Grubfist Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 True. But the talent that makes it AoE doesn't work in PvP, and if you spec high enough to get instant Force Lift you lose a lot of spike damage from Clairvoyant Strike. An Operative doesn't have to sacrifice spike damage that way. If you spec full balance, you don't lose damage, you gain a different style of damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treplos Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 You first said: That's not the topic. The topic is why Assassin and Operative space saps aren't perfectly identical. Since you can't just look at those single skills in a vacuum, you have to look at the whole toolset of both classes. That includes the fact that Operatives have much better healing, which certainly can come into play when the opponent is CCed and can't interrupt the healing. So you wanted to compared the whole toolset, and not just Sleep Dart. Those were your own words. Fine. I indulged you and I asked you a question based on your own words. Two 8s mezzes? Care to list them? You surely are not counting Sleep Dart? It is useless for combat LOL. I'm starting to think you do not have an Operative or none that you PVP with. Please list me the CC that your Shadow has and I will list you what CC an Operative has. Then suddenly you have cold feet, and you are avoiding what you initially wanted to discuss: Dude, Sleep Dart IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE THREAD! Do you even know what you're arguing about? Well, make up your mind, bud. Stop slapping yourself and stop contradicting yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamosh Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Operative: Evasion - 100% dodge, 3 seconds, 1m cooldown, removes all hostile effects with Avoidance Training Shield Probe - bubble, 15 seconds, 45s cooldown Healing - usable anytime, all the time, on all damage Shadow: Deflection - 50% dodge, 12 seconds, 2m cooldown Resilience - 100% resistance vs force and tech attacks, 3 seconds (5 if tank specced), 45 second cooldown, also removes all hostile effects You sure you want to give up that anytime healing? and yet with all those shadows claiming that op/sc are better there is way more shadows then there ever was ops/sc at least on my servers every tryed healing with a dps specced op/sc? it casts forever by that time you are stunned, interruped, dead shield probe: absorbs 1.5k dmg thats like 1 hit evasion: 3 seconds exactly vs white dmg Edited February 12, 2012 by mamosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dampiel Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 OP: Because Operatives are like severely gimped Assassins. They have slightly higher burst, and are worse everywhere else. never has a more truer statement been made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YMIHere Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Does it even matter? You invisadudes only use it to see if I'll blow my CC breaker on it. >=( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 If you spec full balance, you don't lose damage, you gain a different style of damage It's pressure, not spike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalare Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well i've never being hit by an assassin for 5k damage from stealth. You mean period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 So you wanted to compared the whole toolset, and not just Sleep Dart. Yes, since Sleep Dart was the focus of the whole post. So you take Sleep Dart and then look at the whole toolset as it relates to Sleep Dart. Then you said 'lolz, Sleep Dart sucks! How you can include that!'. Well, because Sleep Dart is the whole point. Reading comprehension, learn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 and yet with all those shadows claiming that op/sc are better there is way more shadows then there ever was ops/sc at least on my servers every tryed healing with a dps specced op/sc? it casts forever by that time you are stunned, interruped, dead Well, on my server there's definitely way more Operatives/Scoundrels than Assassins/Shadows. And yes, I have healed with a damage specced Op. You don't try to main heal with it, you just throw in a spot heal hear and there when it's really needed. And certainly not when being focused on. It's a team game, remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrandis Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Because of Prenerf. Sleep dart into a perfectly and easy to position Shoot First(the ability that used to crit hard enough to delete classes) Knockdown would've been broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inseeisyou Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 You are comparing two separate classes which are not supposed to be mirrored... Assassins also don't have the burst DPS capability of Scoundrels, or a healing tree... OMG BUGGED?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrandis Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 You are comparing two separate classes which are not supposed to be mirrored... Assassins also don't have the burst DPS capability of Scoundrels, or a healing tree... OMG BUGGED?! Actually what he's tring to say the bioware manipulated the resolve system in regards to the two abilities. Both are mez's that have the exact same duration. Yet one uses less resolve. He wants to know why, I sure as hell don't know why anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xkanne Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Well i've never being hit by an assassin for 5k damage from stealth. Loled ... try to fight Operative vs Tank(assassin) w/o guard, he will crush You in a few sec... im almost full BM now and i hit Assassins for 800-1700 crit! Hiddenstrike dmg while they constant hit me for 3-4k+... Try to hit Tankassin for more than 2k ... i wish to see that. Get atlast 650 Expertise and try to talk then. They have Force Speed, Longer slow, few Shields, Grip, more hp, more dmg, a lot more survivability, while we have 1 small absorb probe and Evansion which ofc almost never work. Assassin's cant be compared to Operatives. Now they have bigger Burst than we have + more AOE dmg. Edited February 12, 2012 by xkanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolen Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 What is SAP? I don't have this skill or tree talent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Actually what he's tring to say the bioware manipulated the resolve system in regards to the two abilities. Both are mez's that have the exact same duration. Yet one uses less resolve. He wants to know why, I sure as hell don't know why anymore. Then you haven't been paying attention. It's because Operatives/Scoundrels have abilities that provide too much synergy with Sleep Dart that Assassins/Shadows don't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treplos Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Then you haven't been paying attention. It's because Operatives/Scoundrels have abilities that provide too much synergy with Sleep Dart that Assassins/Shadows don't have. You again. Making things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrandis Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Then you haven't been paying attention. It's because Operatives/Scoundrels have abilities that provide too much synergy with Sleep Dart that Assassins/Shadows don't have. Exactly what Synergy? I'm curious? You have a knockdown, I have a knockdown. You have an 8s Whirlwind/lift, I have 8s Flashbang (mines 5m AoE, yours is 30m range) You have an out of combat Stealth CC, I have an out of combat stealth CC(mine uses full resolve, yours doesn't) You have a 4s Stun, I have a 4s stun. (Yours is 30m range, my is 30 second cooldown) Edited February 12, 2012 by Kyrandis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 You again. Making things up. You again. Ignoring reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toushiro-kun Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Exactly what Synergy? I'm curious? You have a knockdown, I have a knockdown. You have an 8s Whirlwind/lift, I have 8s Flashbang (mines 5m AoE, yours is 30m range) You have an out of combat Stealth CC, I have an out of combat stealth CC(mine uses full resolve, yours doesn't) You have a 4s Stun, I have a 4s stun. (Yours is 30m range, my is 30 second cooldown) QFT! Some of you people are being quite ridiculous, the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely NO reason for the two to be different with respect to resolve, and that used to be the case, they changed it in a recent patch and I don't know if it was intentional or not but either way it's stupid. My main is 50 scoundrel and I have a level 40 shadow alt and I can say that some of your complains are ridiculous. "We don't have a healing tree derpity derp!" Well yeah you don't, but scoundrels don't have a tanking tree, so what's your point? And it's not as if the OP is asking for shadow's sap to be nerfed, he's asking for parity between the two abilities, that can also be achieved by making the scoundrel sap give as much resolve as the shadow one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogar Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Loled ... try to fight Operative vs Tank(assassin) w/o guard, he will crush You in a few sec... im almost full BM now and i hit Assassins for 800-1700 crit! Hiddenstrike dmg while they constant hit me for 3-4k+... Try to hit Tankassin for more than 2k ... i wish to see that. Get atlast 650 Expertise and try to talk then. They have Force Speed, Longer slow, few Shields, Grip, more hp, more dmg, a lot more survivability, while we have 1 small absorb probe and Evansion which ofc almost never work. Assassin's cant be compared to Operatives. Now they have bigger Burst than we have + more AOE dmg. Lol what? More AoE damage? That's a big joke right? Kinetic has slow time(7.5s CD 10m) and a meaningless force breach (15s CD 600 damage), balance force in balance (15s CD), infiltration literally nothing, how can this compare with orbital strike, the grenade on 6s CD and the carabine burst. As for tank assassins your numbers are so wrong. You just have to interrupt his TT/FL (easier said than done I know) and the rest is pretty subpar. As for the rest of the thread, I think the original question is legitimate (and one I've wondered since I started WZ with my operative). I would love to hear Bioware about this. The difference in the toolsets seem pretty tedious IMO. I don't feel like having the sleeping dart do 800 resolve would be OP really. Maybe being able to have a second mezz if you break the first is too strong but madness sins can do it too anyway. Having to spec for it or not should not be a consideration here. I would be ok if only specced forcelift/sleeping dart would give max resolve but right it sure feels injust. And yeah, I play both (jedi shadow main and operative alt). Edit : Actually, specced forcelift do give full resolve as of now because of the stun. The thing is using sap and then force lift feels more natural (and CD efficient) than flashbang and then sleeping dart. Edited February 12, 2012 by Sogar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Exactly what Synergy? I'm curious? You have a knockdown, I have a knockdown. Yes You have an 8s Whirlwind/lift, I have 8s Flashbang (mines 5m AoE, yours is 30m range) Yours is also AoE, while mine isn't instant unless I give up spike damage. This is one of the big ones, imo. You have an out of combat Stealth CC, I have an out of combat stealth CC(mine uses full resolve, yours doesn't) Because you would be able to chain it with an instant Flash Bang while also retaining all your spike damage, while I can't do both. You have a 4s Stun, I have a 4s stun. (Yours is 30m range, my is 30 second cooldown) And you left out: You have heals, I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGolubets Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Even if we forget about assasins here - one cc, espessially mez, should not give full resolve bar - it's plain stupid. It looks worse when one class has a proper version and another doesn't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGolubets Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 And you left out: You have heals, I don't. You have guard and other tank cds. Healer-Tank symmetry here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 And you left out: You have heals, I don't. Assassins have superior survivability. Interrupt kolto injection and you are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toushiro-kun Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) And you left out: You have heals, I don't. See, now you're just being ridiculous. We could chain sleep dart with flash bang and retain all our burst damage??? Heck, I was under the impression that our burst came from stealth, if we chained sleep dart with flash bang we would lose a large portion of our burst because we would now be out of stealth and in combat. BTW, if we're comparing only infiltration vs. scrapper, those heals are horrible and are very unlikely to save your life, not to mention that they don't really bring a lot in terms of group usefulness given their really long cast time. Unlike your taunts which are a marvel to have in a team even if you're not kinetic combat spec. Also, your stun is 30m range, ours is 4m, not to mention you guys have force speed for gap closing while we don't have anything. If you're really going to try and compare the two classes' sets then at least be honest about them. And again, no one is asking for a nerf to your sap, then it would just be useless, pretty much the way ours is right now. Edited February 12, 2012 by Toushiro-kun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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