Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

[Nijraw]

I love the OP's Ideas, please Bioware look into this change, maybe give us the option to unlock those animations via Legacy system?

[TheNeox]

Please Bioware. Leave the animation. just fix the bugs.

 

Tossing a driod arm or a huge bolder at someone is as neutral to a offensive spell as you can get. Therefor it fits with the lore. Yes, in the movies the Sith threw things at the Jedi. But the Sith got lighting, so what does the Jedi get? Lets be creative for a bit... blue lightning?.... no thankyou.

 

Dont turn it into a bland blue version of the Sith animation, or ANY blue fireball ripoff animation.

 

The delay is PERFECT for setting up burst.

With the current delay, you can use Relic and Force Potence while the "chuck" is in the air.

 

For ppl that whine that they dident get to interupt doorplanters in WZ. Use another spell?

 

I dont want Bioware to think that every Jedi shadow or sage hates project. Because we dont.

As others have stated in this thread. Its a visually pleasing animation that has a tactical element to it (refering to the delay).

 

All in all, the delay is a duble edged sword. Great for setting up burst, not so great for interupting og killing someone instantly.

[kevshootit]

quick compromise:

 

1. Put the "project" animation on "Telekinetic throw" kinda fits with the delay, having to stop for a sec to rip out the object and toss it

 

2. Rework the animation for "project" and make it a quick "force push" looking attack, with waves of force, like daul maul did to obi wan in phantom menance and shatel does in the "hope" trailer. That animation seems to work better (in my opinion) for quick attack that can be made while running.

 

Then both sides might be "happier" Projects fans still get to toss stuff as a core ability and people who hate it get a faster, more "forcepower" looking attack.

 

will anyone miss Telekinetic throws pepples all THAT much?

[Horsemaster]

Written by someone who likes force lightning. LOL

[Tanilith]

I don't really care about the others, but Force Throw is so disgustingly inane that I started a Sith Assassin instead.

 

I'm sorry, but for one of the most often used Shadow abilities, it sucks to watch.

 

I mean really, Monty Python? "Very small rocks"

 

I support changing this. PLEASE.

[Preachir]

I also started a Petition for the in the Classes general forum. I for one am a HUGE!!! fan of just using like a force jab style animation i dont need to see a spinning rock hanging in the air because it didnt do damage.

[iDiggory]

I honestly completely disagree with the proposed changes.

 

Project is making use of one of the most fundamental Jedi combat techniques--making use of your environment to fight. Yeah, it's really weird to pull a droid out of a ship's floor. But honestly, is there anything else they could have done? It would be a HUGE loss, imo, for us to have no abilities that used the debris around us to fight.

 

One legitimate option, though, is to move the "origin" point backwards more, so it's out of sight for anything but the most zoomed out cameras. Why would this help?

 

In most areas with metal flooring, you are relatively enclosed, so your camera is going to be far more zoomed in. The result is that it will look like you have seized a droid wreck or something from somewhere in the hallway before throwing it at your opponent. Of course, rotating the camera would ruin the illusion, but it's something. In any areas where you are zoomed out, you are probably on a plain of somesort--boulders aren't so weird in that case.

 

Same thing with Telekinetic Throw--I will echo the call for the rocks to move faster. But, honestly, it just makes sense for a Consular to be using their environment to fight. And propelling rocks towards bullet speeds is actually going to do a LOT of damage.

 

Are they as cool as force lightning? No. But, frankly, little is. I personally prefer Telekinetic Wave's animation over Force Lightning. But, to be blunt, there's something just awesome about FL that light-side Jedi just aren't going to get. Afterall, unless they are going to violate the lore surrounding the light side, they CAN'T give us anything that directly harms an opponent. As it stands, our pure-force powers are coming perilously close. Technically speaking, telekinetic powers are still used to attack via the environment.

 

I think it would be a horrible, horrible, horrible loss if the Consular didn't primarily use objects to deal damage.

[NewtonDevice]

How has this not been stickied yet? Devs don't want to acknowledge that this is an obvious disparity between the classes?

[Dyvim]

quick compromise:

 

1. Put the "project" animation on "Telekinetic throw" kinda fits with the delay, having to stop for a sec to rip out the object and toss it

 

2. Rework the animation for "project" and make it a quick "force push" looking attack, with waves of force, like daul maul did to obi wan in phantom menance and shatel does in the "hope" trailer. That animation seems to work better (in my opinion) for quick attack that can be made while running.

 

Then both sides might be "happier" Projects fans still get to toss stuff as a core ability and people who hate it get a faster, more "forcepower" looking attack.

 

will anyone miss Telekinetic throws pepples all THAT much?

 

Apparently some people love the pebbles. I read one player that said he loved them because he thought it made it embarrassing for his pvp enemy to die from pebbles. Yeah, that is a bench mark for a great animation...lol. If you follow that train of thought, we should have dog poo lightsabers (how far is that from black cores, really...lol), then it would be really embarrasing to die from one of those...comeon people. It gets tiresome.

 

I have a 50 sage and a 20 shadow atm, plus sorcerers and an assassin. Here is teh difficulty with what you propose...project, as is, is not a channeled animation. It isnt an instant animation either, although that is what it is masqerading as...the only way it can make sense is to use it as an "activation time" animation...it takes time to pull up the debris and spin it then throw it. The only way to use it as a channeled ani would be to retool it....you could then have something like this:

 

Toon generates the two zephyrs on each side, like in forcequake, then the pebbles start streaming, and intermittently, during the channeling, chunk a clunkers pop up out of the zephyrs and head to the target. So during the channeling, the target is either being hit with pebbles, or pebbles and junk...In effectively combining them, you might actual come out with something that looks a little more substantial. But you would still have to fix the rocks out of starship decks environment issues...and you are still throwing rocks and junk, just like a good Sith from the movies....so, I would say no, lets stick with what Satele showed us...but who knows what, if anything BW will do.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

I honestly completely disagree with the proposed changes.

 

Project is making use of one of the most fundamental Jedi combat techniques--making use of your environment to fight. Yeah, it's really weird to pull a droid out of a ship's floor. But honestly, is there anything else they could have done? It would be a HUGE loss, imo, for us to have no abilities that used the debris around us to fight.

 

One legitimate option, though, is to move the "origin" point backwards more, so it's out of sight for anything but the most zoomed out cameras. Why would this help?

 

In most areas with metal flooring, you are relatively enclosed, so your camera is going to be far more zoomed in. The result is that it will look like you have seized a droid wreck or something from somewhere in the hallway before throwing it at your opponent. Of course, rotating the camera would ruin the illusion, but it's something. In any areas where you are zoomed out, you are probably on a plain of somesort--boulders aren't so weird in that case.

 

Same thing with Telekinetic Throw--I will echo the call for the rocks to move faster. But, honestly, it just makes sense for a Consular to be using their environment to fight. And propelling rocks towards bullet speeds is actually going to do a LOT of damage.

 

Are they as cool as force lightning? No. But, frankly, little is. I personally prefer Telekinetic Wave's animation over Force Lightning. But, to be blunt, there's something just awesome about FL that light-side Jedi just aren't going to get. Afterall, unless they are going to violate the lore surrounding the light side, they CAN'T give us anything that directly harms an opponent. As it stands, our pure-force powers are coming perilously close. Technically speaking, telekinetic powers are still used to attack via the environment.

 

I think it would be a horrible, horrible, horrible loss if the Consular didn't primarily use objects to deal damage.

 

Thanks for the post, enjoyed reading it. You talk about how the animation lets the jedi interact with the environment, but that is absolutely not true. The animation cheats, and is totally ignorant of the environment - rocks out of starship decks, etc. Then it cheats further by expecting us to believe that no matter where we are there is a droid graveyard at our feet, or junkyard, etc. What you consider a strength is actually one of the animations huge weaknesses. What else could they have done? This thread is full of ideas, just like my original post was.

 

You are right, rocks and junk arent as cool as force lightning and never will be. Force lightning is the energy manifestation used by the Sith, obviously jedi have energy manifestations of their own for energy/force kinetic projectiles. Now those are cooler in concept and could be cooler in the animation, than even lightning, if BW put in a little effort and stopped phoning it in for this class.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Dyvim

[iDiggory]

Your original ideas have them doing away with the aesthetic all together. The point of the matter is that they considered it important to stay true to the Jedi of the lore. And one of the base skills that every Jedi has exhibited is to use debris to fight.

 

They had no way to stay true to that theme without implementing the current mechanics. Yes, it would be nice if they switched up the type of debris based on location. But, frankly, that's a pretty massive undertaking.

 

Abandoning that is, frankly, abandoning what it has always been to be a Jedi. When you watch Yoda fight with the force, he does two things. His most common tactic is to pick up debris and lob it at his opponent. The second, and clearly less-used tactic, is to uses the force to slam into the target directly (in which case, the environment is still his weapon--he's using the force to turn walls and floors into weapons).

 

We already have too many pure force abilities. What, exactly, is the difference between Disturbance, Turbulence, and Telekinetic Wave? From what I can tell, Disturbance is a lighter "push", Telekinetic Wave is a strong, wide "push", and Turbulence has the approximate "size" of Disturbance but a strength closer to Wave.

 

They are supposed to be the same general skill--they are all a "strong" force push, like a Consular would be able to produce. See Satele Shan's fight with Malgus, or Yoda's fight with Sidious for the examples. Shan is trying to "hurt" Malgus by slamming him into the cliff wall. The force isn't doing the damage directly. The only reason we can't do that in the game is mechanics based.

 

It's the EXACT SAME problem Project and Telekinetic Throw have. We are supposed to ignore the fact that that Disturbance, Telekinetic Wave, and Turbulence shouldn't be doing damage in that situation. (No, really, it's a fundamental part of the lore--Consulars do not use the force to attack directly--if we were to imagine these abilities as being meant to actually "slam" the target, or detonate, it would fundamentally violate that tenant).

 

The fact of the matter is that the designers had to create a class that doesn't, by the lore, use the force to cause damage. The closest the lore lets them come is to use the force to turn the environment itself into their weapon.

 

This applies just as much to our pure-force attacks as to our debris-based ones. They couldn't implement it so that, every time we used Disturbance, Telekinetic Wave, or Turbulence, the enemy went flying into a wall. Likewise, it wasn't feasible to create a game so cluttered with debris that Consulars would directly grab objects from around them.

 

They had an impossible task, and they did really, really well in solving it. Your solutions just further tax the lore in unacceptable ways, and completely ignore half of the problem. They aren't solutions at all.

 

If you are going to be irritated that a Consular can rip a droid out of a cliff side, or a boulder out of a ship's floor, you should be just as irritated that an attack that'd fundamentally designed not to do direct damage is... doing direct damage.

 

Seriously. It makes WAY more sense for Telekinetic Throw, in it's current form, to be damaging an opponent than for Disturbance to do so. Disturbance is essentially an air gun. It'll throw you, but it's not going to damage your body.

[Dyvim]

...Abandoning that is, frankly, abandoning what it has always been to be a Jedi. When you watch Yoda fight with the force, he does two things. His most common tactic is to pick up debris and lob it at his opponent...

 

Uh, are you nuts? What movies did you watch? Perhaps you should try watching yoda vs dooku and yoda vs palpitane, again. The current junk throwing embraces what we have seen SITH do, NOT jedi. You are completely backwards.

 

As far as what force energy is...for you to say it is a ball of air is silly. Lightside force energy is the jedi version of force energy, just like lightning is the sith version.

 

Also silly is to praise the current animations in any way shape or form. Pebblestorm is ridiculous in both concept and implementation. Does Qyzen carry arond an endless supply of gravel for us in his pack? Project is just as ridiculous in how it ignores the environment and then cheats with the magical, mystical ubiquitous buried junkyard at our feet, wherever we go.

 

Coming up with better ideas is not hard. Whoever did the consular side took the inquisitor side, then phoned it in.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Dyvim

[iDiggory]

Let's consider Yoda's duel with Sidious, since he IS the most powerful Consular we have in the most widely-known lore.

 

What does he practice? He uses energy absorption techniques (like Satele Shan uses against Malgus), he uses force push, and he throws objects. Sidious also throws objects, of course. It's just a basic aspect of the force.

 

What Yoda NEVER does, but Sidious does, is use the force in a form that is innately damaging.

 

Most of what Yoda does is absorb, mitigate, repel, or return Sidious' attacks. He only ever uses the Force to attack (on his own initiative) once--he uses a Force Push.

 

Why? Because it's the only option he had. To turn the force into a damaging form is a dark art.

 

There are, of course, retcons in TOR. There have to be. It's a fundamental part of the dark side of the force that it cannot heal--the very emotions that power the dark side turn it into a damaging force. The feelings that power the Light Side make it into a very, very different entity. It can shield, it can heal, it can relieve. But it will never be the case that touching the light side of the force will damage you. That's not the case with the dark side of the force.

 

You scoff at calling it air? Well, that's what it is. You use the Force to create a burst of highly-pressurized air. Watch Satele Shan's fight with Malgus. There's no question about what it is---she's using the force to control the particles of air--her force abilities are creating an extremely strong wind that are holding Malgus against the cliffside. What is the name of these abilities? TELEKINESIS. Telekinesis is, by definition, the control and movement of OBJECTS.

 

Sorry if you liked thinking that you were somehow turning the force into a tangible attack. But that's not how it works. Never has in the lore. Sith use their anger to directly change force energy into a form of attack, ionizing the air around them to produce an electrical attack. Consulars don't use dark side techniques, and fight by utlizing calmness and stillness, rather than passion. They cannot create a damaging force. The most they can do is try and alter the environment to fling their targets hard enough to do damage.

 

And, yes, Sith are fully capable of using Telekinesis. The point is that it's the middle ground. There's nothing "light" about Telekinesis. What makes the light-side powerful are their defensive/support techniques. Telekinesis is simple the only thing they have to fight with. Sith, by channeling anger, are able to actually use the force to create something intrinsically damaging.

[Dyvim]

Yoda threw ONE object...Singular, and that was a car that dooku had thrown at him first, so it was very much a reflective type situation. Other than that, what is your point? Jedi have energy attacks...force energy. It can manifest itself in different ways, even as green lightning. Point is there is nothing, anywhere that dictates that the jedi caster class in this game has to be slaved to throwing junk and rocks as the basis for its ranged abilitites. Just the opposite, junk/debris throwing is a hallmark of THE SITH. But in this game lightning really defines the inquisitor class and JUNK defines the consular class. That does absolutely nothing for alot of people, creates a huge coolness gap, and, as voiced by numerous people in this thread and others, going way back into beta, completely turns them off towards the class.

 

Dooku starts his duel with Yoda by throwing two things at him, then collapsing the ceiling on him. Yoda deflects them and says "I sense the darkside in you". Duh.

 

The animations, even if you like junk and rocks are VERY poorly done. This has all been outlined 1000 times. But many people want more than rocks and junk from their jedi caster class...because rocks are about as exciting as...rocks. And junk is in the same league. It is inelegant. It would be more civilized to use a blaster...lol

Edited January 27, 2012 by Dyvim

[Exoteis]

pumb for mirror balance !

[Kantor_omicron]

Animations fine. Just needs to be 20% cooler.

[Ohoni]

As far as what force energy is...for you to say it is a ball of air is silly. Lightside force energy is the jedi version of force energy, just like lightning is the sith version.

 

There is no such thing as "lightside Force energy," nor is there a "jedi equivalent" to Force lightning. A Jedi uses telekinetic force to move objects around, not blue fireballs. Sith do too. Sith use lightning to damage things, so can Jedi. All is one in the Force, but blue fireball attacks only exist in videogames.

 

Also silly is to praise the current animations in any way shape or form. Pebblestorm is ridiculous in both concept and implementation. Does Qyzen carry arond an endless supply of gravel for us in his pack?

 

It's meant to be based on generic rubble, that you're kicking up strong wind that is lifting debris from the ground and hurling it forwards.

 

Project is just as ridiculous in how it ignores the environment and then cheats with the magical, mystical ubiquitous buried junkyard at our feet, wherever we go.

 

It would be nice if it paid more attention to the terrain under your feet, for example making techy bits more common spawns when you're on techy terrain, and rocks and stuff more common when on natural terrain, but I imagine their system isn't set up for that. At least it's no longer always water heaters.

 

There are, of course, retcons in TOR. There have to be. It's a fundamental part of the dark side of the force that it cannot heal--the very emotions that power the dark side turn it into a damaging force. The feelings that power the Light Side make it into a very, very different entity. It can shield, it can heal, it can relieve.

 

It's actually the opposite. Force healing is a dark side ability, because it perverts the natural processes. It's a corrosive form of healing, forcing the body to heal damage in opposition to nature, but it does work. The light side can relieve pain and such, but is largely useless against significant damage.

[Dyvim]

There is no such thing as "lightside Force energy," nor is there a "jedi equivalent" to Force lightning. A Jedi uses telekinetic force to move objects around, not blue fireballs. Sith do too. Sith use lightning to damage things, so can Jedi. All is one in the Force, but blue fireball attacks only exist in videogames.

 

 

 

It's meant to be based on generic rubble, that you're kicking up strong wind that is lifting debris from the ground and hurling it forwards.

 

 

 

It would be nice if it paid more attention to the terrain under your feet, for example making techy bits more common spawns when you're on techy terrain, and rocks and stuff more common when on natural terrain, but I imagine their system isn't set up for that. At least it's no longer always water heaters.

 

 

 

It's actually the opposite. Force healing is a dark side ability, because it perverts the natural processes. It's a corrosive form of healing, forcing the body to heal damage in opposition to nature, but it does work. The light side can relieve pain and such, but is largely useless against significant damage.

 

I respect your posts, but we just disagree. I feel I am more rooted in the basic canon of the movies than you are, or the current state of this game is...if I didn't, then it wouldnt be as big a deal for me as it is....if you want to talk about things that only exist in video games, well then that would be a long long list of jedi skills. Bottom line, the consular classes are based on junk throwing. I find that reprehensible and fundamentally, canonically offensive. The darkside can heal, sidiious showed is that when he triaged anakin/vader. Hate is a fine line from other emotions. Hate sustains people, as much as any other emotion can....but the lightside is not useless against hate. It can absorb, reflect. It is truly the darksides equal in canon...just not this game yet, but I am trying my best to make that happen....lol

Edited January 27, 2012 by Dyvim

[KTheAlchemist]

I respect your posts, but we just disagree. I feel I am more rooted in the basic canon of the movies than you are, or the current state of this game is...if I didn't, then it wouldnt be as big a deal for me as it is....if you want to talk about things that only exist in video games, well then that would be a long long list of jedi skills. Bottom line, the consular classes are based on junk throwing. I find that reprehensible and fundamentally, canonically offensive. The darkside can heal, sidiious showed is that when he triaged anakin/vader. Hate is a fine line from other emotions. Hate sustains people, as much as any other emotion can....but the lightside is not useless against hate. It can absorb, reflect. It is truly the darksides equal in canon...just not this game yet, but I am trying my best to make that happen....lol

 

"Consular classes are based on junk throwing."

 

Again, 7 non-telekinesis vs. 1 telekinesis ability for balance shadows. 1-2 talents per tree that deal with Project vs. 18-20 talents per tree that do not. I'm sorry, but on this point, you're just talking completely out of left field and if you want to compose a sensible argument you need to let this notion go. I use Project every fight yes, but I use all of my other abilities even more. If consular specs were "based on" throwing things, I would have 4-5 abilities that I use frequently at the very least that throw things. At the very least 2-3. I do not. I have 1 that I use on a regular basis and one that I rarely use.

 

Throwing things for Jedi bothers you. We get that. But the class is not "based on" it and no matter how many times you say that, it will not make it true.

 

The bizarre insistence that it is, is hurting your overall argument.

 

SW:TOR exists in the EU. If you can't accept the EU, you can't accept SW:TOR. You're still too devoted to the movies and the movies alone as acceptable canon when informing something that exists, entirely, in the realm of the EU.

 

If we were to go by movie canon, and movie canon at utter face value with no interpretation as you seem to suggest we do, no Jedi class would throw anything. They wouldn't use "kinetic force projections", they wouldn't do anything but defensively return their opponents attacks back at them at best.

 

You seem to exist in this bizarre quantum state of both accepting and not accepting non-movie content, and it's rather baffling.

Edited January 27, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Ohoni]

Bottom line, the consular classes are based on junk throwing. I find that reprehensible and fundamentally, canonically offensive.

 

Look, what's the alternative? Is the alternative throwing blue fireballs around? Of course not. Any canonical conflicts that arise from Jedi using TK chucking to attack are magnified ten-fold when applied to Jedi shooting Hadouken left and right. There is absolutely NO canonical reference to any such ability, while there are plenty for Jedi using their TK to maneuver things in combat.

 

Ideally, purely in a vacuum, a range-based Jedi would be more about directly effecting the targets, with more moves dedicated to picking them up and flinging them around, because Jedi do that all the time in the canon, but that would be difficult to balance against a Sith class that is based on direct lightning attacks, since it would involve more of a CC impact, and more of a positioning impact. If we accept as a baseline that the moves given to the Consulars would be based on the idea of directly attacking via Force attacks, hitting the enemy for direct damage rather than indirectly damaging them by knocking them around the field, then flinging environmental objects at them is the best way to represent this.

 

Could they have implemented this better? Sure. DCUO has a fairly effective implementation of a TK attack, in that it basically causes a random throwable object to be lifted and tossed at the targeted enemy, but this has two problems, one, it's completely useless when no such objects are available, and two, the game was designed from the ground up for every character to be able to lift and throw objects, so the mechanic is ubiquitous, while in TOR it would only apply to one out of eight classes, and wouldn't be worth doing. CO had a similar TK mechanic as well, but it was extremely buggy and almost never worked right (though I haven't played in a while, maybe they fixed it). In either case, neither implementation could have been balanced against Force Lightning attacks.

 

They could have just given Consulars Force Lightning too, but that's even more canonically sketchy (although there are more canon examples of Jedi using Force Lightning than of using Hadouken).

[JhonnyRules]

That could be a very interesting change. Cause both animations have strong down points like others said.

[Marauder]

Project is poosibly my most favorite skill/ animation. The chunks of stuff slamming into opponents is awesome. To offset the 1 sec issue with shock, make it have a 1 second less cooldown, which would equal it out, but leave the animation alone. As a matter of fact, as you level it should pull out new and different stuff to toss.

 

The pebbles I agree is bad.

[Paradoxfoxx]

Easy solution to this for me would be replace project with saber throw.. (looks nicer, works on the same principle as project and sages finaly get to use there lightsaber)

 

Then give telekenetic throw the Ani of project, only have it throw 1 object per tic.

[KilmarFyrewynd]

Project is poosibly my most favorite skill/ animation. The chunks of stuff slamming into opponents is awesome. To offset the 1 sec issue with shock, make it have a 1 second less cooldown, which would equal it out, but leave the animation alone. As a matter of fact, as you level it should pull out new and different stuff to toss.

 

The pebbles I agree is bad.

 

This does not fix the PvP issue. One of the major problems is that Project can be EASILY avoided by enemy since there is a delay between casting and actually hitting. Against a Sith Assassin, they can cloak as SOON as they see the huge chunk of rotating debris. So what we can cast 1 second quicker? The first one is still spinning in the air trying to find an enemy it can't see and the chunk of debris will KEEP spinning until it dissipates. Meanwhile, the Sith Assassin is gearing up for some major DPS and you're just running in circles trying to find them while waiting for the floating piece of rock to disappear.

Edited January 27, 2012 by KilmarFyrewynd

[Misfit]

/sign