Rhesus Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Whether it's PvE or PvP having a full-ranged composition is optimal while having a full-melee composition is the worst possible situation. There are numerous advantages to being ranged and no disadvantages, while at the same time there are no advantages to being melee and there are numerous disadvantages. In an MMO nothing should be strictly superior to something else, but the fact of the matter is that ranged in its nature is strictly superior to melee. Every single (at least important) PvE fight in this game is easier with all ranged DPS and some fights (HM KP droid puzzle fight) are impossible to do without substantial ranged firepower. In PvP it doesn't matter how good you are, you will lose DPS to kiting and positioning (getting "you must be facing target errors" which I bet ranged don't even know exist because they don't have to worry about positioning at all). Please BW give melee something that makes them worth bringing along. Give them better resolve characteristics for PvP, faster passive run speed, SOMETHING that makes a substantial tradeoff between ranged and melee rather than simply ranged > melee in every scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norke Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm a Sith Juggernaut and I support this message! Even the extra utility I get in PvP doesn't stop me from feeling sub par to range players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noirmorris Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I totally agree with OP. Actually bringing melee on raid is something like a penalty for healer and the whole raid too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeral_storm Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 New to MMOs? Hehe no harm intended, just that in every mmo its been the same, ranged have always had an advantage over melee, mostly noticable in PvE. Seriously, how many of us have not seen a lfg being spammed that contains "Ranged prefered"? Tbh, im always a bit suprised when I encounter a player who is melee if his main focus is PvE since its pretty much common knowledge they get the shaft in raids. In PvP they tend to also be in a slight disadvantage but not as much as PvE, the pure chaotic nature of pvp tend to allow them a bit more breating space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDProletariat Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 In PVE I agree. Melee DPS struggle against the operation bosses. But in PVP, don't complain. They have more than enough tools to make themselves able to DPS the target they want to DPS effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noirmorris Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 @Zera_Storm: Yes, but how can you make a certain type of class only for pvp? I mean, how can you do it on a game that actually doesn't have a serious pvp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aivedoir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Signed too. As long as they don't go overboard like in Rift and turn it completely around. Ranged had to use silly builds like melee-Ranger or Sabdancer to be competent in raids against melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeral_storm Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hey, I wish devs could be more creative with boss mechanics, not sure why they dont implement a wider variety of mechanics. Instead they seem to keep using the "tried and tested" mechanics that most mmo use, which always gives melee the shaft. On the bright side! I have encountered a bonus quest side boss that totally favours melee on Ilum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhesus Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 New to MMOs? Hehe no harm intended, just that in every mmo its been the same, ranged have always had an advantage over melee, mostly noticable in PvE. Hence, "it's time." SWTOR has an enormous draw to melee through the Jedi Knight archetype, meaning it doesn't make sense to let their bread-and-butter Jedi heroes fall victim to the melee-is-worse-than-ranged syndrome that afflicts nearly all MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PibbyPib Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 New to MMOs? Hehe no harm intended, just that in every mmo its been the same, ranged have always had an advantage over melee, mostly noticable in PvE. lol, so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeral_storm Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Good sentiment but unfortunaly (god I will get flamed for this), this game isnt about breaking new ground or introducing new ideas. It fully sticks to "safe" methods and is staying with the old tried and tested. That said, I fully agree with you, I encourage any MMO to think outside of the box, these days that rarely happens though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadNewzzz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 In PVE I agree. Melee DPS struggle against the operation bosses. But in PVP, don't complain. They have more than enough tools to make themselves able to DPS the target they want to DPS effectively. Yes i agree but one problem with swtor PVP is huttball, i get that 8/10 games and there range is much stronger. What is Star Wars? It is lightsabers So why did BW make so every boss do AoE dmg around himself that can only hurt melee? Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what class would get hurt by that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallerup Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Whether it's PvE or PvP having a full-ranged composition is optimal while having a full-melee composition is the worst possible situation. There are numerous advantages to being ranged and no disadvantages I'll stop you right there and say you are wrong. Melee does not have a LOS issue, ranged do. Heavy fabricator in Karagga's palace for example. I have to move several meters either to the side or forward to fire if he is on the right, because the platform infront of me blocks my LOS. While it does sound like a whine ("why is it hard to move several meters to fire), I'll answer, because I'm a clicker (on the machine), I need to stand by the machine the whole time. moving on: while at the same time there are no advantages to being melee the advantage is explained above and there are numerous disadvantages. In an MMO nothing should be strictly superior to something else, but the fact of the matter is that ranged in its nature is strictly superior to melee. this I can agree with, to some extent. the Exception being the LOS issue. In PvP it doesn't matter how good you are, you will lose DPS to kiting and positioning (getting "you must be facing target errors" which I bet ranged don't even know exist because they don't have to worry about positioning at all). I play melee in PvP and I have no issue with this, except for the fact that sages eat me alive before I can get to them. That's more of a nerf problem than any other Please BW give melee something that makes them worth bringing along. Give them better resolve characteristics for PvP, faster passive run speed, SOMETHING that makes a substantial tradeoff between ranged and melee rather than simply ranged > melee in every scenario. this would be unfair in PvP as the target you are chasing that is almost dead will run faster than you. Not every ranged class is a run and gun. most abilities requires you to stand still. Who uses "autofire" (attack button) in PvP anyways? That is one of the few sniper abilities that can be cast while moving, the others are: flash bang and frag grenade. Edited February 10, 2012 by Fallerup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDProletariat Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yes i agree but one problem with swtor PVP is huttball, i get that 8/10 games and there range is much stronger. What is Star Wars? It is lightsabers So why did BW make so every boss do AoE dmg around himself that can only hurt melee? Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what class would get hurt by that... So your argument stems from your interpretation of the Star Wars universe as revolving around lightsabers? I hardly see that as a very cogent point seeing as there were far more blasters in Star Wars than lightsabers by many magnitudes. The problem is that any advantage you attempt to give them to help them in PVE will imbalance them in PVP as they are already fine in PVP, and still very capable in PVE. The only rational conclusion we can draw is that the melee/ranged balance is at the moment, well, balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invitcted Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hehe no harm intended, just that in every mmo its been the same, ranged have always had an advantage over melee, mostly noticable in PvE. Actually no, it only started being more of a problem in pve then pvp when Blizz decided to break the game and 'balance' the game around arena because it was going to be their next big esport. Before that casters often had to stand and hard cast to pull off big numbers so any fight that required movement ruined their dps without effecting melee that much. As balance evolved (which BW followed somewhat) they shifted away from hard casting and channeling and focused more damage into instant casts and dots. This helped balance in pvp but hurt melee in pve because high movement fights had drastically less of an impact then they had in the past. The above combined with the BW raid designer's favorite mechanic being 'boss centered aoe' has drastically shifted raiding against melee dps at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladedakoda Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 New to MMOs? Hehe no harm intended, just that in every mmo its been the same, ranged have always had an advantage over melee, mostly noticable in PvE. Seriously, how many of us have not seen a lfg being spammed that contains "Ranged prefered"? Tbh, im always a bit suprised when I encounter a player who is melee if his main focus is PvE since its pretty much common knowledge they get the shaft in raids. In PvP they tend to also be in a slight disadvantage but not as much as PvE, the pure chaotic nature of pvp tend to allow them a bit more breating space. This, i had a dk and a lock in wow and there were maybe two fights each tier that were tank and spank. (Gear check). Three if you were lucky, but melee has always had a ****** time raiding. It is why my very first toon i rolled on TOR was a merc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValaxDarkseer Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Wont happen. Too many bads who play ranged will whine and cry and try to argue playing a ranged class is harder (happens everytime which is lulz). The ironic thing is they made this game heavily favor ranged DPS when the most iconic classes are the ones which are melee and use lightsabers. Such fail but considering how poorly made SWTOR is as a whole this is no surprise. Par for the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dachosen Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I'll stop you right there and say you are wrong. Melee does not have a LOS issue, ranged do. Heavy fabricator in Karagga's palace for example. I have to move several meters either to the side or forward to fire if he is on the right, because the platform infront of me blocks my LOS. While it does sound like a whine ("why is it hard to move several meters to fire), I'll answer, because I'm a clicker (on the machine), I need to stand by the machine the whole time. The whole point of this topic is melee can only dps from melee range and range dps can dps from 0-40 w/o any reduced dmg, when they need to get closer to bosses. So it means u can replace melee dps with range dps at all encounters, problem solved . Oh and melee cant do ur job at that encounter so why take any melee at all Edited February 10, 2012 by Dachosen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areto Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) oops, ignore. Edited February 10, 2012 by areto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areto Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It's always been a bit hard to balance ranged/melee in MMOs, for one thing in real life ranged totally trumps melee and we've known that conclusively since at least the fall of the roman empire. You'd think it would be as simple as giving melee higher burst so they can do the damage while they're on the target, or the chance to apply DoTs, or a lot of stuns and slows to keep the target still. But then PvP becomes an issue (like vanilla rogues). It's just a tough area apparently because no-one seems to be able to fix it. his would be unfair in PvP as the target you are chasing that is almost dead will run faster than you. Not every ranged class is a run and gun. most abilities requires you to stand still. Who uses "autofire" (attack button) in PvP anyways? That is one of the few sniper abilities that can be cast while moving, the others are: flash bang and frag grenade. and overload shot which is very useful in that exact situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunabaguna Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) The advantage is already there. Melee have instant damage. Most ranged damage is cast timer or at least stationary damage. During fights that require moving around, nearly every ranged class (apart from perhaps tracer missile spammer mercs) will lose craploads of dps when they have to move. Melee dont have this issue. Also, in pve, most melee have some sort of talent to reduce aoe damage taken. I play a jugg and an assassin, I have no problems with melee dps. Edit: Even tracer missile spammers lose dps on movement heavy fights. Edited February 10, 2012 by lunabaguna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Gunner-- Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 yes buff melee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadNewzzz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 So your argument stems from your interpretation of the Star Wars universe as revolving around lightsabers? I hardly see that as a very cogent point seeing as there were far more blasters in Star Wars than lightsabers by many magnitudes. The problem is that any advantage you attempt to give them to help them in PVE will imbalance them in PVP as they are already fine in PVP, and still very capable in PVE. The only rational conclusion we can draw is that the melee/ranged balance is at the moment, well, balanced. How would changing the way PVE bosses do their AoE dmg unbalance things in PVP? And how would giving us a filter so we don't have to play huttball all the time be bad for anyone? Melee do less dmg because they need to run away from aoe all the time and healers get more job since they have to heal both tank and melee. The only rational conclusion we can draw is that the melee/ranged is unbalance at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunabaguna Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 How would changing the way PVE bosses do their AoE dmg unbalance things in PVP? And how would giving us a filter so we don't have to play huttball all the time be bad for anyone? Melee do less dmg because they need to run away from aoe all the time and healers get more job since they have to heal both tank and melee. The only rational conclusion we can draw is that the melee/ranged is unbalance at the moment. Most melee have ranged abilities they can use while getting out of aoe, also, most of the aoe in the game is placed, it isnt pbaoe, so tanks should be pulling bosses out of it or rotating them to allow dps not to stand in it. AoE is not the massive problem you are making it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozedk Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The advantage is already there. Melee have instant damage. Most ranged damage is cast timer or at least stationary damage. During fights that require moving around, nearly every ranged class (apart from perhaps tracer missile spammer mercs) will lose craploads of dps when they have to move. Melee dont have this issue. Also, in pve, most melee have some sort of talent to reduce aoe damage taken. I play a jugg and an assassin, I have no problems with melee dps. Edit: Even tracer missile spammers lose dps on movement heavy fights. I do not agree with you there, there are alot of instant dps for range, but the problem in not just that, it is as other has sayed why take a melee dps on a raid when a range can do it just as well and take less dmg. The problem as I see it in these games is that the aoe dps that most bosses uses is hitting the melee dps and the healers get to work, and thats fine but when you can take out the melee dps and take one extra ranged dps for a healer cuz its easy to heal then you get the imbalance, and do have all the dps you need. It is as I see it and I have tryed it, my melee dps has a hard time getting pug but my ranged dps no problem, and I see it beeing this problem that the range has a supiriority, healing / dps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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