Same gender relationships clarifications?

[mrcaptainpants]

even with the hormone driven voicing up I'm still seeing more show up, looks at least to be at least one or two a page the last few pages ^_^

 

Yes, there seems to be another sudden wave of support for SGRA information. I can't wait for Friday's Q&A Answer thread. They're gonna have to ignore us EXTRA hard.

 

Okay, that was naughty of me. Bad me! BAD!!!

 

Keep it up, everyone! Gogogogogogogogogogo!!!!!!!!

[jediknightcub]

Devs seem to be avoiding this topic like the plague in the Q&A sessions. They'd much rather talk about the implemetation of chat bubbles. (Seriously.)

 

And don't forget "Hue to chest"! Making sure the color of my pants matches the color of my chest armor. Fashion concerns over broken stories and dialogue options. Not to be crass, but that's so...well...[pejorative frequently uttered by XBOX Live gamers].

Edited February 21, 2012 by jediknightcub

[Kaenna]

Suaine and Kioma, I really liked your brainstorming ideas on the 'Herosexual' side of things. I can see and go along with that line thinking.

 

I also hope we get some kind answer on this weeks Q&A. Given that we've had a rise on questions dealing with our issue.

 

About getting outside help with the SGR issue. I don't feel we've reached that point yet. Using the 'snail-mail' letter with the emails, feedback and such can still work for us.

 

I think of it like this, happy Dev's are good and unhappy Dev's are bad. I would much rather they work with us on this because they want too. Not because they feel any outside pressure to do so. I do want this content ASAP like just about everyone else. But, I want it done right and done well.

 

Just my two cents.

[Leoroc]

I just saw your post! Woot! Thank you!

 

And there were two more posts about SGRA's after yours on the same page. I can't thank everyone enough for all the awesome support.

 

It has made my day.

 

EDIT: Um, or on the very next page after yours! I thought they were on the same page. Maybe something got edited. Whatevs. There are still two more posts following yours, that's the important thing. Well, that, and my need for an eye examination....

 

I've posted in each Q&A thread on this topic.

[mrcaptainpants]

I've posted in each Q&A thread on this topic.

 

Me, too! Hopefully we can keep this momentum going and keep some pressure on the powers-that-be.

[Nozybidaj]

Yes, there seems to be another sudden wave of support for SGRA information. I can't wait for Friday's Q&A Answer thread. They're gonna have to ignore us EXTRA hard.

 

The Q&A thread is literally bursting with folks asking about the SGRA's and the when's and how's. It'll be interesting to see what happens after they ignore it again this week.

[MusedMoose]

I've posted in each Q&A thread on this topic.

Me, too! Hopefully we can keep this momentum going and keep some pressure on the powers-that-be.

Me three!

 

Granted, it is entirely possible that our questions still won't get answered. The devs are going to choose questions they can actually answer, of course; I'd like to think that they have a good reason for not addressing the SGR issue yet and I hope I'm right. But hopefully the sheer number of requests for information about this will make them realize how important it is to a lot of their customers. Even an answer like "We don't have anything new for you, but we're still working on this and it's still going to happen" would be good.

 

Also: good to see some new faces and new voices of support in here. Yay!

Edited February 21, 2012 by MusedMoose

[Kioma]

What's the percentage at now?

[jediknightcub]

Having an entirely hero-sexual crew does hamper realism a little, that's true, but it still seems the best way to maximise options.

 

I'm torn on the issue of hero-sexual vs. intractable sexual orientation.

 

I see hero-sexual as the most efficient and most easily implemented: change gender-specific language and voila, instant SGRAs! Plus players have already become attached to certain companions and it would only seem fair to open those characters up to be hero-sexual. I would just ask that in addition to that we have more companion customizations on the guy side that incorporate different body types for those of us not inclined toward the "tall, thin, neat" variety of gay.

 

If the situation was not as it is where we're essentially treading water waiting for a feature everyone else has and if I were able to make my pre-launch development wishlist for companions, it would be for characters with defined sexual orientations.

 

With specifically homosexual characters, the writing could be more specific, but also those who are afraid they might spontaneously go gay and subsequently forget to press the ESC key to back out of such a conversation would be able to avoid the content altogether by ignoring that companion.

 

I can see issues with that of course, one being that it might instantly 'out' a character because they're playing with "that" companion. But I think it might better address two concerns of the opposing camps: having to see the content and having the content respectfully written.

 

I think it would also open the possibility of exploring LGBT issues with those specifically gay companions in, say, a humanitarian crisis involving a homophobic planetary government (maybe the companion's home planet?). No one else would have to do or see that content unless they were playing with that specific companion, and it would be an interesting dramatic opportunity for LGBT players while giving us a chance to be heroic specifically in an LGBT context--two things that would probably go a long way toward showing us that this content was not just an afterthought.

 

One idea that I presented in the pre-launch forums which wasn't popular but that I think fits in with the dramatic possibilities of the game I've experienced would be to have companion characters who are homophobic. (Trolling with that character could be prevented by making those options only available if the player's character was already involved in a gay relationship.) We already have companions who savor cruelty and punishing the weak, why not include this as a possibility. You might lose affection with them for being gay, but there would also be the option to talk to them about their homophobia and try to convince them otherwise. If you wanted to avoid that companion altogether, you could.

 

I know some people didn't want to see this in the game because the game should be an escape from reality, but I thought that if story lines already revolve around rather serious issues of slavery, genocide, refugees, and the rights of semi-sentient species then this issue would merely add to the serious, challenging content in the game.

[Cythereal]

Here's an idea: an exclusively homosexual Cathar companion. From what I've learned via the Codex and Aric Jorgan, the Cathar are big on families and mating for life after they were almost eradicated 300 years ago. A homosexual Cathar could be on very bad terms with his or her species for not "doing their duty to restore the species."

[Kioma]

A homosexual Cathar could be on very bad terms with his or her species for not "doing their duty to restore the species."

 

Well, technically, as none of the playable species includes Cathar that would apply to any romanceable Cathar companions, irrespective of sexuality.

[Raiellyn]

Well, technically, as none of the playable species includes Cathar that would apply to any romanceable Cathar companions, irrespective of sexuality.

 

... *Yet*.

 

I'm still holding out hope for them to be a part of the future plans for Legacy races after the patch in March.

[Cythereal]

Well, technically, as none of the playable species includes Cathar that would apply to any romanceable Cathar companions, irrespective of sexuality.

 

Eh, I don't know if Cathar can interbeed with other races (my female Trooper hasn't gotten to the inevitable talk/letter about kids yet - the companion romance for female Troopers, Aric Jorgan, is a Cathar), so it may or may not apply.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Cythereal

[Kioma]

... *Yet*.

 

I'm still holding out hope for them to be a part of the future plans for Legacy races after the patch in March.

 

True, that'd be pretty awesome. They're definitely one of the species I'm interested in seeing - not so much because of Aric, but because of the huge Jedi in the Jedi Temple on Tython. I took one look at him and went O.O

[Raiellyn]

True, that'd be pretty awesome. They're definitely one of the species I'm interested in seeing - not so much because of Aric, but because of the huge Jedi in the Jedi Temple on Tython. I took one look at him and went O.O

 

My inspiration was the one refugee thief on Ord Mantell.

 

I mean, I may screw her over every time on the medicine... but I'll be darned if she doesn't make it hard to say no. I'd honestly re-roll my smuggler as a Cathar in a heartbeat so as to break up the monotony of my all-human cast.

 

But anywho, to avoid getting too off-topic, I'd like to say that the previously brought-up idea of a persecuted homosexual companion or even a homophobic companion (for some reason, I'm picturing something along the lines of a gruffer Tanno Vik, even though he is not the most judgmental character. ) seems intriguing, though with the possibility of gay relationships setting off the protestors, integrating entire storylines of such content like the suggested planetary governments and the like may be a *bit* ambitious.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Raiellyn

[Uluain]

Here's an idea: an exclusively homosexual Cathar companion. From what I've learned via the Codex and Aric Jorgan, the Cathar are big on families and mating for life after they were almost eradicated 300 years ago. A homosexual Cathar could be on very bad terms with his or her species for not "doing their duty to restore the species."

Okay, yeah - a Cathar guy would be hawt. :3

 

And a gal, of course, for the ladies.

 

What's the percentage at now?

Latest tally - 74 out of 813 - has it at between 9 and 10%, roughly double of last week's showing.

[Cythereal]

But anywho, to avoid getting too off-topic, I'd like to say that the previously brought-up idea of a persecuted homosexual companion or even a homophobic companion (for some reason, I'm picturing something along the lines of a gruffer Tanno Vik, even though he is not the most judgmental character. ) seems intriguing, though with the possibility of gay relationships setting off the protestors, integrating entire storylines of such content like the suggested planetary governments and the like may be a *bit* ambitious.

 

Another candidate would be a homosexual Sith Pureblood, given how important bloodline and family are to the Sith. I don't think making an entire story about it would be likely or even a good move, but making it an element of a character's troubled relationship with their race/family could work.

[MusedMoose]

I'm torn on the issue of hero-sexual vs. intractable sexual orientation.

 

I see hero-sexual as the most efficient and most easily implemented: change gender-specific language and voila, instant SGRAs! Plus players have already become attached to certain companions and it would only seem fair to open those characters up to be hero-sexual. I would just ask that in addition to that we have more companion customizations on the guy side that incorporate different body types for those of us not inclined toward the "tall, thin, neat" variety of gay.

Y'know, I have to agree, despite not having a male body type preference. I don't have all the companions on any of my characters, but so far, it seems like the male companions all have body type 2 and the females all have body type 1 or 2 (I'm pretty sure there's at least one exception for each gender but I don't have those companions yet). This boggles my mind. I know those are the most common body types - hell, my female JK is body type 3 and I've yet to see another female character on my server who is - but I hope it won't stay that way. Everybody's got different tastes, and BioWare could really make some strides forward in the companion romance thing by remembering that people with less than perfect figures need love too.

 

At least they didn't limit companion romance by the player character's body type. Man, what a poodoo-storm that would have been.

 

[snipped for length]

I know some people didn't want to see this in the game because the game should be an escape from reality, but I thought that if story lines already revolve around rather serious issues of slavery, genocide, refugees, and the rights of semi-sentient species then this issue would merely add to the serious, challenging content in the game.

You bring up a lot of good points. However, I'm not sure if actual homophobia from in-game characters would be a good idea, for a few reasons, both in-game and not.

 

In-game, I don't know if homophobia would be a big thing across the galaxy. This is a place where inter-species dating and marriage doesn't even get a second look - hell, one of the main human characters is married to an alien. (I won't say who because of possible spoilers.) Because of that, I think it's safe to say that being with someone of the same gender wouldn't be seen as a big deal.

 

On an out-of-game note, I see homophobic content as creating a big problem. Some people think that, if a character in some form of entertainment espouses a certain view, whoever created that entertainment must share that view. So if BioWare, a company known for including homosexual content, suddenly has a character who thinks it's disgusting that your smuggler and Corso are clearly more than friends? Suddenly people are up in arms, screaming that BW has changed its view on homosexuality and now condemns it... despite that BW's view on such things is what allowed for the character to have the chance to witness the relationship in the first place.

 

I hope that made sense. But I've seen authors accused of sexism because of chivalrous male characters, I've seen people who make movies accused of racism because of period-appropriate language in historical films, and so on. I really, really don't want to see BioWare have to deal with that.

 

Another candidate would be a homosexual Sith Pureblood, given how important bloodline and family are to the Sith. I don't think making an entire story about it would be likely or even a good move, but making it an element of a character's troubled relationship with their race/family could work.

I hadn't thought of that, and I think that's probably the only way it could be done without it causing the issues I talked about above. A character talking about the issues he or she has had would be interesting, but a character openly condemning homosexual relationships would be problematic. Oi.

 

True, that'd be pretty awesome. They're definitely one of the species I'm interested in seeing - not so much because of Aric, but because of the huge Jedi in the Jedi Temple on Tython. I took one look at him and went O.O

Hell yes. I'm really hoping we get Cathar and/or Nautolan as new race choices with the Legacy system, because they're both just awesome-looking. As a Leo, I want to play a dual-wielding Jedi LION with an enormous mane so frickin' bad.

Edited February 21, 2012 by MusedMoose

[Kioma]

I don't know why but to me including a homosexual character who's persecuted for being homosexual rings very subtle alarm bells. Maybe it's just that I'd like to think that the Star Wars universe might be a great deal more progressive than ours (in some areas; others would logically be more backward). Maybe it's the implication of what a homophobic player might do to such a companion.

 

Maybe it's purely because integrating that into a story's background would actually make sexuality in general too much of a focal point. Romances are an option; exploring potential sexuality is likewise an option. Having a persecuted homosexual not only forces players to focus attention on the fact that X Companion is gay, but also brings the concept of sexuality hate crime politics into the game and to me that sounds like it would be an absolute minefield of trouble.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an interesting story idea, I just get the feeling that TOR might not be the ideal place for it.

[Nozybidaj]

If the situation was not as it is where we're essentially treading water waiting for a feature everyone else has and if I were able to make my pre-launch development wishlist for companions, it would be for characters with defined sexual orientations.

 

I don't think they have the resources for something like that. If all companions were to have specifically defined sexualities and still be able to cover all the options they would have to add at least 16 brand new companions on top of the already existing companions. That is 16 new character designs, 16 new companion stories that need written, 16 new companion quest lines that need implemented, 16 new voice actors to cast and record, etc., etc. Not to mention that any future content additions beyond that involving companions increases that work load by 16 again over the already existing number. That simply isn't going to happen.

 

While I could possibly be persuaded that it might be more "realistic", the logistics simply make it an impossibility. If they don't make the existing companions hero-sexual I would wager at best each faction will get 2 new generic companions, both hero-sexual, with even less story, less VO work, and no tie in to the class story so that all classes can obtain them, and I'd bet you won't see it until at least the first full expansion is out. You might not even be able to recruit said companions till post-level 50.

 

At this point, the only acceptable solution I see is to make the current companions hero-sexual. It is far less work, can be done is a greatly reduced timeline, and inherently brings same gender options with the quality of the existing companions (because they are the existing companions).

 

There is really nothing less I personally would be willing to accept.

[Cythereal]

I don't know why but to me including a homosexual character who's persecuted for being homosexual rings very subtle alarm bells. Maybe it's just that I'd like to think that the Star Wars universe might be a great deal more progressive than ours (in some areas; others would logically be more backward). Maybe it's the implication of what a homophobic player might do to such a companion.

 

Maybe it's purely because integrating that into a story's background would actually make sexuality in general too much of a focal point. Romances are an option; exploring potential sexuality is likewise an option. Having a persecuted homosexual not only forces players to focus attention on the fact that X Companion is gay, but also brings the concept of sexuality hate crime politics into the game and to me that sounds like it would be an absolute minefield of trouble.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an interesting story idea, I just get the feeling that TOR might not be the ideal place for it.

 

Oh, I agree, but some of the situations and stories set up in TOR are natural places for such storylines to crop up - the Cathar trying to recover from near-extinction and Sith placing such weight on lineage and continuing bloodlines to name two. Gender politics arise on the Imperial side already with some Imperial NPCs being openly sexist (in one memorable case, you can punch/force choke/force lightning the offender), and while I agree that keeping it low-key is probably for the best, it's a noticeable missed opportunity even so.

[Kioma]

Oh, I agree, but some of the situations and stories set up in TOR are natural places for such storylines to crop up - the Cathar trying to recover from near-extinction and Sith placing such weight on lineage and continuing bloodlines to name two. Gender politics arise on the Imperial side already with some Imperial NPCs being openly sexist (in one memorable case, you can punch/force choke/force lightning the offender), and while I agree that keeping it low-key is probably for the best, it's a noticeable missed opportunity even so.

 

I think the main difference there is that you can punish the sexist individual. The sexism is also aimed at your character, and you can take a direct step in reacting to that. But a whole culture condemning your companion would create an environment of subtle hate that you can't respond to.

 

I dunno. Maybe I'm being overly cautious but something about putting that into an MMO that's got people screaming for a feature that'll enable them to sanitise their worlds of Any Possible Gay just seems like a needlessly dangerous move.

[Helig]

I don't know why but to me including a homosexual character who's persecuted for being homosexual rings very subtle alarm bells. Maybe it's just that I'd like to think that the Star Wars universe might be a great deal more progressive than ours (in some areas; others would logically be more backward). Maybe it's the implication of what a homophobic player might do to such a companion.

 

Maybe it's purely because integrating that into a story's background would actually make sexuality in general too much of a focal point. Romances are an option; exploring potential sexuality is likewise an option. Having a persecuted homosexual not only forces players to focus attention on the fact that X Companion is gay, but also brings the concept of sexuality hate crime politics into the game and to me that sounds like it would be an absolute minefield of trouble.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an interesting story idea, I just get the feeling that TOR might not be the ideal place for it.

 

"Forward" and "backward" can be quite relative. Our modern society, no matter how flawed it may be, is definitely a step up from the proverbial Sodom and Gomorrah. Too much "good" can be bad. Even if it's liberty\tolerance. Everything must be in balance. The trick is to strike that balance. And balance is understanding that all people are born different, that some things, like homosexuality, is in their genes (behavioural ethics aside). But the other "side" must be respected, as well.

 

 

As for accenting a character's sexuality, I definitely agree. It's entirely unnecessary. Nothing beside tension would come out of it. While I do support the idea of main character "sexuality switch" in Preferences, while making all companions Bi, I honestly doubt that BW will go for it. Likely, they'll just slap a couple of new companions for each class, make some of them susceptible to advances from both genders. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Kioma]

But the other "side" must be respected, as well.

 

This is getting into real life politics a little too much, so I'll answer it privately.

 

Likely, they'll just slap a couple of new companions for each class, make some of them susceptible to advances from both genders. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

We will, but slapping in new companions would actually be a hell of a lot more work than tweaking existing ones. But the fact is that until we hear from Bioware we just won't know.

[Helig]

We will, but slapping in new companions would actually be a hell of a lot more work than tweaking existing ones. But the fact is that until we hear from Bioware we just won't know.

 

Bioware did say that they're planning for more companions. Pretty sure they're going for the two-birds-with-one-stone solution.