The Pro-Toggle Thread for same gender content.

[Master-Nala]

Thanks! For most pro-toggle players the issue is they don't want their game to be a statement at all.

 

What statement is being made? That homosexuality exists? That's a fact.

 

I want the toggle because like you said in another post, there is a lot of r/l political argument about the subject,

 

I'm not aware of any serious political argument regarding the existence of same gender relationships.

 

an argument that without a toggle is a gamebreaker for people who don't want to deal with politics in the middle of a video game. Its not saying this side is right or that side is wrong, its saying I just want to play video games and leave this bickering to r/l.

 

Relationships aren't politics.

[Comfterbilly]

I don't get it... so, this is about BioWare adding in the ability to have same-sex relationships in a video game, and how one dude decided that he would be homophobic (but say he wasn't) and ask for a toggle? Which one is pro-toggle, and which one is pro-thisisstupid?

 

If you gave the ability to toggle it off, then you just slap everyone in the face that would enjoy that type of interaction and say "your preferences are yucky, so we get to turn them off if we don't want them". Guess what, that's discrimination. There's no grey area here, that's straight up discrimination. Toggling romantic relationships ALL TOGETHER would be OK, but one "type" is discrimination - and stupid; and also wrong.

 

I don't understand how anyone can't see that? If you had a "toggle" to make all black characters white, or turn interaction with them off completely - would that not be discrimination?

 

You're missing a lot of things there. Straight and LGBT people have requested a toggle, which is just a generic word for being able to select your toon's sexuality on the character screen with a backup menu in the options for fickle-clickers etc. Not every person on either wavelength has said they want to be able to make a perma-selection, but the argument has been made that sexuality is a fixed trait that should be able to be picked like race or gender. Those who are against it often fly in the face of many people, straight or LGBT, simply out of an over-inflated interest in other peoples' games.

[Master-Nala]

You're missing a lot of things there. Straight and LGBT people have requested a toggle, which is just a generic word for being able to select your toon's sexuality on the character screen with a backup menu in the options for fickle-clickers etc. Not every person on either wavelength has said they want to be able to make a perma-selection, but the argument has been made that sexuality is a fixed trait that should be able to be picked like race or gender. Those who are against it often fly in the face of many people, straight or LGBT, simply out of an over-inflated interest in other peoples' games.

 

The sexual orientation of a character can easily be maintained by never selecting a flirt option you don't like. The only reason to block it entirely is because even having the option to engage in homosexual behavior frightens some people. Almost like a phobia. Likewise, if a player using a female consular doesn't want to romance Iresso because he's black, you don't have to. But this idea would be identical to asking for a toggle to block flirt options with black characters. And that wouldn't fly for a minute.

 

Heck if someone had the nerve to ask for it, the thread would last about five minutes at most. It is shameful this has been allowed to continue.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Racheakt]

There's no 'hounding'. More code words. It's just a word [Flirt]. Easily ignored. The only and I mean only reason that any person could want to hide that option away and not any other option is their distaste for even the suggestion of homosexuality in game. One wonders where such an attitude comes from.

 

If it is such a "Small" thing that you say is easily ignored on your screen, then it should be even easier to ignore when it does not appear on someones screen you cannot see correct?

[Aurrelio]

Hi there.

 

After removing a great deal of inappropriate and off-topic content from this thread, it has been re-opened.

 

As a reminder, please review the forum Rules of Conduct if necessary before continuing to discuss this sensitive issue.

 

Please keep in mind that discussion in this thread should be strictly game-related. Please refrain from discussion of real-life morality or politics.

 

Thanks.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Aurrelio

[Wispr]

Originally I was pro-toggle when it came to who I could flirt with and who could flirt back. But as I have fallowed along this thread and gave myself more time to think I'm now firmly against some kind of toggle in the game.

 

The game gives you the choice to either flirt or not to flirt, to welcome or rebuff attention as you play. To me that's just another level of realism.

[ultimateballoon]

I do not believe that a toggle could possibly work.

 

Let's assume that the toggle was added. Say you have the toggle for same sex romance options turned off, and you group with a player that has them turned on. You enter a conversation with a male NPC, and your Male party member chooses the [Flirt] option, and wins the roll. What would happen?

 

I can foresee 3 scenarios;

 

1. Would you see them flirt with the NPC? You haven't shielded yourself from anything.

2. Would you see what you chose for the conversation option, while they see the flirt? How does the rest of the conversation play out? What if you chose to kill the NPC while he didn't? This would be particularly damaging for role-players.

3. Would the toggled player take precedent over the non-toggled player, or vice-versa? Who gets alienated?

 

You can try to avoid seeing any homosexual content all you like, with all the filters you please, but the fact is this is an MMO with multiplayer conversations. You WILL end up seeing it.

 

Bioware is going to upset someone by allowing same gender romances. My advice is, don't be so easily offended.

[AquaSky]

I do not believe that a toggle could possibly work.

 

Let's assume that the toggle was added. Say you have the toggle for same sex romance options turned off, and you group with a player that has them turned on. You enter a conversation with a male NPC, and your Male party member chooses the [Flirt] option, and wins the roll. What would happen?

 

I can foresee 3 scenarios;

 

1. Would you see them flirt with the NPC? You haven't shielded yourself from anything.

2. Would you see what you chose for the conversation option, while they see the flirt? How does the rest of the conversation play out? What if you chose to kill the NPC while he didn't? This would be particularly damaging for role-players.

3. Would the toggled player take precedent over the non-toggled player, or vice-versa? Who gets alienated?

 

You can try to avoid seeing any homosexual content all you like, with all the filters you please, but the fact is this is an MMO with multiplayer conversations. You WILL end up seeing it.

 

Bioware is going to upset someone by allowing same gender romances. My advice is, don't be so easily offended.

 

If someone had a toggle implemented, it would likely give them the same three options that a s/s NPC does right now, three non-flirts. It's no different than grouping with my husband; when he wins the roll, he gets to choose his response, flirt or otherwise. The majority of the toggle advocates seem to want to have only one gender prompt the Flirt options for that character, not to remove homosexuality from the game.

 

Frankly, I don't care much what others choose in multiplayer conversations (although I'm all for giving the Ambassador to the Imps). Most of the groups I see are for Heroics and Flashpoints anyhow, and since none of the ones I've encountered so far have any Flirt options at all, I don't think it would be much of an issue with grouping.

Edited February 24, 2012 by AquaSky

[Helig]

I am pro-toggle, but I propose a 4-position dropbox, containing the "None", "Straight", "homosexual" and "both" options. I think that would be fair for everyone.

[dahnu]

I'd say a toggle is unnecessary. Just like all the other dialogue choices: If you don't want you character to say them, don't choose them.

Don't want your Sith Sorcerer to be a goody two shoes? Don't pick the goody two shoes answer. Don't want you Sith Sorcerer to flirt with men? Don't pick the flirt answer.

 

OR make everything toggleable that someone doesn't like. Voilent answers, red hair, black skin...

Sorry people, but if someone doesn't want to be remembered that homosexuality exists, they shouldn't leave their cosy little community and venture into the wide, wide world where many things are not to our liking.

[SithCliff]

Don't want your Sith Sorcerer to be a goody two shoes? Don't pick the goody two shoes answer. Don't want you Sith Sorcerer to flirt with men? Don't pick the flirt answer.

 

But what if your choices are [Goody] [Flirt] [Good, affection from companion]?

 

And you don't want any of them? Sure it makes for an awkward realistic moment, but you don't know what rabbit hole it will take your character down. I think that is what everyone is worried about, where you are trying to develope your character a certain way, and then you are not given the option to do so.

 

They have said this is our game. They are developing it for us, to interact with us. So, why would they not want this game to be more interactive with its players in a way the players want it to be?

[dahnu]

I know what you mean. My BH gets way to few "What's in it for me?" options...

 

There should always be a neutral option, me thinks.

[Master-Nala]

But what if your choices are [Goody] [Flirt] [Good, affection from companion]?

 

False dilemma. I am aware of choices that give light side or dark side points with no option for a neutral choice, but I've never seen a [Flirt] option that doesn't have at least two other options that are materially different.

 

When you play this game you accept that your character will have the option to commit murder. Not fight armed combatants, I mean murder people. You always have the option not to murder innocents. But there's no toggle that would allow you to say, "never have the option to murder anyone" presented.

 

What is being suggested here is that players must be given the option to never see any option that even SUGGESTS that your character (not the player) wishes to have a sexual relationship with someone of the same gender. But that somehow it's A-OK that everyone see options to murder innocents.

 

Bioware would be insane to add such a option. It makes a content distinction that is plainly discriminatory, unjustifiable and that runs contrary to their other product offerings.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Galius]

Please add the toggle if you add S/S flirts.

 

I refuse to try and explain myself anymore since every time I do it just gets blasted or removed by the uber sensitive. Needless to say those against the toggle have no real reason to try and impede someones enjoyment of the game.

[SithCliff]

False dilemma.

 

This is what I based my statement on: Fourth paragraph of the first post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=268112

 

The game is obviously fantasy where morals can be disregarded, which is why they keep telling this thread to stay on game content.

 

Because of all of the threads related to flirts and suggestions as to what should be done with them, I am highly concerned that if changes are made there will be a possibility that by accidentally clicking on a response will cause your character to follow a path you don't want them to.

 

I do not care about any of the in game characters building a romance relationship (regardless of any gender). I want to play the game and interact with other players, and not worry about a companion or npc telling me they are in love with me because I accidentally clicked on something.

 

Since you brought up murder, maybe for every flirt option there should be a murder option with the same choice set, that would solve any and all issues for me. As long as the choices don't provide light or dark side points. (I am joking.)

[Krayna]

Please add the toggle if you add S/S flirts.

 

I refuse to try and explain myself anymore since every time I do it just gets blasted or removed by the uber sensitive. Needless to say those against the toggle have no real reason to try and impede someones enjoyment of the game.

 

Its because implementing a toggle that filters content that reflects on a minority group is highly offensive. I am sorry but by putting in a toggle like that as its been said time and time again that it makes being GLBT more offensive then being a murder, slaver, abuser, or creep.

 

As I made in a previous post I have to see people use the Sith punish ability and I am not even a sith. So i have to watch people abuse a NPC at the GTN listening to their companion cry. I do my best to ignore it there is alot about this game that bothers me but I do not start threads about how certain things offend me in game and try to get forced filters put into game. If that is how people want to play their characters so be it I don't like it but I am not going to let a thing like that stop me from playing and I am not going to lock people out of playing a dark abusive sith or make them feel like they are abusers when they make their characters.

 

Remember what you are asking for, in the process of leveling from 1-50 you will have to see in what is a good couple hundred hours plus of game play if you play smuggler you will see 5-7 companion flirts(( double that if you have 2 companions of the same gender you can flirt with)) that are same gender and possibly a dozen IF they implement flirting with same gender npc's. Its not every person that you come in contact with. And the trade off is this , that you want a filter that basically says that the most offensive thing in the game is a willing romance between 2 people of the same gender or harmless night of fun between 2 people of the same gender?

 

Also remember this game is bringing in alot of new people that haven't played a MMO before or a Bioware game. If they lock themselves into a set way or do not realize what they are doing they create a character. This is why toggles are bad. I am sorry there is content that upsets alot of people in game this should be no different.

[Hamsterkill]

I don't really care either way, but from what I can tell about the current game design, the toggle is likely the most feasible solution from a technical standpoint. All dialogue choices in game are currently designed around having either two or three options.

 

Adding a fourth in order to accommodate the addition of flirts and non-flirts to allow every one the full range of choices is certainly possible but likely more difficult than the simple toggle solution.

 

Then there is the problem in certain cases where I think the current script involves two characters with one staying around for additional flirting and the other leaving. The case that comes to mind is on the Smuggle class quest line with the two noble siblings on Alderaan. Again, solving this issue is certainly possible, but the toggle would seemingly be the easier change to implement.

 

So, since I don't care how the issue is solved it becomes a question of whether the people who want to see it added have the extra patience to wait for the full options to be done or take the quicker toggle solution.

[myndenx]

I would prefer if at character creation, after you pick male/female, you had to pick between another two options: heterosexual or homosexual.

 

Then the game recognizes your choice, and depending on the combination of gender and hetero/****, gives you the adequate flirt dialogues designed for those combinations.

[GenoAmi]

Please add the toggle if you add S/S flirts.

 

I refuse to try and explain myself anymore since every time I do it just gets blasted or removed by the uber sensitive. Needless to say those against the toggle have no real reason to try and impede someones enjoyment of the game.

 

If your enjoyment of the game hinges on whether or not same-gender flirts, then this game isn't for you. Same-gender romances are coming, so make your choice.

 

 

 

I'm finding that there are less reasons every day to have the toggle. If it is to "preserve movie canon", we're in c-canon, wherein all EU canon is taken into account (as opposed to g-canon, which is limited to the movies only). If it is "we want x content first", no one is arguing that same-gender content be implemented before necessary fixes and additions.

 

My post here describes why, mechanically, it is unnecessary in this type of game.

 

 

Page 6, really? Really?

 

Anywhoodle, the next Q&A is tomorrow, the 24th (if I'm not mistaken), so please post your question as to how SG content is coming, when SG content is coming, along with how and when SG flirts with NPC's will become available.

 

(NOTE: The following has to do with application of SG flirts, and is therefore on-topic. I make comparisons to other games, but I'm talking from a writer's point of view, and it takes a while for me to make my point. But don't worry, I eventually get to my point~)

 

Why same-gender flirting is on equal footing with any other trait of a character - The Character-Creation Experience (I'd write more, but I've been at this for about two and a half hours... )

 

Also, why does there need to be a toggle? I've tried to look at things from both sides, but I'm becoming increasingly unconvinced the toggle has any logical use. Even my idea of not calling it a toggle, but making it something that's a part of your character (like race, class, and faction) has me disconcerted. If one is to establish a character's sexuality, all it really takes is avoiding options that aren't a part of that character's sexuality- the player builds the character from choices. Unlike actual people, characters in games like this are blank slates wherein choices form the character like a model from clay. So, a character is dark side or light side from our choices- as we make choices for our character, we reveal who they are.

 

This makes more sense from the writer's point of view- especially one that studies theater so much. The actor/writer/what-have-you is taught that a story is an ephemeral, consolidated series of events that tel the story- no more, no less. How does Samus Aran spend her leisure time? Why is Snake so fond of g-strings on the outside of his outfit? Does Gordon Freeman like better: bourbon or whiskey? These questions are never answered for good reason- they are immaterial to the plot. Even if they had any importance whatsoever, they happen outside of what we see- and ergo, are not in existence- the audience fills in those blanks in their individual minds. So, in effect, we don't know anything about a character until the character does it in front of us, until we see what choices that character makes. Mario can't jump high altitudes until we press the "B" button, Junpei (from 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors) doesn't make awkward jokes to try to alleviate a grim situation until we see him do so, et cetera and so forth.

 

So, taking this into account, we have our blank slates, our characters-to-be, as we had with Shepard, The Warden, The Vault Dweller, The Courier, et cetera. Whenever we start a character up in these games and more, we have a small semblance of a past, but nothing that's ever too distinct. We are a space soldier who fought on a dangerous mission, we're a package handler who got shot and buried alive, but these all define who a character "was", not "is", nor "will be". Therefore, our choices throughout the game define the character, not who we build it as.

 

EXAMPLE:

Jedi Consular Bloody'Mc'Bloodletter is confronted with killing his master, Yuon Par. Bloody (we'll call him for short) is a male Zabrak Consular. Upon arrival at Tython, we are told by the game that Bloody is an exceptional Padawan here to undertake apprenticeship and study the mysteries of the force. Until this crossroads of a moral choice, Bloody cuts a swatch through Tython, leaving behind no survivors if there ever is a choice between "kill and spare".

 

Does Bloody kill Yuon Par? His past is highly violent, and he's already claimed many Dark Side points. If we are to guess (let's say this ends on an ambiguous ending), most people would say "Yeah, Yuon dies." But let's say that isn't the case- that Bloody, either out of respect, mercy, or even arbitrary whim, spares Yuon Par. That adds a new dimension to the character, it becomes part of him that wasn't there before.

 

APPLYING THE EXAMPLE TO SEXUALITY AND FLIRT OPTIONS:

Bloody has traveled the galaxy, and left it a lot emptier. He's saved his Jedi Masters, sparing them the same fate many who cross his path take. Let's say that he's put off flirting until now. Nadia and Tharan both show a romantic interest in Bloody, as he's been somewhat of a charmer. Bloody politely refuses to flirt with both when originally prompted to.

 

What conclusions do we draw? None. Advances have been rejected, but no sexuality has been shown. After all, we don't base our guesses of sexual orientation off of vague situations (Though ironic, seeing as I ship Franziska von Karma and Adrian Andrews from the Ace Attorney series from one line during the credits of the second game).

 

Let's say Bloody continues to reject Nadia's advances, but accepts Tharan's. These choices are made over the course of a few conversations, and soon a relationship blossoms between the two. It is only now that a relationship has been established between Tharan and Bloody that we can conclude the character is gay, for what choices the character makes reveal so.

 

 

It can then be concluded that there is no logical reason any sort of filter, toggle, or choice must be made to determine sexuality from a literary/cinematic/gaming storyline point of view. Since a character doesn't have a sexuality until it is established by choices (as opposed to real people, who are made by experiences that happen outside of other's perceptions), it then makes no sense that it be determined via any choice that says "I'm gay/straight/bi" as a stone-cold fact.

 

Unlike race (an aesthetic choice), appearance (aesthetic choice) class (game-play choice to determine a character's powers and story arc undertaken), and faction (again, game-play choice to determine which side the player fights for), sexuality is a non-vital choice of creating a character. Race, class, and faction are the bare, absolute minimums necessary for the game, as you can't undertake a story or play the game as a classless player- nor can anyone react to your species (which is an underlying theme of Star Wars, the concepts of racism and one's struggles with it). Likewise, the character's appearance is absolutely necessary, because without it, you can't see who you are, and all NPC's and companions would be talking to a character without form- much like those edited Garfield comics where all characters but Jon are edited out.

 

The difference between vital and non-vital choices are simple: if it is absolutely necessary to be able to progress at all, it is vital. Otherwise, it is a non-vital choice. Do not mistake me- non-vital choices are important, but they are part of building your character from the given slate, not necessary in creating the slate.

 

Edited February 24, 2012 by Sireene
Inappropriate Content

[Comfterbilly]

Its because implementing a toggle that filters content that reflects on a minority group is highly offensive. .

 

The people against a "toggle" are suggesting that using it would filter content. They are alternately suggesting that a toggle is not needed because those choices would all be available on the conversation wheel. If they get there way, people will be able to use those choices to........

 

...filter content. Fail.

[GenoAmi]

There is already a filter. It's called whether or not to purchase the product, to install it, to boot it up, to play it, to continue subscription.

[Comfterbilly]

There is already a filter. It's called whether or not to purchase the product, to install it, to boot it up, to play it, to continue subscription.

 

"Take what you get or don't expect BW to care about the money you've spent investing in their product, or to worry the loss of your business..." That's a far cry from your original argument.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Comfterbilly

[GenoAmi]

"Take what you get or don't expect BW to care about the money you've spent investing in their product, or to worry the loss of your business..." That's a far cry from your original argument.

 

I never said this, or at least I never meant to imply it. My original argument was that the toggle was a compromise if it couldn't be implemented any other way- and I still will accept it if done so iff (not a typo) that is the only way s/g flirts and romances are implemented.

[Krayna]

The people against a "toggle" are suggesting that using it would filter content. They are alternately suggesting that a toggle is not needed because those choices would all be available on the conversation wheel. If they get there way, people will be able to use those choices to........

 

...filter content. Fail.

 

Ok a filter is anything that removes content visible from game. Toggle that makes certain romance arcs disappear from game Is a filter. I click said toggle and guess what that content is no longer visible when played. No toggle means that there is no content when presented that is denied to a player.

 

And picking gender preference is the same thing its a toggle with bows and spray paint on it. Does the same thing with a less offensive name. I don't see why in what is 200 plus hours of game play that a handful of SS flirts is so hard to look over and that you have to have a system that labels people as offensive. Its not like they make you choose the flirt options. There is alot of offensive material in the game and putting a filter on something places that item at the top of the list of being the most offensive.

[Master-Nala]

"Take what you get or don't expect BW to care about the money you've spent investing in their product, or to worry the loss of your business..." That's a far cry from your original argument.

 

They should not concern themselves with the loss of business from anyone who would quit over seeing [Flirt] next to a computer image that looks like the gender of their character.