Juggernaut - Just how "easy" is it compared to Marauder? WoW warrior?

[belialle]

I'm at a point now where I'm ready to choose an AC for my warrior, and I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger.

 

Initially, I thought I would choose marauder for two reasons:

 

1. I have heard that it is the most like the arms warrior in WoW

2. It's allegedly one of the more difficult classes to play effectively in PvP. I want a challenge. The bigger the challenge, the better.

 

The trouble is.....I do like tanking. More specifically, I liked my protection warrior in WoW. I hated the pally and DK tank specs because they just felt so boring to me (especially the paladin). They were just mind-numbing to me. For PvP I loved my Arms Warrior, at least before they started dumbing it down so much. From what I've read, a lot of people seem to think that marauder feels a lot like an arms warrior. Is this just because of the healing debuff, or what? Is there more to it than just that?

 

I normally dislike the dual wield aesthetic, but I think I can learn to live with it if the class feels like an Arms Warrior despite being a dual wielder. The more I read on the matter, the more indecisive I feel. Some people say that marauder isn't really like Arms at all. They say it's more like a rogue without stealth. Others say that it's more like a fury-specced warrior, but do they just say that because of the dual wielding? I never liked Fury all that much.

 

But....as I said before, I'm looking for a class that's fairly challenging and interesting to play. I would hate to roll a Juggernaut only to find out that it's just as boring as paladin was. I loved my warriors. I had several at level cap in WoW, and they were all Arms/Prot. I had something like 40 keybinds for each spec. I don't want to play a class that's just a 3-button wonder on a strict rotation.

 

Here are some of my favorite things about my WoW warriors:

 

• Charge
  
• Mobility in general - A decent flag carrier, even in Arms spec
  
• Excellent burst damage in PvP -- a great healer killer
  
• Lots of keybinds and good situational CDs to make the class interesting to play
  
• Tanking
  

 

I'm mostly planning to PvP. I'm not all that interested in PvE anymore.

 

Are there any former Arms/Prot warriors out there with some good insight on how these two advanced classes compare? Also, is the marauder class actually challenging....or is that just something people like to say so they can feel special about playing one?

Edited February 13, 2012 by belialle

[Scellestus]

Take my view with a grain of salt..

 

Im only lvl 32 on my jugg, he is pretty fun to play, but i have a 50 shadow and it has alot more keybinds then my jugg ever will. From what i hear of marauder it sounds like it is comparable to shadow/assassin in keybind counts, and sounds even more challenging to play.

 

I will say however that the jugg does have most of the things you listed, just isn't as challenging as u might hope.

 

The jugg class gets 2 cooldowns and a 3rd from the tank tree.

 

-The tank tree is pretty straight forward, but most of it is pretty simple and unexciting.

 

-The Vengeance tree has some interesting talents, bottom half of the tree has some nice things for PvP. Bleeds in this tree are a little lackluster.

 

-The Rage tree i feel might be what you are after. It has burst with its one trick, that being every 21 seconds you can line up a burst hit with smash. This tree also gives the warrior a bit more movement in obliterate, and a speed increase that follows.

 

Rage is shared between juggs and marauders but juggs get bigger smash hits due to other talents in other tree's i believe, and they wear heavy armor, compared to medium armor.

 

My 2c on what could suite you.

[Scellestus]

I should mention tho, that the classes are alot more complicated compared to wow, so even tho i say jugg doesnt have nearly as many keybinds as a shadow for example, they still have quite a few, and every class has a fair bit of utility. Shadow's have an absolute ton tho.

[belialle]

I should mention tho, that the classes are alot more complicated compared to wow, so even tho i say jugg doesnt have nearly as many keybinds as a shadow for example, they still have quite a few, and every class has a fair bit of utility. Shadow's have an absolute ton tho.

 

Hm. Maybe I'll tank on an inquisitor and have my warrior be a marauder then. I was kind of leaning toward that initially, anyhow. I guess I'll sleep on it. Maybe tomorrow I'll be feeling more decisive. I appreciate the input. :]

Edited February 13, 2012 by belialle

[Hizoka]

maruaders use about double the skills any other class will.

[Irishbrewed]

The maurader is nothing like a warrior in wow, if anything it's a Combat Rogue.

[Quor]

I'm at a point now where I'm ready to choose an AC for my warrior, and I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger.

 

Initially, I thought I would choose marauder for two reasons:

 

1. I have heard that it is the most like the arms warrior in WoW

2. It's allegedly one of the more difficult classes to play effectively in PvP. I want a challenge. The bigger the challenge, the better.

 

The trouble is.....I do like tanking. More specifically, I liked my protection warrior in WoW. I hated the pally and DK tank specs because they just felt so boring to me (especially the paladin). They were just mind-numbing to me. For PvP I loved my Arms Warrior, at least before they started dumbing it down so much. From what I've read, a lot of people seem to think that marauder feels a lot like an arms warrior. Is this just because of the healing debuff, or what? Is there more to it than just that?

 

I normally dislike the dual wield aesthetic, but I think I can learn to live with it if the class feels like an Arms Warrior despite being a dual wielder. The more I read on the matter, the more indecisive I feel. Some people say that marauder isn't really like Arms at all. They say it's more like a rogue without stealth. Others say that it's more like a fury-specced warrior, but do they just say that because of the dual wielding? I never liked Fury all that much.

 

But....as I said before, I'm looking for a class that's fairly challenging and interesting to play. I would hate to roll a Juggernaut only to find out that it's just as boring as paladin was. I loved my warriors. I had several at level cap in WoW, and they were all Arms/Prot. I had something like 40 keybinds for each spec. I don't want to play a class that's just a 3-button wonder on a strict rotation.

 

Here are some of my favorite things about my WoW warriors:

 

• Charge
  
• Mobility in general - A decent flag carrier, even in Arms spec
  
• Excellent burst damage in PvP -- a great healer killer
  
• Lots of keybinds and good situational CDs to make the class interesting to play
  
• Tanking
  

 

I'm mostly planning to PvP. I'm not all that interested in PvE anymore.

 

Are there any former Arms/Prot warriors out there with some good insight on how these two advanced classes compare? Also, is the marauder class actually challenging....or is that just something people like to say so they can feel special about playing one?

 

Marauder/Sentinel are both quite challenging. Took me about 35 levels before I got the "feel" for the class right.

 

Juggernaut is challenging as well, but in a different way. When you hit 50 you get an ability called "Intercede" which is like Intervene in spirit, but WAY better in practice; instead of soaking a single hit, you put a -20% damage taken buff on a friendly target while leaping to them. It's an amazing mobility tool, and can be talented via a deep Vengeance talent to apply the buff to you.

 

I've had a number of fights with a Sorc healer friend of mine where it was literally him and I versus the world (or so it seemed anyway). Defending a door on Voidstar with 4-5 guys on us, Interceding to him to buff us both against damage, switching off my guard as a Trooper aoe's us, charging to that Trooper, snaring them, then shoving them out of range with push, running back to my friend, hitting my aoe fear, choking the one guy who broke the fear so my friend can get a big heal off, hitting my aoe taunt for a big damage debuff on everyone once the fear wears off....

 

It's challenging, but instead of a "How do I optimize my rotation and combat uptime?" challenge it's more of a "How do I keep myself and my allies alive while also disrupting enemy action?"

 

The biggest boon a Jugg brings to pvp is the ability to Guard someone. The difference between a skilled Jugg and an unskilled one is that the skilled Jugg will be keeping an eye on his allies, swapping guard as needed to lessen the effect of focus fire while tossing out control as necessary. Where you go from there depends on your spec. Rage will be best suited to find a clump of guys and use Smash to overwhelm healer ability to compensate for all that damage. Vengeance can deal decent DPS in tank stance while retaining the ability to swap to Shien form and really put out some single target hurt. Immortal has poopy damage compared to full Rage or Vengeance, but makes up for it with amazing control. All three are quite viable in pvp and pve.

[krimpatulbb]

The maurader is nothing like a warrior in wow, if anything it's a Combat Rogue.

 

this ^

[Irishbrewed]

this ^

 

Reason I say maurader is much more comparable to a combat rogue is because of the medium armor, the defensive CDs needed to sustain damage, the duel wielding swash buckler style. The in and out combat style. Where as if you don't have a healer you really get in on targets and can burst then get out to stay from being focused by pew pewers. Plus the in combat stealth. And it plays at a fast pace with the speed buffs...

[JediKabuto]

Juggernaut is more like WoW Warrior, yes. Tanking wise, Immortal spec plays sort of like Prot but it's 'worse' to play. If you played your Prot warrior properly you will see that Juggernaut is just not as fast and fluid in execution.

 

This is partly class design but Juggernaut suffers badly from animation glitches and ability delay. Many times you have to wait for animations to finish before you can push a button. Getting parry locked is hilarious and sad at the same time.

 

Imagine your WoW Prot warrior had no shock wave and shield slam had a 1 minute cooldown. That's basically what Juggernaut feels like.

Edited February 13, 2012 by JediKabuto

[Irishbrewed]

Juggernaut is more like WoW Warrior, yes. Tanking wise, Immortal spec plays sort of like Prot but it's 'worse' to play. If you played your Prot warrior properly you will see that Juggernaut is just not as fast and fluid in execution.

 

This is partly class design but Juggernaut suffers badly from animation glitches and ability delay. Many times you have to wait for animations to finish before you can push a button. Getting parry locked is hilarious and sad at the same time.

 

Imagine your WoW Prot warrior had no shock wave and shield slam had a 1 minute cooldown. That's basically what Juggernaut feels like.

 

You hit the nail on the head. FLUIDITY! Both ACs suffer from this. Because just like you accurately pointed out, the Animations and delays. I am no programmer or designer, but I can tell you just from my umpteen hours of play the Maurader feels very clunky. Which I think hurts the class, from an enjoyment standpoint. Now I think they can do some technical things to fix it, such as delay which has improved since launch, but some of the abilities like obliterate or rupture, or annihilate or smash or vicious slash or ravage will always suffer from Long animations which I think is the basis for the lack of fluid movements and more jerky and clunky style of play...

 

I know this doesn't ruin the class but just a personal preference for pvp is fluidity for me. The feel so to speak...

Edited February 13, 2012 by Irishbrewed

[DiLune]

Not sure if the WoW Warrior had an equivalent of Endure Pain where it give you extra HP but then took it away, to the point you could have gotten a lot of healing but could still end up dead if it wore off at the wrong time.

[Irishbrewed]

Not sure if the WoW Warrior had an equivalent of Endure Pain where it give you extra HP but then took it away, to the point you could have gotten a lot of healing but could still end up dead if it wore off at the wrong time.

 

Yeah last stand and rally cry

[Nemmar]

I dont know what some people are on about, but juggernaut vengence spec feels very fluid.

I didnt try the tanking spec and the Rage spec revolves around a 9 sec cooldown ability - smash.

 

I only played marauder until lvl 20. I had the same dilemma but after playing juggy to the same level i could tell wich one i liked best.

 

I do hear marauders are difficult at high level but i wouldnt know. I do know that none of WoW's classes is comparable to SWOTOR's. SWTOR's are all more complex to play but utterly more enjoyable and rewarding.

 

Just wish i had more skill slots on the bottom bars for all the skills i need.

[Irishbrewed]

I dont know what some people are on about, but juggernaut vengence spec feels very fluid.

I didnt try the tanking spec and the Rage spec revolves around a 9 sec cooldown ability - smash.

 

I only played marauder until lvl 20. I had the same dilemma but after playing juggy to the same level i could tell wich one i liked best.

 

I do hear marauders are difficult at high level but i wouldnt know. I do know that none of WoW's classes is comparable to SWOTOR's. SWTOR's are all more complex to play but utterly more enjoyable and rewarding.

 

Just wish i had more skill slots on the bottom bars for all the skills i need.

 

I'm not saying your wrong this is simply our two opinions, but just wondering if you played a warrior in wow? I'm also not saying there warrior is better then swtors (I sub to both games) I just prefer what u think is the more fluid style warrior. I don't have a jug tho. Just maurader.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Irishbrewed

[dutch-master]

If you played your Prot warrior properly you will see that Juggernaut is just not as fast and fluid in execution.

 

Imagine all the "expert" PvP players that cry for SJ/SS nerfs in Huttball. Sickening....

 

That said, I've got both and they are both fun, in different ways. The Marauder makes a lot more DPS than the Juggernaut. Then again it is squishier, and dies more often.

 

A good healer can negate an Annihilation Marauder by enough that they will die fairly quickly. At least if I'm healing and their target is on my teamspeak. Purging their DoTs can be really annoying and takes away their auto heals.

 

Where a Juggernaut is the professional harassment artist IMO. They generally make life hard for everyone around them. AoE taunts & Guard come to mind. Force charging and Interceding are really usefull in huttball. And force push refreshes your force charge.

[Anbokr]

I don't know, I gotta say I feel like a brute force warrior on my marauder; just jumping dudes and dropping them. Yeah, you gotta press defensive cool downs, but when you do, you get a lot of mitigation. I feel like a warrior (also have the only mortal strike in the game) with vanish. The marauder is not comparable to a rogue aside from the dual wielding; we don't stealth kill and we don't stunlock. The playstyle is based around charge, slows, and burst--similar to WoW warriors.

[DonLocke]

The main difference between Marauders and Arms warriors is the fact that we have medium armor IMO. With my arms warrior NOTHING stood in your way when you charged. Pressure the lock and the mage and bingo you survive. Marauders are more picky choosy, hence the combat rogue reference. It terms of FEEL they are comparable but not the same, if anything you Think more with Marauder because you know that you can die quickly....Get your bleeds up fools.

[PanikSpreder]

From my experience a Juggernaut is more like an old-school Arms Warrior and Mara is more like a Combat Rogue.

 

Skill-wise, the Mara is slightly harder, but only slighty. Some people claim that Jugg's cant DPS, but that is most likely a L2P issue as I have none on my DPS Jug (my main now).

 

DPS-wise, they seem on par. At least pre-50 I cant tell the difference.

 

The fun-factor is much higher on the Jug for the simple reason that we get Force Choke and Force Push. Both in PvP and PvE it is some hilariously good skills.

 

But thats just my oppinion

[Rhinzual]

Imagine all the "expert" PvP players that cry for SJ/SS nerfs in Huttball. Sickening....

 

That said, I've got both and they are both fun, in different ways. The Marauder makes a lot more DPS than the Juggernaut. Then again it is squishier, and dies more often.

 

A good healer can negate an Annihilation Marauder by enough that they will die fairly quickly. At least if I'm healing and their target is on my teamspeak. Purging their DoTs can be really annoying and takes away their auto heals.

 

Where a Juggernaut is the professional harassment artist IMO. They generally make life hard for everyone around them. AoE taunts & Guard come to mind. Force charging and Interceding are really usefull in huttball. And force push refreshes your force charge.

 

I'd rather have force pull.

[Ezzem]

I do know that none of WoW's classes is comparable to SWOTOR's. SWTOR's are all more complex to play but utterly more enjoyable and rewarding..

 

Wait what? Swtor classes are at vanilla WoW level as far as complexity goes. My main is a Marauder (annihalation) the complexity compared to a sub rogue is laughable in pvp.

[belialle]

Wait what? Swtor classes are at vanilla WoW level as far as complexity goes. My main is a Marauder (annihalation) the complexity compared to a sub rogue is laughable in pvp.

 

So you're saying that marauder doesn't hold up to the modern day sub rogue, as far as complexity is concerned? Why do people say it's so hard then? I don't get it. What is it that makes the class as challenging as people say?

 

 

From my experience a Juggernaut is more like an old-school Arms Warrior and Mara is more like a Combat Rogue.

 

Skill-wise, the Mara is slightly harder, but only slighty. Some people claim that Jugg's cant DPS, but that is most likely a L2P issue as I have none on my DPS Jug (my main now).

 

This is interesting to me, too. An old-school Arms feel is probably close to what I'm aiming for, when all is said and done. I always preferred sub rogue to combat, anyhow. I have an operative, but it doesn't have the depth that the sub rogue has. Hopefully that's something that will come with time. The operative healing spec is pretty fun though.

 

I wonder what exactly it is about marauder that makes it "harder" than juggernaut. Does anyone have any information on this? As long as juggernaut isn't so easy that it's boring to play, I think I'd be content.

 

Anyhow, I really appreciate all various points of views people have posted in this thread. Thanks very much for taking the time to post here, everyone! I keep wavering back and forth. AAAAAAAH.

Edited February 14, 2012 by belialle

[DonLocke]

I think boring comes from how you play any character. I would have fun running around and force pushing people off of stuff.. How you play will make your fun.

Do what you want to do. Level both to 25 and see which you like more.

[Elyx]

I played warriors in WoW since late vanilla (shortly before AQ release). raided, tanked, DPS'd...did it all. played plenty of other classes (who hasn't), but Always came back to the warrior. Also played many other MMO's too btw. My last one before this was LotRO (wow cat sorta killed it for me...I tried really. but im a vanilla/bc guy).

 

while I'm not a big fan of saying they are "like" wow classes (I find them much more entertaining to play then wow classes) I sorta agree with the old school arms warrior feel. not in detail, but in essence. the attacks aren't fury speedy fast, but slow, heavy hitting swinging kind. it certainly can feel clunky if you miss your process, or you don't get a parry proc like you were hoping for. But i don't feel that they are "clunky" in general.

 

much of my enjoyment actually revolves around the animation itself. they're simply fun and a blast to watch! I enjoy the process. the clunky for me involves missed opening for attacks, delays due to cooldown issues (that they are currently working on resolving), and the current visual feedback in the game (which is changing in 1.4).

 

But I personally love my juggs attacks and combos. very fun IMO. starting a maurader to see how it works, and to try out a different spin on the story, but i still go back to my jugg. But I feel they are very different from the WoW classes. But I've played a multitude of MMO's in the past, so perhaps my viewpoint is not as wow oriented as some. I suggest you take the class from a fresh perspective rather then a "does it feel like class X from wow". its like comparing your new GF to the last one...it never really works out.

 

But I think that if you are a fan of heavy armor, in your face smash to the ground feeling kind of class, then you'll like the jugg. they are very "pound their face into the ground"

[belialle]

I played warriors in WoW since late vanilla (shortly before AQ release). raided, tanked, DPS'd...did it all. played plenty of other classes (who hasn't), but Always came back to the warrior. Also played many other MMO's too btw. My last one before this was LotRO (wow cat sorta killed it for me...I tried really. but im a vanilla/bc guy).

 

while I'm not a big fan of saying they are "like" wow classes (I find them much more entertaining to play then wow classes) I sorta agree with the old school arms warrior feel. not in detail, but in essence. the attacks aren't fury speedy fast, but slow, heavy hitting swinging kind. it certainly can feel clunky if you miss your process, or you don't get a parry proc like you were hoping for. But i don't feel that they are "clunky" in general.

 

much of my enjoyment actually revolves around the animation itself. they're simply fun and a blast to watch! I enjoy the process. the clunky for me involves missed opening for attacks, delays due to cooldown issues (that they are currently working on resolving), and the current visual feedback in the game (which is changing in 1.4).

 

But I personally love my juggs attacks and combos. very fun IMO. starting a maurader to see how it works, and to try out a different spin on the story, but i still go back to my jugg. But I feel they are very different from the WoW classes. But I've played a multitude of MMO's in the past, so perhaps my viewpoint is not as wow oriented as some. I suggest you take the class from a fresh perspective rather then a "does it feel like class X from wow". its like comparing your new GF to the last one...it never really works out.

 

But I think that if you are a fan of heavy armor, in your face smash to the ground feeling kind of class, then you'll like the jugg. they are very "pound their face into the ground"

 

I understand what you're saying, and I do think you have a point. The only reason I used WoW as the point of reference is that so many people have played it. I would even guess that most people playing this game have played WoW at some point or other. I was a little worried about framing it this way because some people treat it like a dirty word, but analogies like this are useful for drawing a quick and dirty sketch of something. Using a game that most people have played as a point of reference means that we immediately can draw upon similar shared past experiences to come to a quick understanding, without spending a lot of time on drawn-out descriptions and definitions.

 

Sure, I've played a lot of different MMOs, too. I mean, I'd also like to play something that felt like Ninja in FFXI, but hardly anyone has ever played that game, so no one would know what I'm talking about.....and I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist in any other game, anyhow. I could say that I'd like to play something that feels a bit like a 2H guardian, but not very many people have played LoTRO. Besides, it seems pretty obvious that juggernaut fits that bill better than marauder would, anyhow. :]

 

At any rate, there is clearly some room for analogy here. I've seen a lot of people say here and elsewhere that marauder feels somewhat like a combat rogue. Obviously, this is a different game with different classes, but an analogy like that is enough to convey at least some small sense of what it feels like to play a marauder....to someone who's played a combat rogue, at least.

 

 

 

Anyhow, I think the main thing I was worried about was that I would veer away from marauder, which I was interested in because people say it's "challenging", only to find out that juggernaut is as boring to me as prot paladin was (due to the 3 ability strict rotation playstyle it had for a long time).

Edited February 14, 2012 by belialle