No Cross Realm LFG tool please!

[justregularjoe]

It is getting late so I can't deal with you trolls much longer. Insulting my avatar and inventing things I said is not "debating" or "arguing". If you are upset that I make good points, make a good one back.

[darkcerb]

I have used the /who many times to form groups. Why is it that you, or other Pro-LFG tool people, are unable to. I have /who jugg /who assassin and /who powertech in order to find a tank. I have /who sniper and /who operative to find a dps when i needed to. If I and thousand of others are able to, why can't you ?

 

Nothing will stop you whispering random people for an hour or more on a high pop server if you want. And I'm being generous with that time having spent far longer with less results on harbinger.

[darkcerb]

It is getting late so I can't deal with you trolls much longer. Insulting my avatar and inventing things I said is not "debating" or "arguing". If you are upset that I make good points, make a good one back.

 

It's optional.

 

Defeats all your arguments and everyone else's.

 

Community is in your guild and imagination as it's always been coming from an EQ/wow/rift player from release of all three.

 

Spamming people and the general chat is not difficult or the socializing part of the game nor should it be or is it intended to be and if you believe it is then good for you because again:

 

IT IS OPTIONAL.

[IronFirewind]

I wonder if the people trolling the thread realise that it's the cross-server part that people dislike rather than having a LFG tool...

 

It would explain why they want it to badly though. If the way they behave on the forums if the same as how they behave ingame then I see why nobody on their server would want to group with them...

[Touchbass]

What? Its an MMO dude, level alts, raid Ops, help your guildies gear up running hard modes, help other people gear up running hard modes, PvP, world bosses...the list goes on.

 

My point was there isn't a lot of dungeon content to build friendship over. Operations are for guild affairs imo and should stay that way.

 

 

If they are so easy to figure out, then why is it a problem ?

 

They cause too many problems is why they are being removed.

 

 

Neither do I. That is why the 8/16 man raid is great. It is much easier to get a group together and do an OP now. I really don't see what you are arguing here...

 

lets move on

 

I have used the /who many times to form groups. Why is it that you, or other Pro-LFG tool people, are unable to. I have /who jugg /who assassin and /who powertech in order to find a tank. I have /who sniper and /who operative to find a dps when i needed to. If I and thousand of others are able to, why can't you ?

 

Cause there isn't anyone on or willing to do it? Do you think I'd be on hear arguing if I made one solo tell in /fleet and gave up after 1 minute and came here to complain? I have better things to do with my time if this wasn't an issue

[darkcerb]

I wonder if the people trolling the thread realise that it's the cross-server part that people dislike rather than having a LFG tool...

 

It would explain why they want it to badly though. If the way they behave on the forums if the same as how they behave ingame then I see why nobody on their server would want to group with them...

 

Disagreeing with you is not trolling, and reading this thread we're not the ones spewing hyperbole exaggerations and lies.

 

Nor are we the ones pouting and insisting anyone who disagrees with us is trolling.

 

Logical argument on one side, desperate grasping and ever changing arguments from another.

[Uruare]

Man that really isn't it.

 

I want to address something

 

To me, at least "server rep " doesn't mean " OMG Everyone Knows my name and I'm amazing leet I have world first I cleared all the content "

 

Server rep to me means like this: So you are pugging a dungeon; I am a healer. I find a tank in /1 and some dps. The run is going great ! So I notice that one of the DPSers is really great, his DPS is awesome, he has got a great spec, or great gear, or W/e the case may be I don't know, I just know his damage is awesome. I'm going to add that DPS to my friends list so next time I make a group and I need his class, I will whisper him first if he is online.

 

Same can be said about a great tank, who I noticed had awesome aggro and the mobs never came at me, or if I'm on a DPS, a great healer who I really enjoyed grouping with.

 

That, to me , is server rep. Someone who I like to play with because I personally thought they were a good player. That is only my opinion, not fact. If there is a player in my group I don't feel that way about, I don't go in /1 and yell " xyz is a terribad " No. THAT is elitist.

 

You people accusing others of elitism need to know that elitist could care less about LFG - they have already cleared all the content, and have guilds where they can get players to do runs with.

 

This LFG/LFD argument isn't about elitism, it is (to me) about the general fact of "dumbing down the game ". Has anyone seen what Blizz plans to do with Panda land ? They plan to take out all the talents so there is no thought required. That is one of the main reasons I decided to try this game ~ they still have actual talent trees ! This is an example of dumbing down the game.

 

Now, if you want to argue me, so far I haven't really said anything specific but here is your chance. The common arguments seems to be "Elitists don't want LFG tool because then others can get loots ", or, "Elitists don't want LFG tool because they don't want others to enjoy the content ". These are the two most common things I have seen.

 

First off, the hard modes are...not that hard. The operations (8/16 man) are puggable, and not that hard either. The loot attained in hard modes is available just as easily for anyone to get, and its the Rakata gear ( dropped in hard mode Ops) that is the true epeen gear. The fact is, a group couldn't kill anything in HM ops because it requires a lot of coordination and probably vent/mumble etc. So, saying that "elitist don't want people to get gear" is false, because it would be unattainable anyway by ANY kind of LFG tool or system (due only to the nature of HM OPS requiring more communication over vent etc. which casuals seem to avoid or not want any part of in the first place).

 

Second, "Elitists don't want LFG tool because they don't want others to enjoy the content ". I can't speak for everyone, but if you are paying the same $ as me, you deserve a chance to see all the content the game has to offer. The disconnect comes where people believe that it should be handed to them, vs people who think it should be something that requires work to attain.

 

Let me give an example. Back in Vanilla WoW , lvl 60 content (ZG/AQ20/40/MC/BWL/NAXX) was ONLY accessible if you had a guild with a bunch of people in it. So many, like myself who played with no friends, had to make them, join a guild, build relationships, and finally work hard to gear up in order to see the content. Truth be told, all I saw @ lvl 60 was ZG/Aq20/MC/ and half of BWL. That is less than half. But even more sad, is that only an estimated (I think at the time) 3% of the wow players actually got to see the content. I was one of those people who thought I should be able to see all the content ! I payed my 15 dollars a month too! So...I joined a guild...I geared my character...I learned how to play well...and eventually saw some of it. Back then, it required work.

 

So that is it: My problem with LFG is that the content is easily available to ANYONE who is willing to put in just a tiny bit of effort to join a guild (there is guilds spamming all day long), gear your toon, make some friends, start your own guild, recruit friends to the game, roll a tank or healer. There is so many ways available to see content. Whether that content is Eternity Vault normal (easily do-able in lvl 50 blues/oranges), or Hard Mode False Emperor (requiring a bit more coordination than the Ops even), the content is there and accesible within less than an hour for anyone willing to put in a tiny bit of effort.

 

LFG removes that requirement for a tiny bit of effort. I can't imagine what kind of troll response you can even say to this, because it is 100 % true. I have already said, low pop servers should be merged, and the faction imbalance in this game is absolutely sickening, but barring those two obstacles, I feel the a LFG tool is merely a shortcut for what (I personally believe) should take just a minuscule amount of effort.

 

I am sorry for the wall of text, I am just sick of people assuming that "one group doesn't want it because of this blanket generalization" because it simply is not true. Elitists don't care - they stopped caring when the original LFG tool was available years ago.

 

 

 

 

Very cool; a well stated post with equally well reasoned positions.

 

 

In light of these clarified positions thusly stated, I find myself generally in agreement with you. You make no point herein that I determine to be unsound and without merit per the reasoning attendant, and moreover, your overal position is germane to your conclusion.

 

 

That said, I find that I disagree with your conclusion based on mere preference. It seems that the nature of your concern upon the matter veers one way where mine kind've detonates into a vexed/amused poof of sparkles and cynical "Fine, put a tourniquet on its neck, it didn't need its head anyway" manner of feeling about it.

 

So, cool. Thank you for the well structured post.

[justregularjoe]

Nothing will stop you whispering random people for an hour or more on a high pop server if you want. And I'm being generous with that time having spent far longer with less results on harbinger.

 

Honestly man, your anger at being on a low pop server is 100% understood. If I had gotten unlucky and my server of choice turned out to be low pop, I would be mad as heck, and screaming for X-server LFG too. But you must realize that when you come to the forums and spout off all kinds of hate and anger, insults, and acting like other peoples concerns don't matter, it just nullifies any points you might have made.

 

Really, how hard would it have been to say " You may have a point, but I need x-server LFG because my server population is so low, it literally takes hours to put together a group". To me, that is not something that should be happening. I just don't think that x-server is the answer. I think that incentivizing those servers, or merging them, is the answer. That is just my personal opinion. I would just ask, if you had 200+ people on your fleet at prime time, would you still have problems finding a group ? I know at least on my server, Hedarr Soongh, it has never been a problem (on imperial side, although I hear the republic is very small indeed).

 

Some would just be callous and say " re-roll to high pop server than " but that is not the answer. Some would say " roll a tank or healer then and stop QQing " but that is not the answer either, even though it is 100x easier to get and form groups as a tank or healer. So, hopefully you can see I am not one of those saying L2P - I am saying the solution is not to fragment a community and such, but to make the communities larger so there is a lot more opportunity for all to accomplish what they want to do in-game.

 

 

but then...

 

It's optional.

 

 

Spamming people and the general chat is not difficult or the socializing part of the game nor should it be or is it intended to be and if you believe it is then good for you because again:

 

IT IS OPTIONAL.

 

 

Playing the game is optional.

Doing the content is optional

Having fun is optional.

 

Simply saying something is optional does not make it not viable, or a good choice. Buying a car and driving to work is optional; you could just take the bus, or bike, or walk, but buying a car brings many other benefits and accomplishes the goal very well. Spamming /1 LF TANK +DPS HM BT is optional - but it is the best way to accomplish the goal (right now). You, I suppose are claiming that a LFG tool, x-server at that, would create yet another option to find a group. I agree it would, but at the cost of many other things listed throughout this thread.

 

 

and this :

 

I wonder if the people trolling the thread realise that it's the cross-server part that people dislike rather than having a LFG tool...

 

It would explain why they want it to badly though. If the way they behave on the forums if the same as how they behave ingame then I see why nobody on their server would want to group with them...

 

 

QFT man...QFT

Edited February 13, 2012 by justregularjoe

[Touchbass]

Really interesting to see what you're trying to do with your community values thing, I know it's off topic but I like it. Love the part about infraction points and grey areas, I keep getting penalized a lot and have no clue for what exactly as I see people making more severe marks without penatly. Edited February 13, 2012 by Touchbass

[IronFirewind]

Disagreeing with you is not trolling, and reading this thread we're not the ones spewing hyperbole exaggerations and lies.

 

Nor are we the ones pouting and insisting anyone who disagrees with us is trolling.

 

Logical argument on one side, desperate grasping and ever changing arguments from another.

 

1) The fact that you took the post personally and assumed it was aimed at you is all I need to know.

 

2) You're kinda contradicting yourself by claiming that you aren't trolling them proceeding to post inflammatory comments purely intended to cause an argument.

 

3) I really don't think you've read the entire thread there's some pretty good arguments from both sides.

 

4) Looking over your posts in this thread over the last few pages also makes me think you overuse a Thesaurus a lot. I'd cut down on that as it comes off as a bit pretentious on forums when the tone of speech is hard to convey into text.

 

5) Honestly I don't care if you're pro or anti-cross server but being a jerk about it just makes you look bad and hard to take seriously when combined with #4.

Edited February 13, 2012 by IronFirewind

[Touchbass]

I wonder if the people trolling the thread realise that it's the cross-server part that people dislike rather than having a LFG tool...

 

It would explain why they want it to badly though. If the way they behave on the forums if the same as how they behave ingame then I see why nobody on their server would want to group with them...

 

One could also say that people who can't find a group without using the X-LFD on high population servers never had any friends to begin with and their socialization experience was a fake. See what happens why we use rhetoric? Sounds sily

Edited February 13, 2012 by Touchbass

[mustangmandark]

cross server ques = bad idea

no community = cross server que

 

There is no community in any theme parks and people are leaving there server and quiting the game because there is no grouping so if you don;t want the game to fail we should have it..

 

 

WOW added it and it helped alot best tool ever... If you don't like it don't use it, its simple..

[justregularjoe]

 

So, cool. Thank you for the well structured post.

 

You are welcome and I hope I was able to shed some light on the issue.

[Vespon]

Well this is quite simple, given up WoW because of all that kind of rubbish they add to the game which made it boring and dull, if they want to turn this game into another WoW then guess what?...

[face_hindu]

There is no community in any theme parks and people are leaving there server and quiting the game because there is no grouping so if you don;t want the game to fail we should have it..

 

 

WOW added it and it helped alot best tool ever... If you don't like it don't use it, its simple..

 

Take this analogy for what you will:

 

Ever been to a Theme Park? Six Flags, Disney World, Universal Studios... You're there with a bunch of people you don't know, you're all paying, enjoying your own experiences... sometimes you do rides together, then you never see that person again. Or you might see them later. Point is, the Theme Park is set up to cater to the individual and create a great individual experience. It's not like your roller coaster is going to fall off the tracks if everyone on it isn't really skilled at riding a roller coaster.

 

Raids, PvP, different story. Flashpoints and heroics though? Straight up roller coaster. Who cares who you ride it with.

[krameriffic]

Very cool; a well stated post with equally well reasoned positions.

 

It is not well stated or well reasoned because it's built on precisely the predominant (and wrong) notion that automated LFG systems break communities down and dumb down the game. You also cannot say that you are not being elitist while simultaneously complaining that anything is being dumbed down in a video game. Anybody who cares that much about notions of status and difficulty in a video game is an elitist. Also, drawing any comparisons between the design of this game and the design of vanilla WoW is just... stupid. There's a reason why that design philosophy has gone out the window: because it caters to elitists like the poster in question and alienates the VAST majority of its playerbase.

 

WoW has taken it another step. Forget dungeon finder, you can now find entire raid groups through that mechanic. You can meet and befriend people ON OTHER SERVERS through this because the raids are complex enough that you will recognize the goodies from the baddies. The battletag system through Battle.net allows full cross server friend functionality as well as the ability to form groups for battlegrounds, dungeons and raids with anybody on any server. This is indisputably a great thing that CANNOT happen in SWTOR. It breaks down barriers between servers by bringing all of the content to anyone who wants to play it with anyone else on the NA server cluster.

 

Your quotee also mentions the notion that LFG removes this "tiny bit of effort" of meeting a group of quality individuals, forming a guild or friendship with them and then grouping consistently with those people. First of all, it isn't always easy to find quality players who are looking to be social. It's in the nature of an MMO that many players are going to be antisocial nerds with their own established cliques not looking to make new friends. Solo players are often garbage can casuals that you would sooner prefer to stab your own eyeballs out than play with again. Second, if the LFG tool is only removing what is a minor inconvenience, then what's the big deal about having it to you?

 

Let's put it this way. While leveling up in WoW before the LFD tool, you would almost never be able to find groups for any low level dungeons. I'm talking in WoW in the last couple years here--there are not many players leveling anymore on a single server, so you simply cannot find a Deadmines group from the selection of people on your own server. Furthermore, maybe you're leveling in Westfall, but you want to see the Wailing Caverns. I actually experienced this myself: I never saw WC until I went there and soloed it at max level because it was in Horde territory and was almost impossible to get a group for and get to as an Alliance player.

 

The cross-server LFG tool remedies both of these issues. They open up content to players in a mature MMO setting where not many people are leveling. They let you break the monotony of questing by efficiently and quickly getting you a group for dungeons that are next to impossible to get groups for without said tool for the reasons I stated above. It incentivizes grouping during a primarily solo leveling experience, even if it is grouping with players off of other servers. It allows players to see fun and interesting content that they would otherwise not see.

 

All complaints against the LFD systems are built upon the unwritten assumption that the players are all maximum level. And every single one I have ever seen is really stupid, your quotees being no exception.

[IronFirewind]

One could also say that people who can't find a group without using the X-LFD on high population servers never had any friends to begin with and their socialization experience was a fake. See what happens why we use rhetoric? Sounds sily

 

The entire concept of a guild revolves around a group of like-minded people to play the game together with. I've noticed on games that have any sort of LFG tool, the use and reliance upon depends on if they are in a guild or not. I have always been tempted to hop on something like Rift and survey how many people I see when using the cross server LFG and how many are in guilds.

 

I think on Rift I hit 50 just as the LFG tool was added and I got into a guild with some friends I made ingame so I didn't get much use out of it there other than to save one person having to walk out to the instance entrance.

 

And honestly making friends is each enough in this game. A little politeness and chatting when in a heroics group while levelling or in a flashpoint does go a long way. I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume than the average causal MMO player isn't capable of making friends ingame, infact, I think it might be a little insulting to the casuals to think that.

[darkcerb]

1) The fact that you took the post personally and assumed it was aimed at you is all I need to know.

 

2) You're kinda contradicting yourself by claiming that you aren't trolling them proceeding to post inflammatory comments purely intended to cause an argument.

 

3) I really don't think you've read the entire thread there's some pretty good arguments from both sides.

 

4) Looking over your posts in this thread over the last few pages also makes me think you overuse a Thesaurus a lot. I'd cut down on that as it comes off as a bit pretentious on forums when the tone of speech is hard to convey into text.

 

5) Honestly I don't care if you're pro or anti-cross server but being a jerk about it just makes you look bad and hard to take seriously when combined with #4.

 

 

Nothing in my post was imflammatory, they were facts.

 

Read the thread and any other on the subject if you wish proof. There's plenty to be seen.

 

And you prove my point by going off topic, insulting the way I type and convey thoughts.

[justregularjoe]

One could also say that people who can't find a group without using the X-LFD on high population servers never had any friends to begin with and their socialization experience was a fake. See what happens why we use rhetoric? Sounds sily

 

Ok see that is actually a fair argument (finally).

 

" People who can't find a group without x-LFG, already on a high pop server, never had any friends to begin with, so they cannot lose the 'community' aspect because it never existed for them "

 

That is, kind of a summation of that argument, I think ?

 

 

My reply is this:

 

Why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to make friends. You didn't do a single quest with anyone leveling ? You didn't do the flash points or dailies while leveling ? At 50, there are no guilds spamming "please join our guild" ? You have no RL friends who might want to play ? You can't just start a convo with someone in fleet ?

 

Generally speaking (read: Generally speaking), the majority of MMO subscribers play for the social aspect - I know I do. If I wanted to play a game alone I would play an FPS, or a single player RPG like Skyrim (which I absolutely love).

 

Maybe, just maybe, a LFG tool is for someone who has no desire to be social in a Massively Multiplayer game. I guess it is just hard for me to fathom why a person would want to play an MMO and not try to make friends. I have met people worldwide from my last ~7 years of MMO playing, and I couldn't be more happy that I did. But I never would have made such great relationships and connections by twiddling my thumbs and queing in a tool to play with people once and never see them again ~

[justregularjoe]

Raids, PvP, different story. Flashpoints and heroics though? Straight up roller coaster. Who cares who you ride it with.

 

 

The ONLY problem I have with this argument is that Hard Mode dungeons are much harder than normal mode operations (raids).

[darkcerb]

Playing the game is optional.

Doing the content is optional

Having fun is optional.

 

Simply saying something is optional does not make it not viable, or a good choice. Buying a car and driving to work is optional; you could just take the bus, or bike, or walk, but buying a car brings many other benefits and accomplishes the goal very well. Spamming /1 LF TANK +DPS HM BT is optional - but it is the best way to accomplish the goal (right now). You, I suppose are claiming that a LFG tool, x-server at that, would create yet another option to find a group. I agree it would, but at the cost of many other things listed throughout this thread.

 

At first I'm not sure what you're saying, I should quit the game because Although I can see it becoming amazing with a few optional features you don't want them?

 

And I disagree that it would cause any such problems that's kind of the point of the debate.

 

You believe in some great server community that simply doesn't exist and never has in my Eq/wow/rift release of all three experience, you believe a lfg system would destroy it.

 

Or you believe every group found via a lfg tool that's cross server would be horrible when my own experience's like that can be counted on one hand.

 

I love your line about the current system You don't claim it's some amazing community developing tool in fact you seem to imply my point that it wastes time for no good reason and that a tool would be far better.

 

Do none of you therefore see where I come from when I say the counter-argument seems to flip flop around like a clown?

 

You seem to argue this point emotionally which makes no sense, you can't argue an optional feature emotionally because it doesn't need to have any effect on you if you don't need one now.

[IronFirewind]

Nothing in my post was imflammatory, they were facts.

 

Read the thread and any other on the subject if you wish proof. There's plenty to be seen.

 

And you prove my point by going off topic, insulting the way I type and convey thoughts.

 

Look up the definitions of "objective" and "subjective" in the dictionary and get back to me.

 

Also find my posts in this thread and find at any point where I tried to claim something as fact.

 

And honestly I only did that because you are really beginning to prove the first post of mine that you quoted right.

 

You are right about this going off topic and I don't really plan to run up any infractions. Back to playing the game for me I suppose.

[justregularjoe]

....that automated LFG systems break communities down and dumb down the game.

 

Never said it breaks down the community, my main argument is that is dumbs down the game, which is does. WoW has proven this. I'm not arguing this point, it is fact at this time in the game.

 

All complaints against the LFD systems are built upon the unwritten assumption that the players are all maximum level. And every single one I have ever seen is really stupid, your quotees being no exception.

 

 

You know the rest of your post had merit, until you went and called other peoples posts stupid. I had a post removed for implying that some people were bad, but you can call people stupid and get away with it no problem.

[face_hindu]

The ONLY problem I have with this argument is that Hard Mode dungeons are much harder than normal mode operations (raids).

 

And that's fair enough... just trying to get some perspective here. It's not Wurm Online or some obscure, hardcore Korean affair. It's a commercial game. It's like the Justin Bieber of MMOs, and some people are still hoping it's the second coming of Kurt Cobain. To totally change metaphors.

[darkcerb]

Look up the definitions of "objective" and "subjective" in the dictionary and get back to me.

 

 

I know full well the difference, and if you believe any of the counter-arguments in this or any other thread are objective then you're more deluded then you appear.

 

I do urge you to actually read these threads.

 

Both sides are subjective, one side has just forgone all logic and have decided an emotionally driven approach will win the day regardless of how weak a position that is when talking about an optional feature in a game.