones, I can go in against whom I know to be a good opposing player (on an alt) and simply destroy him with about losing 15% of my hp. This isn't skill. This is called my gear is much better than his because I can't do this to his main.

These games reward dedication, your gear is a result of your dedication to your playstyle (PvP) gear should not be everything, but in this type of game design yes gear should be meaningful. That said, Champion gear is not impossible to get, it is essentially the "competitive" tier of PvP gear, a Champ geared player should be able to beat a BM geared player if he/she is more competent.

[Astarica]

That is one big oversee fail by bioware. Too bad marauders have only defensive lolbonus sets

 

WTB decent bonus sets

 

I think the guys saying BM armor is no good are the ones where their PvE set bonus is better for PvP than the PvP set. I'm an Assassin which seems to be reasonably balanced (PvE +15% crit to Thrash, PvP faster Reckless + one more charge). The PvE obviously adds more DPS overall, but Thrash isn't something you burst people down while an extra crit certainly helps a lot even if it's not much in terms of sustained DPS.

 

The Operative PvE set is a particular good example of messed up priorities. +15% crit to backstab is a lot more useful in PvP where a single crit can significantly impact the outcome of a fight compared to PvE against mobs with potentially millions of HPs.

[Astarica]

And where else do you think you're going to get 1.5% more damage and 1.5% more damage reduction and 1.5% more healing for 100 points on a well geared character?

 

It's not completely obliterating normal stats, but it's still pretty much best option most of the time. Mixing PvE gear is more about tweaking set bonuses than it is beating out expertise's value.

 

Two pieces of BM -> Rakata (100 expertise) won't get you 1.5% more damage or even 1.5% HP, and 1.5% damage reduction is way better than 1.5% more HP.

 

Like I say the guys who take the mix are doing it for the set bonuses, whose value cannot be easily computed as a single number. You might do less damage overall but having +15% crit to backstab will let you win a lot of fights you otherwise would not have.

[Laoi]

if you were a real PVP'er, you would be playing this game. You wouldn't be make trash posts on the boards. You wouldn't care about this game which has something labeled PVP but doesn't actually have any PVP in it.

 

the only reason i play this game is cos a) there is no decent daoc shard up atm and b) gw2 aint released yet. just wasting some time eating noobs in this game till one of the above reasons change.

[Solonius]

Its easy.

 

Get Rakata gear and get BM gear.

 

Problem solved.

[ComeAndSee]

Expertise is really a stupid stat. If two people have equal amount than it cancels out the effect.

[Manaruka]

Expertise is really a stupid stat. If two people have equal amount than it cancels out the effect.

 

Unless you are a healer, or being healed then it does matter(somewhat)

[adrenalinee]

So this is the definition FPSers and RTSers know and love, but why is it the standard or any more accurate/true than other interpretations of skill. I think that the ideal in MMO skill should be more in line with the WAR style of knowing your class, knowing your enemy and thinking well on your feet is a much more legitimate expression of skill. I'd love to see SWTOR head more in that direction though it requires a great deal of balance I think the game could achieve this. Twitch frankly is meaningless (imo) in MMO PvP generally due to the lack of equity between characters (unless we all play the same 0 stat character and no classes or skills exist) and the lack of collision in most modern MMOs.

 

Didn't want to quote the whole thing as it will be uber long. However, that said, Shadowbane rewarded the individuals prowess of knowing the game. The use of skills were important in a 1v1 battle, but knowing how and why to spec/customize your character, perhaps the biggest individual factor in the game, was insanely important for a war. The reality of it is that we often won 10 on 60 in Shadowbane due to the game mechanics. Focus fire was heavily rewarded, healing was heavily rewarded, and individual play was heavily limited. It was about teamwork.

 

To address the above, the way this game is designed, it exemplifies individual skills. Players hit "hard." I can pull massive burst in 3 GCDs. I hit hard. You hit hard. So therefore, skill should be the deciding factor, right? In other words, it's a RPS game. My rock counters your scissors. You're about to do this ability, I counter with this, all while weaving in my own offensive abilities. At the same token, given the gear disparities, it almost mitigates the skill involved in defeating an opponent. Make no mistake, this game is built from the ground up on 1v1 encounters and then adding around it. Not the other way around. If that's the case, then as I said earlier, I have no interest in entering Warzones (other than doing my dailies currently) to defeat lesser geared opponents. For the most part, they are already lesser skilled. For the most part, they already don't dedicate the large portion of their time into PvP other than for the shiny purples. So give me an arena where myself and other likeminded folk can battle (with very very little gear disparity) to prove my skill.

 

I know you're not arguing against arena, but I am just speaking generally in a thread that is dedicated to gear and how it plays out in PvP.

[Malice_Nihilim]

First of all, there really isn't a HUGE difference between champ and bm armor. My commando gained about 500 hitpoints going from cent/champ to now bm/champ. I have all battlemaster but gloves, boots, legs. everything else is champ. Even the expertise gain is only like +5 per piece. But that isn't the complaint.

 

My complaint is that pvp armor isn't the best armor for pvp. I'm seeing people in WZ's with 7000 more hitpoints than me. People I've NEVER seen in a wz. So meanwhile I'm valor 65, a full battlemaster, with nearly 100% bm gear some guy that watched a video on youtube on how to beat raid boss now has better gear than me? With better set bonuses. Better dps stats? I've seen assassins with 23k hitpoints. And they hit like trucks even though i've got near 12.5% mitigation in pvp... supposedly. I've seen sorcs with 18k hitpoints. What? even if i stim up I only barely break 17k hitpoints... and I have every endurance bonus in my skill trees. And I wear heavy armor, which doesn't mean diddly-squat in this game since I'd run around naked in my underwear to have a sorc bubble.

 

So basically the best gear for pvp is now rakata gear. Which means more mindless pve'ers having better gear than me in pvp. wow, makes so much sense bioware.

 

We won't bring up the fact that Dungeons have 1 week cool downs, while you can get bags every day. I think the rate you earn gear is nearly the same or better in pvp. Getting Columi is a lot easier, but Rakata takes time, much like BM gear.

[Astarica]

We won't bring up the fact that Dungeons have 1 week cool downs, while you can get bags every day. I think the rate you earn gear is nearly the same or better in pvp. Getting Columi is a lot easier, but Rakata takes time, much like BM gear.

 

Rakata is faster than BM because a new character can be carried to Rakata gear, while no one can carry you to V60. Though if your plan is to get carried you really don't need the gear in either PvE or PvP.

[Beergogglez]

What is this logic? t2>t3 obv ..you should have more endurance in pve obv ..duh

(sarcasm off) srsly tho columni weps have been better than rakata for sometime now ..BM gear actually gives you less endurance ..which i find funny ..that they can't optimize gear

[Vodrin]

First of all, there really isn't a HUGE difference between champ and bm armor. My commando gained about 500 hitpoints going from cent/champ to now bm/champ. I have all battlemaster but gloves, boots, legs. everything else is champ. Even the expertise gain is only like +5 per piece. But that isn't the complaint.

 

My complaint is that pvp armor isn't the best armor for pvp. I'm seeing people in WZ's with 7000 more hitpoints than me. People I've NEVER seen in a wz. So meanwhile I'm valor 65, a full battlemaster, with nearly 100% bm gear some guy that watched a video on youtube on how to beat raid boss now has better gear than me? With better set bonuses. Better dps stats? I've seen assassins with 23k hitpoints. And they hit like trucks even though i've got near 12.5% mitigation in pvp... supposedly. I've seen sorcs with 18k hitpoints. What? even if i stim up I only barely break 17k hitpoints... and I have every endurance bonus in my skill trees. And I wear heavy armor, which doesn't mean diddly-squat in this game since I'd run around naked in my underwear to have a sorc bubble.

 

So basically the best gear for pvp is now rakata gear. Which means more mindless pve'ers having better gear than me in pvp. wow, makes so much sense bioware.

 

I love how these supposed PvPer's get on the forums and ***** about people getting competitive gear through PvE raids. Look if PvE is so mindlessly easy, get 7 of your PvP friends together and do it for the gear. It's not like you have not done other mind numbingly repetitive and simple takes to get you BM gear.

 

Bottom line is that rakatta is not superior to BM for PvP, it's just competitive with it. If you are the great PvPer you want to think you are, you should be able to beat just about anyone with your current gear setup.

 

Maybe the problem is that some of these Rakatta geared players are actually quite good and are just outplaying you.

[Yoritomo]

They don't. the "best gear" is actually hitting the sweet spot in each stat. You can work towards this without pveing (e.g. pulling mods / enhancements from BM gear and buying BoE rating 140 armorings on GTN / trade channel).

Idd.

Correct again.

gear-wise (not method of acquisition) this is correct. However the only unique thing about top tier pve gear compared to top tier pvp gear, aside from the visual, is the armoring / hilt / barrel. These drop as BoE items and can be bought without pveing yourself.

 

I can't believe you think buying from the GTN mods that were obtained in PVE raids counts as PVP only experience.

 

You should be able to buy those mods with comms once you get a certain valor rank or they should be crafted. Only then will your claims be reasonable.

[Nikkiree]

Shhhh!! Don't tell anyone!!

 

At least by our math, a mix of using the PvE stuff with BM stuff > full BM

There is a cutoff

Time to do PvE!!

 

Woooooooott!!!!!!!! ..................................................

..................

..............

................

 

 

 

 

 

 

.................NOT!

/cry

/sadface

/badbioware

[Dreadspectre]

Expertise has diminishing returns.

 

Play smart. Get enough expertise then use pve gear in the other slots (better primary stat & end).

 

Or play stupid, but I don't think BW can patch out stupidity so you're on your own if you choose this.

 

What exactly is stupid about wearing gear that was designed for PvP...in PvP? Is it our fault BW can't design gear sets to be only competitive in their respective environments?

 

PvE gear should not end up being a better choice, -ever-, for PvP. Even if only a few pieces. The only time I can think of it being that way is for trinkets and possibly weapons. The armor itself though? No, that's just a blatant fail at design.

[ComeAndSee]

BM gear isn't an upgrade when you have to use the same mods from your Champion Gear.

[Vodrin]

Rakata is faster than BM because a new character can be carried to Rakata gear, while no one can carry you to V60. Though if your plan is to get carried you really don't need the gear in either PvE or PvP.

 

This is just completely false. When is the last time you tried to carry an ungeared character through a NM mode op? It's very difficult to do, and most guilds simply would not do it.

 

Far easier to carry an ungeared character to ilum and let him simply tag targets for high valor gain. Hell, it's easier to carry a noob through a wz than a NM mode op.