Stealth

[just_the_flu]

I know I may be late bringing this up, but last night i thought of something. Besides the obvious (being invisible) there is no benefit being in stealth mode.

I know we have a couple abilities that require stealth mode to use (spike and mind trap, i may have missed one or two).

 

For a 'stealth' class there is no benefit in stealth mode. By this i mean we have no abilities or talents that increase damage done while in stealth mode, for example we have no 'opener' move.

 

I think we should have a talent (most likely in deception) that increases damage done by x% while in stealth mode. OR even change Maul to increase damage done by x%(50% maybe) while in stealth mode. and if not increase damage by a percent make it 100% crit factor.

 

I do use maul as an opener because as darkness its the only time i get to use the ability and besides that I really don't know what other ability to start with lol (maul imo just fits the 'opener' part).

 

It would be nice if being in stealth mode gave us a benefit in combat and not just to "not be seen".

[Vincealor]

For me stealth has a purpose. I can pick my fights and i can get the jump on someone. Its also fun with my spec being invisible then pulling people into the acid pools on huttball.

[Fujah]

Its awesome and throw it with Force Shroud and Force Cloak and it makes my day. And even better while leveling.

[just_the_flu]

yes i understand all how you can make stealth benefit you, as u say pick your fights etc...

 

I'm saying that there should be some actual benefit to stealth, like a mechanic, as i mentioned above.

 

I feel like were missing a talent or ability that makes use of being in stealth, for example increased damage. I don't think this would be "over powered" because in a normal situation you'd only be able to take advantage of this twice at the most.

 

Besides being 'invisible' there is no benefit to stealth mode. I'm suggesting that maybe there could be a benefit (combat wise) in being in stealth.

[hikotai]

You clearly aren't much of a tactician in your fights if you think stealth gives you no benefit. It doesn't need to produce a number. Just the "can't be seen unless I'm right beside you" part is already great.

 

In PvP I can pick out who I want to jump on, and I'm almost guaranteed the first strike. In PvE, I can skip past most of the stuff I don't feel like fighting, and focus on the primary objective. (Unless I do feel like fighting the extra stuff, of course). To me, those are huge benefits by themselves.

 

Edit: Your second pot ninja'd mine, but I'm sticking to my point.

Besides, there's this talent called Dark Embrace. That's a beneficial mechanic last time I checked.

Edited February 10, 2012 by hikotai

[Fujah]

The thing you get, the ability you want with stealth is, wait for it -- invisibility.

[just_the_flu]

there's this talent called Dark Embrace. That's a beneficial mechanic last time I checked.

 

Yes dark embrace is beneficial to some extent. You only regen force while in stealth which imo isn't great(if you can stealth your not in combat). Saying that, darkswell makes it a little better but you still have to use blackout to get the bonus out-of-stealth mode which IIRC uses a GCD. It's good don't get me wrong, it's just not 'great' if you know what i mean.

 

IMO it would be nice to see some sort of combat related bonus to being in stealth (not just force regen).

[just_the_flu]

The thing you get, the ability you want with stealth is, wait for it -- invisibility.

 

For Real?

When this happen?

[insendial]

Assassins are not a stealth class. Assassins are a glass cannon/tank class (oh the irony, I know!) with Stealth so that they can close on targets without getting blown the **** up.

 

Stealth is our gap closer. Our Force Leap.

Edited February 10, 2012 by insendial

[hikotai]

Yes dark embrace is beneficial to some extent. You only regen force while in stealth which imo isn't great(if you can stealth your not in combat). Saying that, darkswell makes it a little better but you still have to use blackout to get the bonus out-of-stealth mode which IIRC uses a GCD. It's good don't get me wrong, it's just not 'great' if you know what i mean.

 

IMO it would be nice to see some sort of combat related bonus to being in stealth (not just force regen).

 

The thing you have to understand is two-fold.

 

1) Dark Embrace continues for 6 seconds after leaving stealth.

 

2) Higher force regen is essentially raising your dps temporarily. You can sustain the higher cost skills longer, thus greater output: i.e. burst potential.

 

Also, don't underestimate the value of force cloaking out of a tight spot. Since this wil trigger Dark Embrace as well, it helps ensure your force returns to a solid amount after dodging an emergency.

[Technohic]

Stealth definitely has its tactical advantages, and some gifts mentioned like dark embrace, but those are available to all or easily had early in a tree. I still think deception tree should be able to enhance it further as it goes along up the tree.

[Angina]

The dark embrace talent also works as a PVE burst or PVP burst. You force cloak, and then have increased force regen for 6 seconds to spam thrash without having to use any force builders.

 

I use this when I have all dots rolling, I hit force cloak, overcharge saber and my crit/surge trinket and thrash/assassinate until things are dead.

[Tooslick]

I agree our openers are extremely weak and poorly fleshed out.

 

 

That said, stealth is not useless whatsoever.

 

Opener wishlist:

 

A longer stun, 2s spike is weak sauce

 

A high damage move, a la ambush, that can only be used in stealth from behind

 

A dot or bleed that bypasses armor, perhaps generates a slow, or silence for a few seconds

 

An armor debuff (useable outside maul)

[Fujah]

Spike: We do have other longer stuns I think 2 seconds is fine. It interrupts spell casting, time to cast on him/her and can spec into getting to use it out of stealth. Its basically a nice fk you spell that gets the caster off his/hers rhythm. I like to damage from afar, as they get closer knock 'em down and put more damage down. Great spell.

[Pijinz]

As Darkness I don't mind not being dependent on stealth, and I very much enjoy the tactical advantage that having stealth brings (it can be a nice pulling tool combined with Force pull). Still I understand what you mean. We're really missing an opener. It doesn't hurt me as much, but Deception could do with some more stealth based tools; Dark Embrace and Darkswell are along the right lines, but fairly minor really. A good solid stealth opener higher up in the tree would suit Deception well.

[adamacl]

I gotta say i myself have thought heavy on this and i do for one agree with you maybe maul does 100% more damage when we are in stealth or in a 100% crit chance or maybe sort spike out cos the 2 second stun and 35 focus cost isnt worth using i know tank spec gets a talent to us it out of stealth but as a stealth only move i was very surprised to not have a talent to make it cost less focus or stun for longer.

 

 

 

100% That a oppener would be great

[Astarica]

If you're stealthed you usually already have 100 Force so the regen while in stealth is irrelvent. Dark Embrace is exactly 24 Force (4 Force/second for 6 seconds), but problem is when you come out of stealth, you're very likely to get hit by a CC since the enemy might assume you're an Op. If you're CCed then the extra regen isn't doing you any good unless you opened with say, Maul.

 

Due to the lack of an opener stealth doesn't get you meaningful advantage unless you're trying to sneak up on someone on top of a ramp in Huttball, but in that case you could be walking for a very long time too. In fact the biggest advantage of stealth is that the enemy might not realize you've no meaningful advantage coming out of stealth and thus CC you too early.

[insendial]

If you're stealthed you usually already have 100 Force so the regen while in stealth is irrelvent. Dark Embrace is exactly 24 Force (4 Force/second for 6 seconds), but problem is when you come out of stealth, you're very likely to get hit by a CC since the enemy might assume you're an Op. If you're CCed then the extra regen isn't doing you any good unless you opened with say, Maul.

 

Due to the lack of an opener stealth doesn't get you meaningful advantage unless you're trying to sneak up on someone on top of a ramp in Huttball, but in that case you could be walking for a very long time too. In fact the biggest advantage of stealth is that the enemy might not realize you've no meaningful advantage coming out of stealth and thus CC you too early.

 

If Assassins don't have a from-stealth opener, then what is Spike? Two of three specs can only use it from Stealth.

[Lightvent]

If Assassins don't have a from-stealth opener, then what is Spike? Two of three specs can only use it from Stealth.

 

I think Deception should have gotten the Eye of the Storm talent, or give us more of an incentive to use Spike from Stealth--maybe lower's their armor. Something minor.

 

Spike is a pretty sad opener. It's not bad, its meh... At least we have something. Global Cool Down is 1.5s, so hopefully they landed right there and not X meters behind you or in front of you.

 

Cost: 30 Force

Cooldown: 30s

Damage: 445-509 Energy Damage (Missing a Champ waist, 1 implant)

Duration: 2s, Knockdown

[insendial]

I think Deception should have gotten the Eye of the Storm talent, or give us more of an incentive to use Spike from Stealth--maybe lower's their armor. Something minor.

 

Spike is a pretty sad opener. It's not bad, its meh... At least we have something. Global Cool Down is 1.5s, so hopefully they landed right there and not X meters behind you or in front of you.

 

Cost: 30 Force

Cooldown: 30s

Damage: 445-509 Energy Damage (Missing a Champ waist, 1 implant)

Duration: 2s, Knockdown

 

I wouldn't mind if EotS was made baseline, but it does make sense to put it in Darkness because they don't get any other form of CC as part of their spec. Deception gets Low Slash and Madness gets Creeping Terror.

[Bovinity]

I like stealth just the way it is. The advantage of choosing your time, place, position, etc is strong enough in and of itself.

 

The other issue is that if you make stealth "stronger" (via abilities, numbers, etc) then you start to make the class essentially reliant on stealth in order to perform. I'd rather have stealth be a tactical bonus than have fights determined by whether or not I got caught in/out of stealth.

[Delillo]

As some have pointed out, for deception assassins, stealth provides much of your energy regen and empowers much of your burst out of stealth.

 

Just a few things I've learned.

 

Something about the way the game is coded pushes you out of combat when you deliver a killing blow. It doesn't always work, but you should be in the habit of hitting stealth the instant your target turns from red to gray. Hot key-ing stealth is a must. I often find I can re-stealth even in a large group of enemies in the immediate aftermath of a kill. True of all specs, but more important for deception bc of the energy regen and the ability to use spike.

 

Spike is great when your target is engaged with another foe. Its poor as an opener for a true 1v1. The damage is poor and the resolve you generate can cost you on the low slash or electrocute you will need later in a longer 1v1 fight. Better to open with voltaic slash and begin your rotation.

 

The 15% movement rate increase from obfuscation is under-rated. This plus the better stealth it provides translates into a tremendous amount of freedom of movement- which is what deception is all about.

 

The 2 points in static cling is under-rated. I see deception specs without this and scratch my head. 12 second slow that doesn't generate resolve on a 6 second cooldown? This is almost a tree defining ability. And an essential part of any melee train. With static cling no one is getting away from you. They may stop and kill you, but they aren't getting away. (short of force leap or something...)

 

I think the game is pretty well balanced. You should have to make some sizable sacrifices to have a max DPS toon. But that's what you want in a competitive group PvP situation. The deception assassin is great at creating 2v1 situations where the target dies and dies fast. You wont always put up the highest damage in a WZ but you should be the favorite for KBs each time- because you actually kill folks.

[insendial]

As some have pointed out, for deception assassins, stealth provides much of your energy regen and empowers much of your burst out of stealth.

 

Just a few things I've learned.

 

Something about the way the game is coded pushes you out of combat when you deliver a killing blow. It doesn't always work, but you should be in the habit of hitting stealth the instant your target turns from red to gray. Hot key-ing stealth is a must. I often find I can re-stealth even in a large group of enemies in the immediate aftermath of a kill. True of all specs, but more important for deception bc of the energy regen and the ability to use spike.

 

Spike is great when your target is engaged with another foe. Its poor as an opener for a true 1v1. The damage is poor and the resolve you generate can cost you on the low slash or electrocute you will need later in a longer 1v1 fight. Better to open with voltaic slash and begin your rotation.

 

The 15% movement rate increase from obfuscation is under-rated. This plus the better stealth it provides translates into a tremendous amount of freedom of movement- which is what deception is all about.

 

The 2 points in static cling is under-rated. I see deception specs without this and scratch my head. 12 second slow that doesn't generate resolve on a 6 second cooldown? This is almost a tree defining ability. And an essential part of any melee train. With static cling no one is getting away from you. They may stop and kill you, but they aren't getting away. (short of force leap or something...)

 

I think the game is pretty well balanced. You should have to make some sizable sacrifices to have a max DPS toon. But that's what you want in a competitive group PvP situation. The deception assassin is great at creating 2v1 situations where the target dies and dies fast. You wont always put up the highest damage in a WZ but you should be the favorite for KBs each time- because you actually kill folks.

 

In PvP, hotkeying all useful abilities is a must.

[JuicyFruits]

I like stealth just the way it is. The advantage of choosing your time, place, position, etc is strong enough in and of itself.

 

The other issue is that if you make stealth "stronger" (via abilities, numbers, etc) then you start to make the class essentially reliant on stealth in order to perform. I'd rather have stealth be a tactical bonus than have fights determined by whether or not I got caught in/out of stealth.

 

My thoughts exactly. I was pleasantly surprised when I found that my sin "could" use stealth, but didn't rely on it to be 100% effective. Well, lets say 95%, dark embrace is nice.

[Lightvent]

I wouldn't mind if EotS was made baseline, but it does make sense to put it in Darkness because they don't get any other form of CC as part of their spec. Deception gets Low Slash and Madness gets Creeping Terror.

 

What's the purpose of Spike in the Darkness tree? It shouldn't be there just because they don't have a CC. Wither is a great AoE slow, but it has a purpose. Low Slash also allows for positioning for a Maul w/ proc. Creeping Terror is a dot + 2s root (our Force Slow: 6s duration 12s CD without talents, neither generate resolve). Spike only works on mobs not immune to incapacitate, so its useless on bosses; so you also miss out on the talent in that tier that increases damage done to targets effected by Spike or Electrocute (makes 2 of the 4 talents in that tier almost useless in PvE).

 

I also wouldn't mind either if EotS was on the base line.

 

I see Spike as part of Deception-as a "lockdown". Spike just gives us more of an edge against other melee classes, and even more so on ranged, if we could use it out of stealth (it also doesn't generate much resolve). A trade off for being so squishy. Deceptions are at their best 1v1. Assassin should be making other classes cry in 1v1's. 2+ players focus a DPS Assassin and the Assassin would probably run/die.

 

But maybe I'm wrong. Just my opinion.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Lightvent