Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Vulgarr]

Did you not see his comparison to the real world, is this one of those your side can do it but pro-lfg isn't allowed, honestly you need to keep me up to date on your forum rules.

why so serious?

 

i made a joke.

 

i didnt flame. take the LFD UI out of your butt for a minute and relax. i promise it wont be the end of the world if they implement it or decide not to.

 

if they do add it though i think there will be people that quit. but thats true if they dont implement it. so it will be just like it is now.

[ferroz]

if it didnt do any good, then why on earth would people attempt to assassinate someones character?

Because they're delusional enough to think that it does do something?

 

you proved my argument for me.

Not really... I'm just pointing out that folks lie about it, not that they actually are able to inconvenience people.

 

In fact, it was after watching someone spend a week running an assassination attempt on a friend that I saw how utterly useless doing that sort of thing is.

 

well, that and repeatedly being trained by that enchanter from comps and having the guild leader ignore it.

 

and a bogus assassination attempt is easy to figure out.

Really?

Person X claims that person Y ninjalooted a rune. Did he? Or did he actually win the roll? Or did some other random person ninjaloot it?

 

Person X claims that person Y trained his group and stole a named. Did he? Or was person X's group tring to leapfrog person Y's group, pulled too many mobs and got themselves killed, and then Person Y's group cleared and pull the named that was in their camp?

 

To be honest, I have no interest in sorting through your drama, so I'm not willing to dig through a bunch of witness statements to find the truth. If someone causes me problems, I put them on ignore. Doing that, even with xserver lfd, I haven't run into more than a handful of problems, and they only happened once.

[darkcerb]

let me define a word that many do not understand because other games have sucked it completely out of their game and people have forgotten the meaning:

 

com·mu·ni·ty

   [kuh-myoo-ni-tee]

noun, plural -ties.

1.

a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.

2.

a locality inhabited by such a group.

3.

a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually preceded by the ): the business community; the community of scholars.

4.

a group of associated nations sharing common interests or a common heritage: the community of Western Europe.

 

 

 

 

Back before the LFD finder came into existence, playing MMO's required you to interact with people on your home server. To actually do anything (other than solo quest) you had to establish a rapport (connection) with individuals in your COMMUNITY (this may be hard to understand still for some of you, but the community i refer to here is YOUR SERVER COMMUNITY), you had to join a guild or make a large number of friends and add them to your friends list.

 

For those of us that work long hours and have limited game time we had to find a guild and friends that were active during our normal play times.

 

Did this take effort? Yes.

 

Was it impossible to find people that played the same time as me? No.

 

Did I find this mythical guild and have friends on my friends list that played the same times as me? Yes.

 

Did it take work? Absolutely.

 

Once we established a camaraderie in game with like minded people from our server community we filled our guilds and friends lists so we could do the things we wanted to do when we wanted to do them with people we trusted. Sometimes though, we needed to invite strangers into our groups, or we had to just form a party completely from trade chat filled with people you were not familiar with.

 

If we came across a stranger that wasn't performing up to standards we would do everything in our power to help them play better and, if time permitted, helped them get the gear they needed to perform better and give constructive criticism. This garnered more in game friends.

 

When we met someone that was a griefer we would inform the server community through trade/global/general chat of the offenders name and what the offender did to warrant an ignore. This, in turn, would make it harder for griefers to get groups and they would end up having to play nice or switch servers. Once you said "so-and-so ninja looted such-and-such" in chat, most people would go ahead and /ignore that person to prevent having to suffer their griefing in future groups.

 

 

This is the community we speak of. One in which strangers help other strangers while making a friend at the same time. To become a close knit community.

 

With the implementation of the LFD cross server tool we have the following to look forward to:

 

Obnoxious criticism: Tank enters group, tells healer "you really suck dude. i refuse to pull until you leave the group". at which time the healer of course refuses and the group falls apart. back in que for another 20 minutes for the dps while the griefer tank gets insta ques to continue griefing.

 

Excessive griefing: Heavy Armor wearer ninjas every piece of armor by rolling need including cloth, people training their party members, and people just being all around rude and obnoxious with ignorant statements about people in the group.

 

Vote to kick exploits: In group with 3 guild mates, do a whole dungeon up to the last boss, but their guildy needs the same item as you off the last boss. You get booted and they invite their guildy, or they just constantly boot the 4th player for lulz and cause that 4th player another 20 minute wait on another que.

 

There will be many people that will que and get a group and expect to be carried because either their gear doesnt meet the requirements, underskilled, they don't know the fights or just lazy and expect the group to carry them.

 

There will be no repercussions for peoples actions, so the same rudeness we see from the safety of anonymous internet trolls will run rampant in the game. /ignore will mean nothing, and our only real power to police our own community will be taken away. Because they have that LFD button and can group anytime they want with people they will never see again.

 

It will also make it almost impossible to meet new people on your home server, because no one will want to pug a group on your home server because why do that when all you have do is click a button and wait.

 

This is but a few things i experienced in wow with LFD.

 

TL/DR: this is exactly what im talking about. you are the people that LFD is for, because its too hard to put a bit of effort into something simple like reading a post or forming a group.

 

 

i posted this yesterday but some people apparently havent seen it due to it being buried.

 

More anecdotal "evidence" that is I'm guessing more truthful then mine?

 

Just so I'm still on the same page with the rules.

 

Punishing low pop servers and those not as social as you because you're terrified that the way that works for you might be challenged is exactly what I'm talking about when I argue with you and those like you.

 

You say get a group, get friends like everyone was handed "Socializing in games 101" and is perfectly fine to let others play times/habits dictate there own.

 

Sorry but that isn't the case anymore if it ever was mmo's have changed.

[ragamer]

Because I don't agree that cross server lfg is the end times incarnate and believe = a larger pool of players = more groups.

 

Yeap... I think this is the problem... You don't understand how a queue system works.

 

 

Last attempt to make you understand...

 

You have 5000 dpsers, 100 tanks and 100 healers...

 

...Can you compare the average waiting time of 1 tank , 1 healer and 1 dpser when an auto party is always made of 1xtank, 1xhealer, 2xdps, If the average dungeon run lasts for 1 hour?

 

I really hope you do... Maybe you will then understand why Devs are forced to be sure that "average run" time is as short as possible with independence of which party is doing it.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ragamer

[darkcerb]

By that logic they should remove tanking and healing from the game since their necessity causes fewer groups to be formed.

 

So that's what reading between the lines means!

[darkcerb]

Yeap... I think this is the problem... You don't understand how a queue system works.

 

 

Last attempt to make you understand...

 

You have 5000 dpsers, 100 tanks and 100 healers...

 

...Can you compare the average waiting time of 1 tank , 1 healer and 1 dpser when an auto party is always made of 1xtank, 1xhealer, 2xdps and If the average dungeon run lasts for 1 hour?

 

I really hope you do... Maybe you will then understand why Devs are forced to be sure that "average run" time is as short as possible with independence of which party is doing it.

 

No sorry, a larger pool may be the same ratio at a basic level but it still means more groups. Assuming of course that very server is identical.

 

Was that not clear enough? Should I add more ellipses?

Edited February 13, 2012 by darkcerb

[Senatsu]

More anecdotal "evidence" that is I'm guessing more truthful then mine?

 

Just so I'm still on the same page with the rules.

 

Punishing low pop servers and those not as social as you because you're terrified that the way that works for you might be challenged is exactly what I'm talking about when I argue with you and those like you.

 

You say get a group, get friends like everyone was handed "Socializing in games 101" and is perfectly fine to let others play times/habits dictate there own.

 

Sorry but that isn't the case anymore if it ever was mmo's have changed.

 

Actually, pro-LFD people are the most ignorant when it comes to this. Anti-LFD people are posting experiences, evidence, fears, solutions and scenarios that has an infinitely high possibility of happening. While the pro-LFD people completely disregard it, by saying it's not "legitimate", because in their point of view, it's not. Even when presented with logic.

If you're not willing to listen to our proof and evidence, why the hell do you expect anyone to listen to yours?

[ragamer]

By that logic they should remove tanking and healing from the game since their necessity causes fewer groups to be formed.

 

Well... That's the 2nd stage of changes...

 

...Or why do you think they have to add dual specs? So the differences between classes are minimal.

 

Because the LFD tool will not fix the problem...

 

...Unless the players themselves balance the roles...

 

...Or it's the 1st time you heard on a general chat: "What's the class most needed on parties?"

 

Obviously social players have been doing this since forever... Without the help of any tool...

 

...Are the solo players that are "forced to group" with solo characters the ones that saturate a given role because they refuse to adapt to the Community they are into.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ragamer

[ferroz]

Why do you want to sit in a queue from anywhere between 10 seconds and 1 hour, instead of spending a few minutes sending out a whisper every now and then to get people for the group?

Because I'd like to get a group in a short while instead of looking for multiple hours and not finding one.

 

I'd especially like to go off and do quests solo on someone, be social in mumble while doing so, and then be social in the group that forms automatically without me having to sit around in fleet.

 

Since you guys appear to be very anti-social I added that "You don't need to talk" bit just for you. You're welcome.

eh, I'm social. I like to talk. I chat in lfd groups in wow all the time. You'd be surprised how often people will chat back if you actually make the effort, instead of just writing them off because "you'll never see them again" ...

[corbanite]

Yeap... I think this is the problem... You don't understand how a queue system works.

 

 

Last attempt to make you understand...

 

You have 5000 dpsers, 100 tanks and 100 healers...

 

...Can you compare the average waiting time of 1 tank , 1 healer and 1 dpser when an auto party is always made of 1xtank, 1xhealer, 2xdps, If the average dungeon run lasts for 1 hour?

 

I really hope you do... Maybe you will then understand why Devs are forced to be sure that "average run" time is as short as possible with independence of which party is doing it.

 

so if you want to get groups very quickly best roll a tank or a healer then rather then wait for a LFD because a LFD will not sort this out.

 

hey.. I guess this is why I have 2 lvl 50 tanks so far in the game and why I don't have any problems with groups and don't want the LFD because I have sorted myself out a guild with people with similar interestes and rolled a class that people want.

 

 

To feel the other side try not grouping with anyone,. rolling on a low pop server... and rolling a DPS then spamming LFG in fellt like this.,. LFG Hammer and see how long it takes you then come back here and QQ about your bad decisions

[Heretiq]

I have no idea who Shae is, but I just picked it because it looked decent.

 

Why do you want to sit in a queue from anywhere between 10 seconds and 1 hour, instead of spending a few minutes sending out a whisper every now and then to get people for the group? You don't need to talk at all besides those whispers and maybe a little "Hai thar" when they enter the group. That's it.

 

Since you guys appear to be very anti-social I added that "You don't need to talk" bit just for you. You're welcome.

 

Seriously - explain this to me. How am I unsocial for wanting a Cross-Server-LFG tool? I don't know about you but I have enough social interaction in my (real) life as it is. I have a job (my coworkers), a girlfriend and my buddies for that. I don't necessarily need it in a video game.

 

Why do you insist on calling everyone who doesn't like your idea of finding a group an anti-social, lonely, lazy jerk?

 

And how is it easier to actively send out a whisper every 2 minutes while standing in the fleet and checking /who instead of just queuing for a dungeon and doing whatever you want until the invite pops up?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Heretiq

[Senatsu]

No sorry, a larger pool may be the same ratio at a basic level but it still means more groups. Assuming of course that very server is identical.

 

Was that not clear enough? Should I add more ellipses?

 

It doesn't just depend on the sheer number of players available, it also depends on the amount of FP instances BW can keep running at the same time. And if you have played WoW as long as me, you will have seen the "Too many instances are currently running" error message when you try to enter a dungeon. It has of course lessened after LFD, but instead of giving you an error message it will add to more queue time.

 

It's a rather small concern, yes, but a concern nonetheless.

[ragamer]

No sorry, a larger pool may be the same ratio at a basic level but it still means more groups

 

Mmmm... I think I don't follow your logic...

 

...You do realize that for the 4800 dpsers waiting for the 100 healers and tanks to finish aren't seeing an increase on the groups they enter into right?

[Introvertus]

Wow. 53 pages and the only legit reason I could find to stand against the huge ammounts of beneficial things a LFG system could bring to the game is something along the lines of:

 

"I'm a veteran SWG player and dislike anything that differs from classic SWG. I want to be punished and have huge repair bills and be forced to play one role and be elite at it because customisation is for idiots and ******* who can't play one role effectively. LFG will hurt the community because it makes the game like wow. Wow is for tards, and I don't like tards. Tards should go back to wow. If 90% of this community is tards, their subs are worth less than mine, because I am in an awesome guild and don't need a LFG tool, so good luck - rest of the community, I don't care about you, because my "community" that I love is a circle of self absorbed elitist *****s who don't need LFG, so why should it be in the game?"

 

I.e. about 2% of the entire SWTOR population.

[darkcerb]

Actually, pro-LFD people are the most ignorant when it comes to this. Anti-LFD people are posting experiences, evidence, fears, solutions and scenarios that has an infinitely high possibility of happening. While the pro-LFD people completely disregard it, by saying it's not "legitimate", because in their point of view, it's not. Even when presented with logic.

If you're not willing to listen to our proof and evidence, why the hell do you expect anyone to listen to yours?

 

Because at every step I have been completely open with the fact that I can count on one hand the amount of negative experiences had with lfg systems. My experiences have been far far more positive then negative.

 

I have had more positive then negative.

 

+ more then -

 

I can't be more plain. If you think I'm lieing then I throw that right back at you, I have no reason whatsoever to believe you jsut like I assume you have no reason to me, so why don't we drop all the anecdotal and just stick to the fact that should this be released by your own admition everyone would use it.

 

And then lets agree that's it's effect's can't be predicted or measured with hard facts unless the game suddenly emptys.

 

And that's all my time folks it's 2.34 am here on central east coast nsw aus.

 

If you want to keep arguing with me just go ahead and go to my post history I've had these conversations over and over again for days.

Edited February 13, 2012 by darkcerb

[ferroz]

Actually, pro-LFD people are the most ignorant when it comes to this.

How so?

 

Anti-LFD people are posting experiences, evidence, fears, solutions and scenarios that has an infinitely high possibility of happening.

I suspect that they're posting experiences that are the result of going from not doing pugs hardly at all to doing pugs; those of us who were primarily pugging in the time leading up to lfd can see that there was no actual change in the way pug groups acted before to after lfd. The people who were primarily doing groups with guildies and friends, and then started pugging with lfd see the difference beween pugging and not pugging, and then incorrectly assign that difference to the lfd tool.

 

 

Calling their posts "evidence" is a real stretch

 

I'll agree that they're posting fears; that's 90% of what they're doing. They're unfounde fears.

 

They aren't posting solutions; nor are the scenarios they are posting all that probable.

 

 

While the pro-LFD people completely disregard it, by saying it's not "legitimate", because in their point of view, it's not.

It's not legitimate because it's a purely based on fear and opinion, not facts.

 

Even when presented with logic.

I await your logic. Edited February 13, 2012 by ferroz

[Vulgarr]

Because they're delusional enough to think that it does do something?

 

Not really... I'm just pointing out that folks lie about it, not that they actually are able to inconvenience people.

 

In fact, it was after watching someone spend a week running an assassination attempt on a friend that I saw how utterly useless doing that sort of thing is.

 

well, that and repeatedly being trained by that enchanter from comps and having the guild leader ignore it.

 

Really?

Person X claims that person Y ninjalooted a rune. Did he? Or did he actually win the roll? Or did some other random person ninjaloot it?

 

Person X claims that person Y trained his group and stole a named. Did he? Or was person X's group tring to leapfrog person Y's group, pulled too many mobs and got themselves killed, and then Person Y's group cleared and pull the named that was in their camp?

 

To be honest, I have no interest in sorting through your drama, so I'm not willing to dig through a bunch of witness statements to find the truth. If someone causes me problems, I put them on ignore. Doing that, even with xserver lfd, I haven't run into more than a handful of problems, and they only happened once.

if your rep didnt matter then you wouldnt have brought up assassination attempts.

 

i have been playing mmos since everquest also and i know for a fact that /ignore and server rep did/does matter on all mmos unless they have a cross server LFD system. it made my experiences more enjoyable because i used the /ignore tool. were their people exploiting? sure, but did they do it in my groups? if they did they would get ignored and that would be the last time i had to deal with that person, ever. with a LFD system that luxury doesnt exist because you come across more people that need to be /ignored than you have space in the list.

 

my point still stands, id rather have the ability to hold people accountable by /ignoring them than i need an automated system that wont speed up anything.

[Senatsu]

Seriously - explain this to me. How am I unsocial for wanting a Cross-Server-LFG tool? I don't know about you but I have enough social interaction in my (real) life as it is. I have a job (my coworkers), a girlfriend and my buddies for that. I don't necessarily need in a video game.

 

Why do you insist on calling everyone who doesn't like your idea of finding a group an anti-social, lonely, lazy jerk?

 

And how is it easier to actively send out a whisper every 2 minutes while standing in the fleet and checking /who instead of just queuing for a dungeon and doing whatever you want until the invite pops up?

 

Then why are you playing an MMO, a game genre built around a social experience?

 

Send out 3 whispers in 5 seconds then. Copy paste it, easy as that. Then you wait a few seconds for a response and you're done. Waiting for a queue that takes much, much, muuuch longer is a waste of time. Unless you actually do something on the side, which in WoW, no one actually does. Most turn their speakers on full, go eat/toilet/smoke/coffee/TV/whatever until they hear a pling and there we go.

[ragamer]

To feel the other side try not grouping with anyone,. rolling on a low pop server... and rolling a DPS then spamming LFG in fellt like this.,. LFG Hammer and see how long it takes you then come back here and QQ about your bad decisions

 

Erm... And what's preventing me to roll a tank or a healer to see the content I so badly want to see?

 

...Do you understand that I'm classifying the players that are able to do this from the ones that don't?

 

And that doesn't matter what system you use the social ones are the ones that get groups more often... And that the net effect of a LFD is extending this effect to the whole playerbase?

 

I can mirror your logic... Have you ever tried to roll a "group friendly" class on a game with a LFD system and check with the character that has to wait? After doing so... Have you ever stop to think on for how long you would be doing the content with a "group friendly" character... Or what will happen when ALL tanks & healers actually "completed" a given tier of content?

Edited February 13, 2012 by ragamer

[Introvertus]

And how is it easier to actively send out a whisper every 2 minutes while standing in the fleet and checking /who instead of just queuing for a dungeon and doing whatever you want until the invite pops up?

 

It isn't - but that's how the game is supposed to be played. If you want to run a dungeon, you have to "work hard" by trying to find a group, and the more difficult the grouping process, the better it is, because then you're just greatful to get a run, rather than whine about getting no loot - if you DO get loot, its like the best thing ever. So yeah, the grouping process is made extremely difficult so that instances are more enjoyable, and people are less likely to leave.

 

Ofc, if someone DCs or leaves suddenly, that's a different matter - but most of the anti-LFGers are in super hardcore guilds that prioritise the game over RL, and will NEVER leave a run for anything. If it takes 12 hours, so be it.

 

That's the point the Anti LFG people are trying to argue.

[Amiracle]

No sorry, a larger pool may be the same ratio at a basic level but it still means more groups. Assuming of course that very server is identical.

 

Was that not clear enough? Should I add more ellipses?

 

 

 

I would argue that most are playing this game as solo from 1-50 because it is very easy to do so and there is no reason to do any group content till you raid.

 

And if you intend to raid most people do that in guilds and do not pug.

 

Sorry but the ease of this game and being able to do the majority of the content solo is the biggest reason why people aren't grouping.

 

2 biggest differences between a single player RPG and a MMO is the need for grouping and time commitment.

 

SWTOR has no need for grouping and the leveling is extremely fast.

 

Just the way of the new single player MMO.

[ferroz]

if your rep didnt matter then you wouldnt have brought up assassination attempts.

No... you can run assisnation attempts on people even though rep doesn't matter. It just means that the people running the attempt think that it matters... Not that it actually matters.

 

i have been playing mmos since everquest also and i know for a fact that /ignore and server rep did/does matter on all mmos unless they have a cross server LFD system.

No, you're convinced that it mattered, but really it didn't. Like I said, the worst of the worst still were in guilds. Some of them were even in the top end game raiding guilds on the server.

 

it made my experiences more enjoyable because i used the /ignore tool.

Certainly; ignoring people can make your experience better. It doesn't affect the people you ignore.

 

were their people exploiting? sure, but did they do it in my groups? if they did they would get ignored and that would be the last time i had to deal with that person, ever. with a LFD system that luxury doesnt exist because you come across more people that need to be /ignored than you have space in the list.

No, I've still got plenty of room on my ignore list in wow.

 

 

my point still stands, id rather have the ability to hold people accountable by /ignoring them than i need an automated system that wont speed up anything.

You can do that whether there's an lfd system or not... So it's not an either/or situation.

[Vulgarr]

More anecdotal "evidence" that is I'm guessing more truthful then mine?

 

Just so I'm still on the same page with the rules.

 

Punishing low pop servers and those not as social as you because you're terrified that the way that works for you might be challenged is exactly what I'm talking about when I argue with you and those like you.

 

You say get a group, get friends like everyone was handed "Socializing in games 101" and is perfectly fine to let others play times/habits dictate there own.

 

Sorry but that isn't the case anymore if it ever was mmo's have changed.

really?

 

because it hasnt changed in TOR. my server is exactly like what i posted above. Mandalore the indominatable. while i leveled i made groups to do heroic areas on worlds. i went back and searched for datacrons the other day and helped some lowbies do their heroic quests.

 

if you have some sort of socialization phobia maybe you should be playing a single player game.

 

just because you are used to a bad community like some other games have only recently gotten (i admit it wasnt the best before LFD but after it came out wow. just wow.), doesnt mean this one is bad. there is a common denominator. if you need to be taught how to play nice, then i can see why you need a LFD.

[Senatsu]

Calling their posts "evidence" is a real stretch

 

Of course it is, since you don't believe it is. Just like religious fanatics. (I hate to bring in religion in this, but it fits the best).

 

I'll agree that they're posting fears; that's 90% of what they're doing. They're unfounde fears.

 

Unfounded? Take a look at WoW from a vanilla player's perspective, a social one, then you can come back and say some ******** like that.

 

They aren't posting solutions; nor are the scenarios they are posting all that probable.

 

Take a good look through the thread. I have seen loads of people tossing out their ideas of compromise between the two, none of which, comes from a LFD supporter.

 

It's not legitimate because it's a purely based on fear and opinion, not facts.

 

The scenarios anti-LFDers are posting, is exactly what has happened to the social experience of WoW.

 

I await your logic.

 

If you don't see it by now, it's too late for you.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Senatsu

[Introvertus]

Then why are you playing an MMO, a game genre built around a social experience?

 

Send out 3 whispers in 5 seconds then. Copy paste it, easy as that. Then you wait a few seconds for a response and you're done. Waiting for a queue that takes much, much, muuuch longer is a waste of time. Unless you actually do something on the side, which in WoW, no one actually does. Most turn their speakers on full, go eat/toilet/smoke/coffee/TV/whatever until they hear a pling and there we go.

 

For me, atm, SWTOR feels like a huge single player game because my server is dead, and it's excrutiating trying to get a group together. A LFG system would allow me to play with other people rather than just rolling alts for the story.

 

Atm, SWTOR is something i play during Rift downtime - but originally i wanted it to be my main game. So far, it just feels like a single player game with PvP.