Sykologist Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Erm.. there are no people that stay, cause you cannot leave.. lol. Then your "fixes" are ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Then your "fixes" are ridiculous. No, it's just like in League of Legends for example... And the system obviously works well in other games. People stop leaving cause it does not make sense. Edited February 10, 2012 by skyflash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykologist Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 No, it's just like in Leage of Legends for example... And the system obviously works well in other games. People stop leaving cause it does not make sense. Yes, but in League of Legends, you aren't penalized after the match is over. League of Legends also depends on 5v5 not 8v8. Leaving makes sense for those who are valor rank 60, and the only incentive to stay is for a win for the weeklys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandtheMan Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Answer to Question 1.: Because most people cannot cope with losing or being associated with anything negative. These are usually people who IRL are already associated with losing and therefore seek the opposite in videogames. Extra Credit Question 2.: Not going to answer...I dont need the extra credit. Here is a better solution than adding new daily missions that reward people for doing the same things they do to farm medals...add stat tracking. One of the stats tracked: WZ Matches Quit. Let everyone else be able to view your stats. Sure...it wont stop all the quiters, but it will stop a good deal of them...not to mention we can then point out all the quiters so we know not to team up with them. Edited February 10, 2012 by StrandtheMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethyrprime Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) You can't have it both ways. Either helping your team win is good or doing nothing to help your team win other than taking up a slot is good. It is black and white. My suggestion is two fold, 1 part (the main part) is objective based capturing points, scoring or aiding someone who does counts toward your progression, with the added bonus of doing enough damage, healing and protecting during the matches for either a bonus reward or as part of the main quest. The very things you SHOULD be doing to help your team win. Everything you said has no logical nor factual basis. You are defending your right to afk in the warzone and still get credit. There is no grey area here. Either you are supporting the afkers ability to get as much credit as the person who is scoring and capping, or you are not. The very idea that a merit based system is easier to exploit or "Trade" than a win based one is also very naive. It is easier and faster to sit and do nothing to let the other side win than it is to get medals while accomplishing objectives to get the same credit. To attempt to argue otherwise is a fools errand. I constantly top the boards AND am the #1 objective oriented person on my team. The two contrary to popular belief are not diametrically opposed. They are parallel in most cases. Will there always be people who are off farming damage, heals, medals? Sure but they won't be completing their quests unless they are doing it within the vicinity of an objective and actually participating in the objectives themselves. Edited February 12, 2012 by Aethyrprime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yes, but in League of Legends, you aren't penalized after the match is over. League of Legends also depends on 5v5 not 8v8. Leaving makes sense for those who are valor rank 60, and the only incentive to stay is for a win for the weeklys. In LoL you are penalized. You cannot join a game right away after AFKing. Currently leaving makes sense for anyone that wants to complete dailys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Garbage. Before I tear this apart, let me answer your two questions. 1. Why do people leave warzones? I shouldn't have to point this out, but there are a multitude of reasons why people leave warzones. What you fail to comprehend is that people don't suddenly stop leaving WZ simply because they have their daily PVP quests. They will leave regardless if they feel the match isn't going to be worth their time. The primary factor is simply they no longer see any value in remaining in that particular WZ. The catalyst may be the team is winning or losing, or it may not be. For example, you join a Huttball match that's 5-0 , your side losing. At best there's only going to be a couple of minutes left if one side is being so dominated. You can't achieve your daily, and you can't even get any Valor worth speaking of. The person may have connection issues. The person may have a child that needs attending to. Who cares? Your thesis "the only people who leave are those who want a win for daily/weekly" is , frankly, not well thought out. For extra credit you can try this one on for size too: 2. Why do people care about winning or losing when the difference in terms of valor/commendations/xp/money is hardly noticeable between a win and a loss? *gingerly holds temples* I am continually amazed at how people assume that simplifying something complex by stripping away all variables will lead you to the correct answer. There are going to be some people who leave because they only care about the daily, not winning or losing. These people are going to use your system, cap one objective, hit some people,then leave. If PVP is not ENGAGING, if it is not FUN, if it does not make people WANT to play REGARDLESS of the stupid daily, then people will leave whenever they start losing because losing isn't fun. Make dailies/weeklies based on individual performance rather than team wins. I would be willing to stay past my 5 minute rule if it was done this way. As it stands now, it is futile to stay with a team that you know will lose because your team mates don't know what PvP is all about who to attack or how to accomplish objectives. The problem with this is threefold 1) It encourages people to not even try to focus on winning or even properly PVPing. It's the same issue we have with Ilum NOW. People will simply go into WZ, trade the appropriate damage, stand around objectives, let people run the ball for free, then leave. It's the worst possible design and the fact that everyone else in the thread is laughing at you should have tipped you off to that. 2) It doesn't address the core issues with PVP -- that very literally, if the PVP doesn't make things engaging for winners and losers then losers will leave. Warhammer at least got this right, you could be horribly outnumbered but defending was still a blast. Right now, if you have a pre-made vs. a PUG of mixed levels or worse, a premade of 50's vs a pug of fresh 50's, one side is going to get ROLFstomped. Regardless of daily status, no one likes going into match after match and being pwned. 3) Worst of all, and most glaringly obvious, it rewards no-attention span skill-less scrubs rather than encouraging teamwork and forcing people to develop communications and coordinate their effort. It turns a PUG into 8 people doing their own thing. If you can't get things done as a team, you expect to succeed on your own? YOU might, but others on the team won't. And will leave. And you have solved nothing because your solution is crafted for you personally, and not the game. I'm sure you think you are smarter than everyone. You are not. If you are in gifted classes, it just shows either your parents or your school system cannot tell the difference between intellect and potential. Edited February 10, 2012 by LogicalPremise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kheldor Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Stop trying to treat symptoms instead of the real problems! It's a really easy fix! Make dailies/weeklies based on individual performance rather than team wins. I would be willing to stay past my 5 minute rule if it was done this way. As it stands now, it is futile to stay with a team that you know will lose because your team mates don't know what PvP is all about who to attack or how to accomplish objectives. Examples: Daily/weekly Warzone quests: Complete x objectives in a warzone, carry ball across goal line or capture x objectives. And Complete one of the following: Deal x damage to other players in warzones. or Heal x amount to other players in warzones. or Stop x amount of damage from team mates with protection. & Even requiring all of these would make my time spent doing dailies/weeklies worth it to not leave my team as my individual performance is almost always in the top 3 for each category depending on what class I am playing on. Usually I am #1 in what ever main role I'm trying to fill, damage on dps, healing on healer, protection on a tank. Leave the commendations/valor bonuses for team performance as it is (win/loss) and remove the ridiculous requirement to win a warzone match to accomplish a daily/weekly quest. Before you can QQ and be taken seriously in this thread you must answer this question: 1. Why do people leave warzones? For extra credit you can try this one on for size too: 2. Why do people care about winning or losing when the difference in terms of valor/commendations/xp/money is hardly noticeable between a win and a loss? 1. Because they need x wins to complete their daily/weekly 2. Because they need x wins to complete their daily/weekly I'd go for this wholeheartedly. The server I recently moved to with some buddies (from Empire side on Sith Meditation Server to Republic side on a server to be left nameless) is pretty horrible at pvp. Waiting 3 days now to win a match to finish my daily on 3 characters (out of probably 20 matches total). People bail on every match, then other poor suckers come in to a match already dying on the vine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Congrats! You've proved penalties are , indeed , stupid. I never suggested otherwise. I suggested that your planned replacement is, indeed, equally stupid. For someone who claims to be bright you have remarkably poor reading comprehension, unless of course you can quote in my posting ANYWHERE that I suggested penalties of any kind would solve anything. I submit that if every major MMO for years has not solved the dilemma, then .. just maybe ... it's not possible to do so. Then again, my ego is clearly not as massive as yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yeah, just that you obviously dont even understand the implications of the stupid idea you had. A real solution is to keep players in the same BG. As soon as you stop people from joining a different battleground as long as the old one is running, people will stop leaving battlegrounds just because they want to increase their wins/hour ratio. Because.. they CAN'T! Players should not have the choice to either play the BG to the end, or join a new one where they might win, they should have the choice to either play it to the end, or not play at all. Daily PvP Quest objectives that motivate players to not try to win but do damage and heal are insane and will ruin PvP in general. Get over it, you are not gifted, you are the opposite. Your idea is dumb. Get over it, please. I beg you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Just make leaving impossible. If you log back in, you will be in the same BG until it ends. If you AFK, you get nothing. If you are AFK / offline when the BG ends you get a 15 mins ban from BGs (logged in time) Players will not be queued into games that are running. If the team runs out of people, they lose. That way leavers have to either log in a twink or go AFK, neither will help their main to become better. Or more likely they will just log out and do something else. The majority of the playerbase does not have hours upon hours to play video games all day, these same people want to finish their daily / weekly too, if they cannot then they will not advance their toon and they will stop playing altogether. The match maker is the problem and what needs to be fixed, adding a debuff for people who leave without fixing why they are leaving will just cause more afks and less people playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The match maker is the problem and what needs to be fixed, adding a debuff for people who leave without fixing why they are leaving will just cause more afks and less people playing. Yes you are right, but I wrote that in my other post already... see the 4 step fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 In all honesty, there is really no way to stop leavers in warzones. People will leave whether its about their teammates, getting pwned, etc. Leavers will always happen. If you make a long duration penalty however, it forces the player to play through the remaining session. Making a penalty like 30 minutes or an hour would definitely stop leavers. Those that left, probaly needed to leave due to rl concerns. An avid PvPer will not compensate whatever minutes remaining they have in a losing game for a 30-1hr penalty of not being able to PvP. Those that actually leave for the QQ reasons, well there just sore losers, you cant do anything about it. It will happen, and you cant stop it. I do like the idea however on granting little bonuses to the losers in the warzone. Might give a little incentive or hope to fight back and win the game. But then..it wouldnt be fair for the winners in that perspective. So yea hard to say! No, adding a penalty will not help anything all we will get is people logging out to do something else, more afkers and less people doing warzones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Not one major title that has ever instituted a leaving policy has ever actually solved the problem through use of a penalty. The problem still exists despite the penalties existence. To extend your analogy, in the real world, when you commit a crime you are subject to punishment. Yet people still commit crimes. Using your logic, then, all punishment should be done away with. I think you can see that this doesn't make sense. Adding some kind of deterrent to leaving warzones would be just that - a deterrent - it would at best reduce the number of people leaving, as a previous poster mentioned. However, even if it would not eliminate the problem, reducing it is a worthy goal. I agree with other posters that your original idea is a terrible one. We need ways to motivate people to win warzones or no one will even try. One idea that's been suggested in other threads is some form of combination of warzone Completions and warzone Wins. Something like: "Earn 9 warzone completion points. Defeats are worth 1 and wins are worth 3." This would encourage people to stay in the warzone, since that's the only way to get points, and would also encourage victory, since completing via wins is much faster than via losses. Lastly, your tendency to resort to ad hominem attacks undercuts any validity your arguments might have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrYcle Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yeah we need a real hard penalty so people like you are really hurt when leaving a game. Here is the real fix: 1. Make PvP fair in grouping and equipment - 2. Fix the AFK timer / crashes and disconnect issues 3. Make people stick to a BG until its over 4. Implement harsh penalties on leaving or AFKing. Fixed. 1. Stupid Idea. Diminishes effort to obtain gear/valor rank etc. 2. Bug fixes wont fix pvp... try again 3. Stupid idea... wont keep people in losing game with current mechanics. Try again. 4. Stupid idea... With current commendation gain/loss versus leaving early in hopes of getting on a team with semi-intelligent individuals currently means its more time efficient to leave, adding penalties will further break the existing broken system. OP you dont need to keep feeding these trolls. Your ideas would work... a simpler solution would be to just change the daily mechanics though to include an option for playing x number of games total OR 3 wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSaberMaster Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't agree with a penalty for leaving a warzone, but I would tolerate it only if they implement these two changes: 1. They allow you to pick which warzones you want to queue for. The only one I have ever bailed on is Huttball. I can't stand it. I have played it. Tried to like it, but don't. I would rather lose every macth in Voidstar or Alderaan than play one match of Huttball. 2. They change the lockout timer so that when you finally load into Voidstar, you aren't kicked out because you didn't load into the warzone fast enough. I can't count how many times I have been booted because of that stupid timer. Change those two things and I wouldn't care if they made penalties for bailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellapain Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) The real problem is a flawed system design. If the quest was based on individual performance people wouldn't be leaving your team so often as to make you come Q_Q here in the forums about it. They'd stick around win or lose because they got what they came for. You really are naive if you think your system wouldn't be exploited. I can see it now. Nobody cares to win so lets all gather around and trade kills/heals/objectives so we can farm our virtual gears more quickly. ohhh wait... I already see this in Ilum... deja vu or what? Edited February 10, 2012 by Hellapain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 You must be trolling because if you read the OP it clearly states "Must complete OBJECTIVES & Personal Performance of one role" How would making the completion of objectives a competition between your own team be a good thing? In all warzones, there are times where it is advantageous to let someone else on your team complete the objective while you run interference for them - why should that be discouraged? Also, please stop automatically labeling anyone who disagrees with you a "bad" or a "QQ'er." In my experience that tends to limit the possibility of intelligent debate on a subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethyrprime Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) You really are naive if you think your system wouldn't be exploited. I can see it now. Nobody cares to win so lets all gather around and trade kills/heals/objectives so we can farm our virtual gears more quickly. ohhh wait... I already see this in Ilum... deja vu or what? How would making the completion of objectives a competition between your own team be a good thing? In all warzones, there are times where it is advantageous to let someone else on your team complete the objective while you run interference for them - why should that be discouraged? Also, please stop automatically labeling anyone who disagrees with you a "bad" or a "QQ'er." In my experience that tends to limit the possibility of intelligent debate on a subject. Omg, you can't be serious? /facepalm First we got the guy above who's saying that team A will let team B trade off wins/whatever, and now yoursaying that competition between team mates for accomplishing a goal is bad? LMFAO.. you must be kidding.. You can't have it both ways. Either helping your team win is good or doing nothing to help your team win other than taking up a slot is good. It is black and white. My suggestion is two fold, 1 part (the main part) is objective based capturing points, scoring or aiding someone who does counts toward your progression, with the added bonus of doing enough damage, healing and protecting during the matches for either a bonus reward or as part of the main quest. The very things you SHOULD be doing to help your team win. Everything you said has no logical nor factual basis. You are defending your right to afk in the warzone and still get credit. There is no grey area here. Either you are supporting the afkers ability to get as much credit as the person who is scoring and capping, or you are not. The very idea that a merit based system is easier to exploit or "Trade" than a win based one is also very naive. It is easier and faster to sit and do nothing to let the other side win than it is to get medals while accomplishing objectives to get the same credit. To attempt to argue otherwise is a fools errand. I constantly top the boards AND am the #1 objective oriented person on my team. The two contrary to popular belief are not diametrically opposed. They are parallel in most cases. Will there always be people who are off farming damage, heals, medals? Sure but they won't be completing their quests unless they are doing it within the vicinity of an objective and actually participating in the objectives themselves. Edited February 12, 2012 by Aethyrprime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noollig Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Make dailies/weeklies based on individual performance rather than team wins. I would be willing to stay past my 5 minute rule if it was done this way. So you're one of the "symptoms" who only play for easy wins, and leave when it looks like you might have to put more effort in to win. I'd rather see you get a 5 minute debuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 You really are naive if you think your system wouldn't be exploited. He isn't naive, he does not understand what it will lead to. He did not think it through at all. Now we know why game mechanics are not implemented by school kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellapain Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Omg, you can't be serious? /facepalm First we got the guy above who's saying that team A will let team B trade off wins/whatever, . You stated to base completing dailies not off of wins but the following: (your words exactly) "Complete x objectives in a warzone, carry ball across goal line or capture x objectives. And Complete one of the following: Deal x damage to other players in warzones. or Heal x amount to other players in warzones. or Stop x amount of damage from team mates with protection." Those things YOU stated can easily be traded. Edited February 10, 2012 by Notannos rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 First we got the guy above who's saying that team A will let team B trade off wins/whatever, and now yoursaying that competition between team mates for accomplishing a goal is bad? LMFAO.. you must be kidding.. No, I'm not kidding. Here are a few examples. In Civil War, when two or more people go left initially to get the initial capture, often some will peel off and head off anyone coming to interrupt the capture. This usually prevents people from stopping the initial capture of the turret. Why would they do that if they don't get any "objective completion" credit for it? Under your idea, it seems like they would just race to the objective and all try to capture it, enabling one person with an AOE to disrupt them all. In Huttball, if you're coming down the enemy ramp and are 20 steps from the end zone, under enemy fire, and there's a teammate closer to the zone, why would you pass it to them? They'd get the points for scoring. Under your system, the encouraged behavior would be to keep running and risk getting killed. Those are just a couple examples off the top of my head as to why your idea would not be good. You could code solutions to some of them but the simplest thing, I think, is to encourage winning rather than objective camping as the desired result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notannos Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hey everyone, We recently had to removed several posts from this thread due to posts that did not contribute constructive discussion. A reminder that regardless of the topic, it is part of our Rules of Conduct that: Never insult another member of the community.Respect other community members, whether they agree with you or not.Flag, don't fight. Use the "flag" feature to report posts to our Community Team if you see someone breaking the rules – don't respond to them!Make constructive, on-topic posts that add to the discussion. Thank you for understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellapain Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I'm laughing so hard right now I may need a doctor! Those things will never be "traded" you know why? It's random on who gets pulled in to a PVP Matchup. There's no way to control opposing factions in a short term encounter unlike Ilum where it can be controlled. Seriously, mind boggling how low the average persons IQ is in here. 1+1=/=4 LOL....OMG.... This already happens in Ilum. You see there is this thing called a chat window in WZs where players can type to each other. Guilds are also know to join as groups and use things like ventrilo etc.. Under your system there is nothing to stop players that choose to from finding a nice spot somewhere on the map to trade off these things. Edited February 10, 2012 by Hellapain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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