What is so great about open world pvp?

[Zerothreat]

Really I don't understand why you people hold open world pvp as the epitome of pvp and that instanced pvp is crud. Someone explain it to me...

 

I mean the problem I find with it is that its just mindless zerg vs zerg.

 

Well you don't understand why I love open world pvp. First, I also love instanced pvp, which pretty much destroys your arguement of one sentence. Open pvp is how you want to play it, there is nothing stopping your "elite awesomesauce squad of the best gamers on earth" from staying in a 6 man and roaming just wrecking shop. Even if you face off against the zerg and end up losing, if your truely an elite squad you just took a ton of pub players with you and earned respect which lasts a lot longer than an objective battle.

 

I've been in several situations where the small elite squad came to save the day and defeated a larger force and although it's not a guaranteed success when you do pull it off it's an incredibly rewarding feeling.

 

Also in a game that has both open world and instanced pvp there is nothing stopping you from queueing is there? I really don't understand why a pvp'er would want less pvp in thier game whether it's instanced or open world.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Zerothreat

[Knifewrench]

If there were cities to strike against in this game, then WPvP wouldn't suck.

[Rallic]

Really I don't understand why you people hold open world pvp as the epitome of pvp and that instanced pvp is crud. Someone explain it to me...

 

I mean the problem I find with it is that its just mindless zerg vs zerg.

 

In this game nothing, in games like Shadowbane , UO and god of them all DAoC open world PvP beats any thing wow has tryed any day of the week.

 

Arena and wz PvP are the same thing over and over.

Arena you know what when and how the fights going to go each time every time before it even starts. Wz is not much better.

 

Open world is a monster all of its own. It's never the same. You don't know when how where or how many you will run into. Called targets, ff'ing, changing tactics on the fly to out with a larger group. In 2 of the 3 games listed above siege PvP in taking out a defended city or keep 100vs100. Vent teams working together to keep 100+players on track working together for flanking and such.

 

This game has no such critter.

As DAoC is still a 14.99/m sub 12years after it came out it must be doing something right.

If you won't to know about open world PvP is say go read about DAoC for a good understanding. Keep in mind that its 12ish years old and plays like its that old. But the way it was done is unmatched for pvp.

 

Arena junkys. Like to think that's true PvP but they never would make it in a true open world pvp game as they cant think out side the box arena. Just do the same thing over and over. #1 #2 #3,,,,,,,, lol ya arenas Hahahahaha

Edited February 10, 2012 by Rallic

[Archendrus]

Whaddya mean by "you people"? lol. Anyways, I don't have a HUGE problem with instanced PvP, but it's become the main course, and I think that sucks. It's just like the multitude of FPS games, which is fine for FPS games, but I expect something different when playing an MMORPG.

 

There's how many planets in this game? And PvP is basically restrained to three little maps that don't even exist in the world, with shallow objectives, that you play over and over and over. It's a mini-game. There's even a cool little scoreboard at the end of it. I feel like I'm going bowling.

 

PvP, in an MMORPG, has so much more potential than just stripping it down to Call of Duty with more abilities.

[Phables]

nothing's great about it when you don't even get credit for your weekly quests

[AMKSED]

In this game nothing, in games like Shadowbane , UO and god of them all DAoC open world PvP beats any thing wow has tryed any day of the week.

 

Arena and wz PvP are the same thing over and over.

Arena you know what when and how the fights going to go each time every time before it even starts. Wz is not much better.

 

Open world is a monster all of its own. It's never the same. You don't know when how where or how many you will run into. Called targets, ff'ing, changing tactics on the fly to out with a larger group. In 2 of the 3 games listed above siege PvP in taking out a defended city or keep 100vs100. Vent teams working together to keep 100+players on track working together for flanking and such.

 

This game has no such critter.

As DAoC is still a 14.99/m sub 12years after it came out it must be doing something right.

If you won't to know about open world PvP is say go read about DAoC for a good understanding. Keep in mind that its 12ish years old and plays like its that old. But the way it was done is unmatched for pvp.

 

Arena junkys. Like to think that's true PvP but they never would make it in a true open world pvp game as they cant think out side the box arena. Just do the same thing over and over. #1 #2 #3,,,,,,,, lol ya arenas Hahahahaha

 

Obviously you have never been good at PvP.

[Amp_]

I prefer open world pvp because it's more dynamic than warzones. That doesn't mean I dislike warzones. I like them a lot, but they end up being a bit monotonous after a while. I would much rather have the variety that world pvp has to offer.

[Rallic]

Obviously you have never been good at PvP.

 

Wow us arena junkyard trash talk.

If you think wow was in any way a PvP game or this you mater not to me.

If you have never played PvP in a true PvP game your PvP skills are bunk and utterly useless.

 

I can restart my DAoC account I have not logged into for 2 years and have instant invites for 8 mans . That's what matter to me.

 

Your point of view on PvP just don't matter for me as i see you much more like a fps or pveraider. Just the way it is .

 

Arena junkyarders can't think past there macroed skills. That's how I see it , and from ehat iv seen in Illum with the pubs not learning to flank the imps even with numbers I'm spot on for the wow kiddys PvP skills

[ilifus]

Noting for now..

 

But i hope they check my signature..

[Ineedmoreletters]

I see all these insults slung at Fps players. Explain to me exactly how Fps' aren't pvp. You can kill many times your own number if your good or lucky. There isn't pve interference there is no time investments to make your dude better. Calling an fps not a pvp game is like calling basketball not a real pvp game.

 

Stating that perhaps many versions of pvp aren't your preferred style would be more accurate. Because what this comes down to is favored play styles not "skill" or real pvp.

 

Also a side not about gear balance complaints guess what, life isn't fair either some are taller some are stronger, and among those there are the more dedicated to their cause who will rise above. Gear is the latter in this game at least and im sorry if it bothers you.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ineedmoreletters

[FoxNemhauser]

two factions for open pvp is not enough, you either need to have more than two or none at all

 

i've played a korean game called DEKARON, yes, it was grindy - but the pvp system was done very well there.

 

after leaving starting locations - you could attack anyone that was not in your party, so basically groupped FFA.

 

guilds were groupping people and guild leaders were making ("on the paper") alliances and wars with other guilds - so the "factions" were fluid, on top of that there were many neutral people.

 

people cared for the balance and people cared who was on which side (if some player is a douche - he won't be allowed in our guild... in any other games he can just reroll to your side and you can't do anything about that, he is technically your "ally")

 

enraged guilds (that were killing everything except their own kind) of course also were there, but there were also enough of the "noble" guilds to offset the balance

[Supersaiyanswag]

All the bashing on each other is getting really tiresome. I've played DAoC and have seen what great world PvP can be, this game at current design state doesn't have it. Sure it was fun running around with friends taking out larger groups but a true PvPer (in my opinion) doesn't need a certain type of PvP to have fun.

 

In instanced PvP you can be creative, you can come up with different unique strategies to be victorious, you can have fun. Is it as varied as world PvP? No of course not, but just because something is different doesn't mean you have to hate people who like it.

 

I played WoW too, I was a big arena fan, playing at higher rating seeing other skilled players and coming up with ways to beat people who previously beat you is also fun.

 

Sure I had fun in DAoC running my 8 man group using guerilla tactics to take down much larger groups, but what made that fun was the competition. I still have fun fighting premade vs premade in warzones, slugging it out to see who is the better team. I've also made an 8 man ops and taken down a 24 man ops in Ilum by kiting throught choke points using terrain to our advantage and other tactics.

 

So no, this game isn't DAoC and will never be that is correct. But its also not trying to be, have fun with what you have and have fun with competition or stop playing.

 

True world PvP isn't better than Instanced PvP, its different. You may not like it but that just means its not your style. Just because you like apples, doesn't make them better than oranges.

[Moriam]

There will always be this argument with comparing open PvP ( or sandbox style games ) with theme park games ( like WoW , SW:TOR ..... ) and the fact is there is no real comparison , it's like apples and oranges . Open PvP means risk for reward and not knowing what could be around that corner , its about creating your own conflict and making your own path , where theme park games are more targeted toward the " everyone is a ****** " type game play , where gear is the goal and PvP is smaller scale and generally instanced.Is one better then the other? Well that's a matter of opinion, but I think if some developer out there took the best of both very different world and put them together we would have one pretty cool game.

 

You may be onto something here. I think it is not just a OWpvp vs Instanced pvp debate but more of a themepark mmo vs sandbox mmo debate...

[Moriam]

@ Moriam

 

The fun part about open world pvp, at least in DAOC, was that small groups could kill several times their own numbers with group coordination and skill. As a group of 8 you could encounter another 8 and destroy them then instantly run into a zerg of 16 and destroy them. This type of feet is not possible in instanced pvp. Obviously this dream only works depending on how the game mechanics work.

 

The other thing great about world pvp, when done in the way I ideally envison it is, it's actually about just killing people. It's not about capping some objective or having to play defense or something.

 

And as for everyone that loves areas... sorry I'm not a big fan of running around a pillar for 5 minutes to avoid LOS. It's just silly.

 

Yea I get it, but this feeling isn't exclusive to Open world pvp. I have several times (not often) been in arena matches where we lost a person and still managed to eek out a victory in a 2v3 situation. We yelled on skype "**** Yeah!". Or in a rated battleground came back from a losing warsong gulch down two points and pick ourselves back up and score three consecutive points.

 

That feeling is not only for open world pvp.

 

Also this argument about camping around a pillar that so many people make fun of I think kind of misses the point. Arena was very competitive, everyone would use every little advantage they could get their hands on to eek out a win. In some maps you had pillars which provided a good barrier for line of sight, some maps did not. So ofcourse people would pillar hump. You would have too if you were in it for the competition...

Edited February 10, 2012 by Moriam

[Tic-]

Really I don't understand why you people hold open world pvp as the epitome of pvp and that instanced pvp is crud. Someone explain it to me...

 

I mean the problem I find with it is that its just mindless zerg vs zerg.

 

Sounds like bad development to me.

 

DAoC had a good thing, and a nice direction, was it perfect? Nope. Yet it could be something that was developed further.

 

Sadly, its a whole lot easier to stick three nodes in a room, and tell the players to defend two and you win, game, after game, after game.

[Razot]

Really I don't understand why you people hold open world pvp as the epitome of pvp and that instanced pvp is crud. Someone explain it to me...

 

I mean the problem I find with it is that its just mindless zerg vs zerg.

 

 

 

Sigh!

 

Its hard to explain...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0dZM5ZB0p0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOVbPSmv-QI

 

Tactics!!

heart pounding!!!!

 

When you go into a WF you know what to expect and for the most part its a zerg fest.. In open world PVP you have no idea so you have to adapt and think. Its real team work and like in EVE lets say i have been in 6 month long wars, and have been in 18 hours ops..

 

Open world PVP brings a sense of community and purpose to a guild.

 

Reading this thread has made me see how far down the MMO world has gone.. and they call themselves PVPers no less... SAD DAY for me!

Edited February 10, 2012 by Razot

[Chucktylah]

Reading this thread makes me miss:

 

old school UO before 3rd dawn when all the armor was the same just medable or not. Huge faction wars that could last more than 24 hrs. Now that's open world pvp.

 

everquest sullon zek server where fights could last 20 even 30 minutes 1v1 where the reward is being able to link their "coin" to your friends and simply say "coint". or holding a new lvl 10 evil or newt down unconcious on the ground for 38 minutes with flame lick until he agrees to delete his evil/newt toon and roll a good guy. (yes i did this once) protecting good zones and raiding evil/newt zones. now that's open world pvp.

 

everquest rallos zek server our guild logging in 20 ogres and trolls to block a zoneout spot where a lowbie twink is experience grinding with his fungi tunic on while our twink rogue takes him out and loots his fungi cause he too stupid to pull ring. now that's open world pvp.

[Roak]

it is hard to explain.

 

first up, having a game with pve ruleset and pvp ruleset that is identical apart from a perma flag is world pvp but not good world pvp. it is just a system that promotes ganking tacked onto a game world built for pve.

 

proper world pvp (in my opinion) requires pvp being built into the world at a core level, and requires a risk versus reward system with actual consequences or loss.

 

examples of this are:

 

ultima: criminal system, full loot, murders suffered skill loss on death, pvp depth: 4-faction system, order/chaos system, guild warring, criminal system, player bounties

 

swg: single ruleset, optional pvp flag, any faction based action in the world caused flag (healing flagged player, killing enemy npc etc), ownable destroyable faction bases

 

eve: don't know much about eve but it has proper pvp.

 

a sandbox mmorpg is a better canvas to paint open world pvp on than a themepark mmolite. this is because good exciting world pvp requires people to be in the world not just for pvp but to be playing the game for other reasons, when the game is just a safezone lobby (fleet) for instanced content players have no reason to go into the pvp part of the world, this means the only people in the world are only there for pvp and so promotes zergs running around looking for other zergs/stragglers.

 

having reasons for everyone to be in the world for many different reasons promotes dynamic pvp, and the spontaneity of dynamic pvp is what most world pvp players prefer over instanced pvp (there are also bads that want to overlevel gank people with 0 risk to themselves but 90% of these wouldn't last in a proper pvp mmo).

Edited February 10, 2012 by Roak

[Drakks]

Nothing is good about OWpvp in and of itself - no game has really made that globally appealing, and it's become less and less so as they gradually removed any penality for dying.

 

To try and spice this up, they added Objective based OWpvp.. and that works on an implementation by implementation basis. I think most people who enjoyed MMO pvp have fond memories of UO, or DAoC (some mention Eve in this, but I've never found competitive Excel in space to be intriguing).

 

I think the basic point is the MMO pvp without objectives can be pretty boring, so some of the better implemenatations of it borrow heavily from PvE and mix the two in varying amounts.

[goxwerd]

OWPVP != Zerg

 

 

I was hardcore RVR in daoc.. i was hardcore wow pvp classic(old title grind) then arena for all the years i played. I was the same in Aion then back to Wow arena.

 

 

I dont understand why people seem to think bad of one or the other.

 

OWPVP has the chance to be some of the most skillful think on your feet pvp it also can be an unfair #s game.

 

Arena can be an awesome game with tons of skill and teamwork involved. It can also be a scripted team duel that comp matters more than anything else.

 

 

Both have their ups and downs. The problem is OWpvp lately has been the awful wow model which is not what real OWpvpers want. So its a bad example. Ilum is not the best OWpvp has to offer..

 

 

I go through phases personally. I like doing open world stuff and i get into an arena kick too. But tbh i had more fun in daoc rvr than i ever did in the 2600+ bracket in wow arena. I did enjoy both though.

[Rowak]

Oh I get it, I played SWG for many years and that game had some of the most unbalanced world PvP. I won some and I lost some. And it was stupid because the only time we won/lost was due to the fact who had more numbers. And that's not only factor, such as who has a better PC or internet speed to fight through the lag that comes with the #s.

 

 

OWPvP is a bad system to measure who is good/bad. If anyone, OWPvP needs to be the minigame (while still not receiving less or more) than WZs.

 

Really because I played SWG for years and there were small guilds that could ROFLSTOMP zerg guilds. Maybe you just sucked at PvP.

[HileyQuiggley]

The people always claiming UO and DAoC didnt have a whole lot of subs at their peak must be children because any adult would understand not many people had computers for one and played computers game on them other than that. 10+ years ago the MMO stage wasnt very big for any game. Just like money or gas prices. 10+ years ago gas was a buck and some change now look at it. Do not comment of something you dont understand.

[Sevvy]

^ WoW kids just don't get it.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

If WoWkids played vanilla, they would. The roaming 5-mans in BRM, EPL, WPL, Kargath Pass, Zeppelins, etc... amazing. So fun.

 

When they introduced BGs, it was still kind of fun. Because you could camp the actual BG entrance and the surrounding area and have some fun small fights that would eventually lead to zerging.

 

Then when people could half-AFK queue from safe zones, world PvP absolutely died.

 

PvP should never be treated like raiding. MMO PvP is now, and will probably always be an instanced gear grind just like raiding. I can't even tell you how much I hate Blizzard/WoW for doing that to PvP.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Sevvy

[Roak]

The people always claiming UO and DAoC didnt have a whole lot of subs at their peak must be children because any adult would understand not many people had computers for one and played computers game on them other than that. 10+ years ago the MMO stage wasnt very big for any game. Just like money or gas prices. 10+ years ago gas was a buck and some change now look at it. Do not comment of something you dont understand.

 

yup, considering they both have had over 200k concurrent subs at some point in their history and more importantly the fact that they are both maintaining a subscription based business model after all these years proves their success much more than claiming they were fail because of wow numbers.

[Gformutorila]

I never liked open world PvP. It is not much fun trying to level when you get ganked by random people 20 levels higher then you. But I do not think PvP was very well implemented in SWTOR. Any PvP system based on gear is a bad system IMHO.

 

I suck at PvP I will admit that. But I think PvP should be held in designated areas. So that people who are questing and or leveling will not be constantly ganked. I do not care if those designated areas are instandst or not. I do think when you enter such an erea all you gear should be auto replaced by PvP gear. Meaning all people in a PvP erea should be wearing the same level of gear. And when you move up in ranks/valor you can customize the looks and stats of you gear. Fo example you can reduse power and increase surge etc. So you can fine tune you gear but the item level doesn't change. Also say low ranks gear is green, mid level is black and high level valor gear is pink with golden stars and you get a rainbow coloured halo.