Raiellyn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) 1.) Please explain how something that impartial is not fair. 2.) I am sorry, but you are flat out wrong - there ARE LGBT gamers complaining about the heterosexual romances in game. One poster even called it wrong and backwards. It sounds like you are saying that homosexual content needs to be blatantly visible in all game content wether the user wants it or not... or am I reading this wrong? Please clarify. Please, show me an example of an LGBT gamer complaining about the fact that there are hetero-romances in the game, WITHOUT making mention of SGRA's. The problem is that only one is in while the other is not. Any mention of a toggle originates from the heterosexual side of the debate. Not a single person has made the claim that only OGRA's should have to be toggled on, to my awareness. It is a defensive reaction, saying "if you want to censor me, I should be able to censor you". And yes, essentially. I do not wish a person to be forced into playing content they do not wish to experience, but treating the SGRA's as a completely different aspect of the game that *needs* to have an option to fully-disable it? That is, put simply, discrimination. The game is one big toggle; you can already choose what you do and do not see. Finally, a toggle is NOT impartial. Even if it targets both demographics, it CAME from the wishes of only ONE side. How is that not partial? Edited February 10, 2012 by Raiellyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebram Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yes personally I think if people really need a toggle to tell them not to click [Flirt] then they have other problems to deal with.. just because the option is there doesnt mean you have to click it just like you dont have to click "Pay me" option or "Ill do this for free" or "No thanks" its just another choice it shouldnt be treated any differently.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanSnowWolf Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I have received a private message from another forum user. *Scar's Voice* Oh, GOODIE. Yeah. This discussion has officially reached My Way Or The Highway. Dev silence on implementation is almost looking justified. When this goes live the backlash is going to be Biblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiellyn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I have received a private message from another forum user. *Scar's Voice* Oh, GOODIE. Yeah. This discussion has officially reached My Way Or The Highway. Dev silence on implementation is almost looking justified. When this goes live the backlash is going to be Biblical. Oh yes, because a few aggressive posters with strong opinions warrant ignoring an entire portion of the fanbase. /sarcasm Anything you said has lost credibility in my eyes, not that you care, I'm sure. This entire GAME has had a biblical backlash. Way to act like it is a unique outcome of this issue. Stay classy. Edited February 10, 2012 by Sireene reply to deleted post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suaine Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It sounds like you are saying that homosexual content needs to be blatantly visible in all game content wether the user wants it or not... or am I reading this wrong? Please clarify. Only exactly as visible as straight content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuffystuffs Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I don't see any point arguing with the 'toggle' folks anymore. If they want to cancel their subscription due to SG [flirt] prompts that they don't have to select, then let them. I would honestly be surprised if BW implemented a toggle like that...that's not going to look very good for them if they do. Edited February 10, 2012 by stuffystuffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebram Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The idea of two toggles means there has to be a total of 4 different sets of dialog... both off.. both on.. ssr on.. and osr on.. where without toggles there only needs to be one set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiellyn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't see any point arguing with the 'toggle' folks anymore. If they want to cancel their subscription due to SG [flirt] prompts that they don't have to select, then let them. I would honestly be surprised if BW implemented a toggle like that...that's not going to look very good for them if they do. Agreed. Both sides have said their piece, and we should probably leave it at that. Not much more to say without rehashing points, and in the end, Bioware probably already has it all planned out on how to do it. The toggle would be a PR nightmare, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaynee Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Well, as I said, if the toggle idea isn't implemented my choice becomes live with it or cancel. At this point I'm thinking I would likely cancel. However, I feel that I've made my point to Bioware (assuming they read these threads). I think I have presented the best way to deal with the issue to not alienate anyone. What they do is what they do. How I react is up to me. Good luck all. And yeah, I like your close, Raiellyn. Stay classy. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyer Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) In a suggestion I posted some time ago, long lost and ignored, I proposed something I thought would work more perfectly than any toggle option in that it'd be realistic, and also progressively drive results. I'd like to see the romance system use the player's feedback to drive the progression. It's simple, really--you talk to a person, you choose to be flirtatious if the option appears, and that "input" indicates to the game that your player is perhaps more inclined to be flirtatious with a guy or a gal or both. This would trigger tthe game to offer increased flirt options with the companion or gender(s) of NPC that you elect to flirt with. If you avoid flirting with a gender of NPC or with a companion 2 or 3 times, then that'd be a pretty good indication that, given a choice, you'd prefer not to flirt in that situation, and those options become less frequent. You might have a flirt option pop up when you meet a new companion, and if you avoid again, then back to not showing flirt. This might be resettable, just in case players manage to mess up and lock themselves out of flirt. The advantage of such a system: ~You don't get an awkward system that doesn't know whether to continue to have flirting or not. ~Your character can become increasingly or decreasingly flirtatious rather than all or nothing ~BW can continue to grow flirting options out logically as they expand the game ~If you want to play around with gender in romance, start doing so and it magically expands ~If you don't, then avoid options you don't want and they go away ~...profit! Edited February 10, 2012 by Journeyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuffystuffs Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Really, no point in arguing this. 1) SGRA will be included (well, they say this at least). 2) I can't recall a game that shipped with a 'romance toggle' (beyond, ya know...not selecting that option) including other games that had SGRA content (both from BW and other devs like Bethesda). It will look fishy if BW were to suddenly add in a romance toggle in response to adding in SGRA even if adding in a global romance toggle. If that content is inappropriate for you and your children, don't play the game/don't let them play the game. There are definitely games that contain themes I don't care for (so I don't buy them/play them). Edited February 10, 2012 by stuffystuffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaynee Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) With a two toggle system, how you set up your computer game is your choice. you do what you want, I do what I want. Your gameplay is enhanced because it fits your life, mine is not detracted from. We should both be happy with this. We are each given personal choice. Edited February 10, 2012 by Sireene reply to deleted post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebram Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) At this point we are going into so much detail that this whole discussion would have been a whole lot more helpful prior to release.. but at that time they removed every thread regarding the issue.. the whole toggle thing would require a complete redo of all conversations in numerous variations which putting into a game thats already released seems a bit much where as editing existing conversations does not require such a huge change Edited February 10, 2012 by Tenebram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cykun Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm gay and I wouldn't be the least bit offended by a toggle. It didn't bother at first but honestly I'm getting a bit sick of my Sith Warrior having a flirt option with what seems like every other female character he talks to and I'd kinda like to turn that off. So I get how people would feel if their male character had a flirt option with other male characters. I don't really see "bigotry" or "discrimination" in allowing people to turn off something they don't want. As stupid as it is, gayness still makes people uncomfortable and if being fair is the goal here you can't say that someone's discomfort with the option to make a character gay is any less than my annoyance with having heterosexuality shoved at me constantly. At least that's what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparklecat Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Again, with a two toggle system, how you set up your computer game is your choice. you do what you want, I do what I want. Your gameplay is enhanced because it fits your life, mine is not detracted from. We should both be happy with this. We are each given personal choice. So. I said why I have a problem with the two toggle system. Perhaps you could try explaining in more detail why same-sex flirts showing up for you would be a problem, or detract from your game? eta: this was edited by mods; I recognize why you just cut the entire paragraph, but the main point of my post was collateral damage: that we need to get where people are coming from, why they want what they do, to reach any compromise or mutual understanding. Hopefully there's nothing problematic about reexpressing that. Edited February 10, 2012 by sparklecat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyer Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 And in just a few short minutes, my page 8 post slips to obsolescence. I was proposing not a toggle, but rather a more natural approach where the player's choices act as a progressive, invisible toggle (with emergency reset). Nobody? Anybody? Thoughts? There's 9 pages of "yes toggle", "no toggle"--how about a compromise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiellyn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) And in just a few short minutes, my page 8 post slips to obsolescence. I was proposing not a toggle, but rather a more natural approach where the player's choices act as a progressive, invisible toggle (with emergency reset). Nobody? Anybody? Thoughts? There's 9 pages of "yes toggle", "no toggle"--how about a compromise? Must've missed my reply at the very top of this page (or somewhere. Moved since the mods chopped out a few posts... ), but I generally agree with the concept. Definitely more preferable to a toggle, in my eyes. (Off-topic side-note; All hail the Orange Pixel!) Edited February 10, 2012 by Raiellyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebram Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 And in just a few short minutes, my page 8 post slips to obsolescence. I was proposing not a toggle, but rather a more natural approach where the player's choices act as a progressive, invisible toggle (with emergency reset). Nobody? Anybody? Thoughts? There's 9 pages of "yes toggle", "no toggle"--how about a compromise? I really like your idea, quite a bit.. but it doesnt satisfy those that dont want the flirt option to be there at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaynee Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 +10 respect for Cykun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suaine Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 And in just a few short minutes, my page 8 post slips to obsolescence. I was proposing not a toggle, but rather a more natural approach where the player's choices act as a progressive, invisible toggle (with emergency reset). Nobody? Anybody? Thoughts? There's 9 pages of "yes toggle", "no toggle"--how about a compromise? I personally like it, makes it more fluid than a simple toggle option, something like the personality system they used in Dragon Age 2. It's possible, though I believe it might be quite a lot of extra work and it would not actually solve the problem of the people who do not want to be faced with the existence of even the option of SGR for their characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuffystuffs Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) And in just a few short minutes, my page 8 post slips to obsolescence. I was proposing not a toggle, but rather a more natural approach where the player's choices act as a progressive, invisible toggle (with emergency reset). Nobody? Anybody? Thoughts? There's 9 pages of "yes toggle", "no toggle"--how about a compromise? I think your idea has a few issues, though. 1) It would be a bit more complex from a coding perspective. 2) My female PC may choose not to pick the first 3 flirts with males (which leads to a decrease in male flirts available). This is fine if my PC is a lesbian...but what if she's heterosexual but just not interested in those guys? When the 'right guy' comes along, she may not be able to pursue it due to your mechanic. It seems like it's putting more work on the devs...plus they have more control over who you can or cannot flirt with since they decide how to code those rules. I prefer it to be left up to the player...you decide who you flirt with and when throughout the game. I mean, they don't decrease the amount of Dark Side options when you hit Light Side Tier 2. Edited February 10, 2012 by stuffystuffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenovan Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 And in just a few short minutes, my page 8 post slips to obsolescence. I was proposing not a toggle, but rather a more natural approach where the player's choices act as a progressive, invisible toggle (with emergency reset). Nobody? Anybody? Thoughts? There's 9 pages of "yes toggle", "no toggle"--how about a compromise? Hehe, don't worry, I think the regular readers of this thread comb over every post pretty thoroughly; they're just responding to other stuff. I love the idea of the game "learning" your preferences, but I suspect it might be difficult to implement. It also might not account for the fact that the player may pick and choose which NPCs to flirt with based on something other than gender. (Like race, appearance, general attitude, what-have-you.) So if (this is a purely theoretical example) my bi BH is presented with lots of flirts with skeevy male characters that I choose not to take, vs. a few flirts with attractive female characters that I use, what's the overall balance going to be? (And that's not even getting into the issue of the lack of flirt opportunities in general except for male versions of a few classes... ) tl;dr, It's a really interesting mechanic, but with flirting as it is in-game right now, not sure how well it would work. If they expanded everyone's ability to flirt, it could work nicely IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reaperkeepet Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 How about this, for us that don't want the options why not have a option in the preferences to turn it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparklecat Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I think your idea has a few issues, though. 1) It would be a bit more complex from a coding perspective. 2) My female PC may choose not to pick the first 3 flirts with males (which leads to a decrease in male flirts available). This is fine if my PC is a lesbian...but what if she's heterosexual but just not interested in those guys? When the 'right guy' comes along, she may not be able to pursue it due to your mechanic. It seems like it's putting more work on the devs...plus they have more control over who you can or cannot flirt with since they decide how to code those rules. I prefer it to be left up to the player...you decide who you flirt with and when throughout the game. Also you're going to need lines/voicing to replace the flirts one they're not appearing. I do think there's potential in some sort of reactive, handled per character system, but I'd be concerned about the thresholds for things appearing, and how a lack of knowledge would impact our roleplaying. If I want to make sure I have all options available later on, simply because I can't say in advance how my character would react to all situations, am I going to have to flirt early and often, even if I'm not interested? Will I need to keep it up over time to make sure the options don't go away? The only way I can see of making sure it works as intended is really just putting us right back at toggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiellyn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 How about this, for us that don't want the options why not have a option in the preferences to turn it off? You mean like... a switch, of some sort? An option? Ooh, what's the word that I'm thinking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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