Dual-spec Coming and no changing advanced classes!

[Mamono]

Sounds like you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

"should not have gotten out of vanilla"? You do realize dual-spec was introduced in patch 3.1 which was after wrath released. And when did the subs start coming down from their high, thats right, in WRATH.

 

Not saying dual-spec itself hurt wow, but it was part of the whole "making the game easier" that you yourself admitted was hurting wow.

 

You are right about it being 3.1. My mistake, but you are wrong about it ruinse the game.

It does not make it more easy. It does not give you the gear for free to have dual-spec. It does not make the boss have less HP or that the boss is more easy to fight to have dual-spec.

 

Dual-spec is convinient. It does not make anything more easy.

It tuck me 1 month to LvL up to Lvl 50. I dont want to waist 1 month game time on my Alt doing the same quest over again. On a class that I alredy have.

If I want to reroll I want to reroll an other class, not the same class.

 

Dual-spec made nothing easy. Dual-spec does not play the game for you either if you think that.

[Siorac]

How do you know that? Do you have some inside infomation and knowledge about how they made the system?

 

But I guess it will not come atm. In a year or two maybe, but not now. My words are written to blind readers atm. But remember what i say now that in a few years Advanced Class will be of the past.

 

Why would I need inside information?

 

Right now the different ACs are like different classes, as I said above. Sentinel uses a different resource than Guardian, different type of armour, can dual wield unlike the Guardian etc. It does not make sense to switch between them. Makes even less sense to switch between Scoundrel (a predominantly melee class unless you heal) and Gunslinger (an entirely ranged class).

 

For this to even remotely make sense, they have to remove ACs entirely as switching between them is just stupid. As of right now, it would be a mockery of the entire game design. I'm not one to predict how it will change or not change in the future but WoW still has classes that can't do all three of DPS/Heal/Tank, right?

[Akirator]

 

Right now the different ACs are like different classes, as I said above.

 

Actually as far as the devs are concerned, they ARE different classes. They've even come out and said they consider them as such. Which is why they have no plans for allowing us to change AC.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Akirator

[chaosdefined]

Why would I need inside information?

 

Right now the different ACs are like different classes, as I said above. Sentinel uses a different resource than Guardian, different type of armour, can dual wield unlike the Guardian etc. It does not make sense to switch between them. Makes even less sense to switch between Scoundrel (a predominantly melee class unless you heal) and Gunslinger (an entirely ranged class).

 

For this to even remotely make sense, they have to remove ACs entirely as switching between them is just stupid. As of right now, it would be a mockery of the entire game design. I'm not one to predict how it will change or not change in the future but WoW still has classes that can't do all three of DPS/Heal/Tank, right?

 

Have you played WoW or that? Just because your arguments seem fairly invalid when compared to those.

 

Let's look at a Druid in WoW. You can choose the specs of Resto where you use Mana as a resource and gear with Spirit Stats. Or you could choose to go Feral, more specifically you could go Cat Form in which you use Energy as a resource and gear with Agility stats.

 

Two very different specs, with different gear and different resources and different spells. Yet we can dual-spec it.

 

It's not that different.

[MajikMyst]

Dual-spec is convinient.

 

This is why you are wrong.. No MMO should be concerned with convenient..

 

Dual speccing undermines the idea of even having a spec to begin with.. Why have a spec when we can just change at will.. Why not just get rid of the talent tree altogher?? Like WOW is about to do..

 

Dual speccing has contributed to the downfall of WOW.. But you will never believe it because you are still concerned about convenient.. Would you like the game to play itself for you to?? That would be even more convenient??

 

WOW doesn't have the story this game has.. So?? if it is more important for you to have a 2nd set of quests to do for a little over half of your leveling.. Then perhaps this game is not for you.. This game has story.. I will gladly do the quests over again for the story.. It isn't like we aren't going to be doing dailies and stuff?? I can't tell you how many times I did the same quest in WOW.. Countless times.. I have no clue why you are even worried about doing the same quests here.. It is like complaining that your car has wheels..

[Siorac]

Have you played WoW or that? Just because your arguments seem fairly invalid when compared to those.

 

Let's look at a Druid in WoW. You can choose the specs of Resto where you use Mana as a resource and gear with Spirit Stats. Or you could choose to go Feral, more specifically you could go Cat Form in which you use Energy as a resource and gear with Agility stats.

 

Two very different specs, with different gear and different resources and different spells. Yet we can dual-spec it.

 

It's not that different.

 

Well, in that case, WoW's system is stupid and I hope they won't copy it. And you still can't change from being a Druid to being a Mage?

 

Also, is there a WoW class that you can dual spec to be either melee or ranged? Because that's what you'd do with changing from Shadow to Sage or from Scoundrel to Gunslinger.

[Akirator]

Well, in that case, WoW's system is stupid and I hope they won't copy it. And you still can't change from being a Druid to being a Mage?

 

Also, is there a WoW class that you can dual spec to be either melee or ranged? Because that's what you'd do with changing from Shadow to Sage or from Scoundrel to Gunslinger.

 

Druids go Feral for melee, or Balance for casting/ranged. Shamans go Elemental for casting/ranged, or Enhancement for melee.

[MajikMyst]

Have you played WoW or that? Just because your arguments seem fairly invalid when compared to those.

 

Let's look at a Druid in WoW. You can choose the specs of Resto where you use Mana as a resource and gear with Spirit Stats. Or you could choose to go Feral, more specifically you could go Cat Form in which you use Energy as a resource and gear with Agility stats.

 

Two very different specs, with different gear and different resources and different spells. Yet we can dual-spec it.

 

It's not that different.

 

We can also use the example of the Warlock and the Mage.. Both use mana, both are ranged DPS, both wear cloth, and both use the same stats..

 

Is that not the same??

 

Blizzard designed their characters and classes the way they want.. Why can't Bioware?? Why can't we just accept their definition??

 

So his arguement is valid.. It shows that you can't hold either game to a standard.. Blizzard has never allowed class changes.. It is safe to say that Bioware should do the same.. I don't know why we have to argue about it..

Edited February 20, 2012 by MajikMyst

[chaosdefined]

 

Dual speccing has contributed to the downfall of WOW..

 

Source and relevant data please, otherwise this is just your own personal opinion.

 

Also, WoW is not getting rid of talent trees. They have been redesigned. You still pick a main spec and an off-spec, you get the talents involved in that spec it's just that in future instead of picking points in a tree, you will choose certain abilities to use.

 

Personally I'm not keen on the new talent tree for WoW. However that really has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

 

We're asking for the ability to dual-spec advanced classes, and currently you're arguing that it's too difficult because the AC's are too different. What we're trying to point out is that no, they're not. It's like arguing a Resto Druid and a Feral Druid are completely different classes and can in no way be dual-specced.

[Akirator]

Source and relevant data please, otherwise this is just your own personal opinion.

 

Also, WoW is not getting rid of talent trees. They have been redesigned. You still pick a main spec and an off-spec, you get the talents involved in that spec it's just that in future instead of picking points in a tree, you will choose certain abilities to use.

 

Personally I'm not keen on the new talent tree for WoW. However that really has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

 

We're asking for the ability to dual-spec advanced classes, and currently you're arguing that it's too difficult because the AC's are too different. What we're trying to point out is that no, they're not. It's like arguing a Resto Druid and a Feral Druid are completely different classes and can in no way be dual-specced.

 

And in that he's wrong, it's not too difficult or becuase they're too different. It's a design decision. And what you're asking for isn't dual-SPEC its dual-CLASS...which I am adamantly against.

[Madprophetus]

Not sure why they wouldn't include advanced class switching, considering that each advanced class is 0% different, story wise, from the other.

 

i'm confident it'll happen eventually, as bioware gets beaten back by the worst wow expansion yet (kung fu panda!).

 

Don't get me wrong, I despise wow and blizzard for what they've done to the genre. However, it's easy to see that a game that is very anti-player (reverse engineering, RNG problems, lack of a vision for Ilum, rampant client hacks, mirror classes not actually mirrors due to things like travel time, hardmode flashpoints not being a critical step between questing and raiding, lack of any meaningful world pvp, boring + stale talent treest) in this day and age is not going to remain successful for long.

 

Never should have let the team behind DAoC leave. Of course, they never should have sold mythic to EA in the first place.

 

Now it's looking like lucasarts smartly ejected from the project, rather than EA buying them out to retain full control over the IP.

[chaosdefined]

And what you're asking for isn't dual-SPEC its dual-CLASS...which I am adamantly against.

 

Why though? Does it affect the way you play the game yourself? Does it hamper your ability to conduct your character's action in a group? Does it somehow magically nerf your dps?

 

No. It doesn't affect you at all so why are you so against it?

[Siorac]

Druids go Feral for melee, or Balance for casting/ranged. Shamans go Elemental for casting/ranged, or Enhancement for melee.

 

Jeez, they really have no personality at all? They can do just about anything?

 

Dunno, that doesn't sit well with me. But hey, we'll have to agree to disagree here. I like unique classes better; I like that my Guardian is the only heavy armour-wearing melee class. It's different in WoW, okay, I'll concede that but I very much hope SWTOR won't follow suit and make all classes to be able to do everything and thus completely lack any uniqueness or personality.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Siorac

[Akirator]

Why though? Does it affect the way you play the game yourself? Does it hamper your ability to conduct your character's action in a group? Does it somehow magically nerf your dps?

 

No. It doesn't affect you at all so why are you so against it?

 

Actually it does, some people just call it "convenience" but it makes the game require less effort, which is another way of saying easier. And if we've all learned one thing it's that you start to make something even the tiniest bit easier, and you'll have an angry mob beating down your door to make everything else easier too.

 

And on down the line when they give in to more and more of these demands for less effort involved in accomplishing things, then when I'm looking for a challenge, it won't be there.

 

So the whole thing I'm objecting to is based on the principle.

[DorkTrooper]

Now it's looking like lucasarts smartly ejected from the project, rather than EA buying them out to retain full control over the IP.

 

Lucasarts never lets anyone buy them out and gain full control over the IP. Not gonna happen while Mr. Lucas is alive. Lucasarts micro-manages their IP.

 

And yes, the main class quest for each class is different. The side quests are not.

[chaosdefined]

Actually it does, some people just call it "convenience" but it makes the game require less effort, which is another way of saying easier. And if we've all learned one thing it's that you start to make something even the tiniest bit easier, and you'll have an angry mob beating down your door to make everything else easier too.

 

And on down the line when they give in to more and more of these demands for less effort involved in accomplishing things, then when I'm looking for a challenge, it won't be there.

 

So the whole thing I'm objecting to is based on the principle.

 

Bit of a difference between those complaining "Dungeons are too hard, I don't wanna pay attention when I'm playing I want free loot!"

 

And those of us saying we don't want to spend weeks/months levelling two characters up to 50 because we want to be able to heal and tank.

[MajikMyst]

Source and relevant data please, otherwise this is just your own personal opinion.

 

Also, WoW is not getting rid of talent trees. They have been redesigned. You still pick a main spec and an off-spec, you get the talents involved in that spec it's just that in future instead of picking points in a tree, you will choose certain abilities to use..

 

How exactly do you source living experiance?? Give me a break?? Why don't you source driving to work?? Or going to the park?? You can call it opinion if you want.. I stated the bases of mine repeatedly.. Where is yours??

 

 

No talent trees here!!

 

There is the talent calculater for Mist of Pandaria.. You see any talent trees there?? I sure don't.. Why else would they get rid of them because dual speccing rendered them useless?? The entire point of talent trees is to have a specific spec so characters are no exactly the same.. Also to give players some custumization in their characters.. Dual speccing goes against the very point to having a specc.. Why have a spec if you can change it at will??

 

You don't have to agree.. But I at least stated my views and experiences.. You are also clearly wrong about WOW's future talent trees..

 

Selecting a skill at lvls 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, and 90 doesn't constitute skill trees.. Nor does it constitute a spec.. If you can even call it that..

[chaosdefined]

How do you source driving? Well you can bring up plenty of statistics and facts on how certain things contribute to dangerous roads. After all that's where you're trying to go with this right? You're saying that Dual-Spec is causing WoW to die, yet you can't provide any proof whatsoever that your claim is nothing more than your personal opinion being thrown around as fact.

 

As for "no specs" you see that little part at the side of the talents that says "Specialisation." that's actually the big word for Spec, incase you didn't know. Click on a 'spec' and oh look...specific skills pertaining to that specialisation.

 

Honestly man, if you're gonna argue something, do your research and make sure you understand it.

 

(amusingly, I'm an alt-o-holic so I'm at odds with myself as to whether I want Dual-AC or not.)

Edited February 20, 2012 by chaosdefined

[Akirator]

Bit of a difference between those complaining "Dungeons are too hard, I don't wanna pay attention when I'm playing I want free loot!"

 

And those of us saying we don't want to spend weeks/months levelling two characters up to 50 because we want to be able to heal and tank.

 

Sorry, if I wasn't clear on my point, but I mean it always starts with the small stuff. Yea, today it's just "But I don't want to actually spend the time developing multiple characters for multiple roles" and they caved on that and whatever string of small demands the entitlement crowd comes up with next.

 

Then they'll just find it alot easier to give in when they start demanding something else, like "I don't want to take the effort to learn my class or the encounter so I can actually down the newest raid boss, make it easier!"

[Siorac]

Bit of a difference between those complaining "Dungeons are too hard, I don't wanna pay attention when I'm playing I want free loot!"

 

And those of us saying we don't want to spend weeks/months levelling two characters up to 50 because we want to be able to heal and tank.

 

If that's what you want, why don't you just ask for one advanced class that has all three roles in its talent trees? Makes slightly more sense than AC switching.

 

If everyone is capable to change from a dual-wielding, medium-armor wearing Sentinel into a single-saber, heavy armour-wearing Guardian with one click... you really find nothing wrong with that?

Edited February 20, 2012 by Siorac

[Mamono]

And in that he's wrong, it's not too difficult or becuase they're too different. It's a design decision. And what you're asking for isn't dual-SPEC its dual-CLASS...which I am adamantly against.

 

It is not a dual class.

 

A Bounty Hunter is a Bounty hunter no matter how you look at it. Do you get a new class quest line if you go merc instead of Power?

 

You get your basic Bounty Hunter abilities no matter if you pick Merc or Power. They are your core abilities that works on both sides. Then you have your specialisation abilities.

 

Please link me to where EA/BW is stating that advanced class in reality is two classes. Please give me a link.

 

Her, let me link the official link to class info.

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes

 

Look, 4 classes on each side.

 

Now you conter this by linking to an other official side where they stat something ells please.

[chaosdefined]

If that's what you want, why don't you just ask for one advanced class that has all three roles in its talent trees? Makes slightly more sense than AC switching.

 

If everyone is capable to change from a dual-wielding, medium-armor wearing Sentinel into a single-saber, heavy armour-wearing Guardian with one click... you really find nothing wrong with that?

 

Like I said, Druids in WoW can switch from Dual Weilding, ranged casting, spirit-wearing Resto Druids to staff weilding, melee combat, agility-wearing Feral Druids easily enough.

[CzaplaM]

So, since TOR is the first MMO I've actually kept with past the trial period, could someone explain what dual spec actually means? I'd like to understand what the hoopla is about.

 

Reading through the first 10 pages hasn't given me an answer.

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, I'm a noob, blah blah blah, don't care.

 

I like dual-spec because I am a big PvPer. Most people just PvE and they don't realize how annoying it gets switching back and forth.

 

Either way I'm shocked these people are still fighting, and what for? lol.

[Mamono]

If that's what you want, why don't you just ask for one advanced class that has all three roles in its talent trees? Makes slightly more sense than AC switching.

 

If everyone is capable to change from a dual-wielding, medium-armor wearing Sentinel into a single-saber, heavy armour-wearing Guardian with one click... you really find nothing wrong with that?

 

Why whould it be wrong? He still has to grind for the armor. He still have to work his arse to get the gear.

He cant just respec and think it will work out well.

 

It is the same with the dual-spec that will come. Changing spec from dps to tank and not having the gear will not help you alot, will it?

Or using healing gear for dps in a raid? or dps gear for healing in a raid?

 

Yes it is OK for him to change, because it will not help him anything if he does not have the gear for it. And it is not like he can change spec in mid-combat, or change gear in mid-combat.

[Akirator]

It is not a dual class.

 

A Bounty Hunter is a Bounty hunter no matter how you look at it. Do you get a new class quest line if you go merc instead of Power?

 

You get your basic Bounty Hunter abilities no matter if you pick Merc or Power. They are your core abilities that works on both sides. Then you have your specialisation abilities.

 

Please link me to where EA/BW is stating that advanced class in reality is two classes. Please give me a link.

 

Her, let me link the official link to class info.

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes

 

Look, 4 classes on each side.

 

Now you conter this by linking to an other official side where they stat something ells please.

 

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

Thats from here: http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

Now, you will probably tell me I'm wrong, but I take that to mean that each AC is basically a different class, not in story sense like you seem to be focusing on, but a DESIGN standpoint.