Mercs and Agents Useless in Huttball.

[Typheran]

He DID mention Huttball. Also, last time I checked, EVERYTHING listed here was good for huttball matches, especially since PUGs tend to be drawn towards focusing down one healer and ignoring everything else. Even if he's NOT actively watching the ball carrier, it's still pretty freakin' distracting.

 

Everything he mentions I agreed with.. Mercs CAN do great DPS. DPS does not make you cap. A Merc CANNOT stop a good SORC... bubble + Force run = LOS and outdistancing DPS.

 

 

DPS DOES NOT WIN YOU HUTTBALL.

 

I and valor 51 with a full set of champ gear. Merc's are fine in PVP... just not in huttball.

 

Hell I wish I could make it easier to understand. If a merc wins a huttball match it's because his team carried him. He might have DPS'd a ball carrier once, he might have gotten lucky and scored when the whole enemy team was on the far side of the map, but in the end They do not have the toolset to be amazing in huttball.

 

I have yet to see an argument to convince me otherwise. Telling me to sit on the ramps and DPS doesn't prove anything. Telling me to respec as a healer doesn't prove anything. A Sorc can do EVERYTHING can do.. but better.

[Anatlos]

 

Hell I wish I could make it easier to understand. If a merc wins a huttball match it's because his team carried him. He might have DPS'd a ball carrier once, he might have gotten lucky and scored when the whole enemy team was on the far side of the map, but in the end They do not have the toolset to be amazing in huttball.

 

If any class at all is capable of single-handedly winning in a warzone, then why do we have teams at all? Could it be because it's a team-oriented game? The merc's team doesn't carry him, they simply work effectively together, with contributions from the merc.

 

And if DPS doesn't help win huttball, then tell me, please: WHAT THE HELL IS KILLING THE BALL CARRIER!?

Edited February 10, 2012 by Anatlos

[Astarica]

Some classes are stronger in Huttball in the sense that they're the heroes. They're the guy that leap across 5 guys to score, or grapple an enemy into fire before he can score.

 

But you can't have 8 heroes in a team. Merc/Agent are never going to compete for the 'hero' spot. But after you have your hero (most likely Jugg or PT as ball carrier), who else is on your team? Having 4 heroes on the team doesn't improve your chances since there's still only one ball. So you still need the people who can effectively do stuff without the ball. The best defense is to ensure the enemy never touches the ball, so DPS is still important. Further, the map favors range DPS and burst DPS which fits the strength of the classes. After all, you have to kill the ball carrier to get the ball back. Maybe some class has a better combination of ball running/DPS/utility, but DPS by itself is very valuable as long as you have at least one 'hero' character on the team who can take care of all the non-DPS related heroics.

 

Now if your team consist of 8 Mercs + Snipers, you're probably screwed since you've absolutely no way of scoring. But if even one of those guy is say, Juggernaut, he provides all the heroic qualities that the other 7 guys don't have, and as long as the 7 other guys can clear enough of a path to him, it's perfectly fine that these 7 guys have literally no ball running skills at all.

[Kunovega]

Mercs useless?

 

Let's see what you can do with a properly specced Merc...

 

One of the best AoE knockbacks in the game. 15-20 sec cooldown. Infinitely better than Inquisitor's knockback.

9 sec cooldown single target knockback.

Free instant heal.

Healing shield whatever it's called for Mercs.

Supercharged AoE heal for 10% damage reduction.

Uninterruptable with shield up.

Normal heals.

Pretty much unkillable unless they REALLY focus you, and then your carrier is free to do whatever they wish.

Can spam power shot/tracer missile at carrier from wherever when appropriate.

 

You just need to L2P. I know because I play a commando hybrid and I do all these things and just laugh while knocking down the entire enemy team over and over again and do whatever I want the rest of the time. A correctly played Merc/Commando is untouchable in Huttball. Same with Alderaan CW if you stay on the balconies at mid.

 

you need to L2P

 

you have completely confused two different trees in merc, with the list that you have created it would require two full trees

 

you have so many inaccuracies in that list its not even worth picking apart, what youve listed is a complete misunderstanding of what is possible within a single build especially as an arsenal spec

 

and 9 second cooldown knockback? what planet are you on? what class are you playing? your list is so wrong its ludicrous

 

have you actually played a merc? do you know how useless that rocket punch knockback is? it doesnt matter that its every 9 seconds, its a SLOW animation and it only knocks back 2 meters.

 

it takes litterally 1 step to move back into position, the amount of time it takes to be back in range from that knockback is the amount of time it takes for the animation to complete and the merc put their feet back on the floor

 

this means that there is no value to the knockback, the person being knockedback is simply not removed from the fight in any meaningful way and is able to continue DPS at the same time the merc animation from the punch completes

Edited February 10, 2012 by Kunovega

[Anatlos]

Some classes are stronger in Huttball in the sense that they're the heroes. They're the guy that leap across 5 guys to score, or grapple an enemy into fire before he can score.

 

But you can't have 8 heroes in a team. Merc/Agent are never going to compete for the 'hero' spot. But after you have your hero (most likely Jugg or PT as ball carrier), who else is on your team? Having 4 heroes on the team doesn't improve your chances since there's still only one ball. So you still need the people who can effectively do stuff without the ball. The best defense is to ensure the enemy never touches the ball, so DPS is still important. Further, the map favors range DPS and burst DPS which fits the strength of the classes. After all, you have to kill the ball carrier to get the ball back. Maybe some class has a better combination of ball running/DPS/utility, but DPS by itself is very valuable as long as you have at least one 'hero' character on the team who can take care of all the non-DPS related heroics.

 

Now if your team consist of 8 Mercs + Snipers, you're probably screwed since you've absolutely no way of scoring. But if even one of those guy is say, Juggernaut, he provides all the heroic qualities that the other 7 guys don't have, and as long as the 7 other guys can clear enough of a path to him, it's perfectly fine that these 7 guys have literally no ball running skills at all.

 

But, but, but!! Why can't we do everything!? WE DEMAND BUFFS TO BE EXACTLY EQUAL IN EVERY WAY TO EVERY CLASS!!

[Trauglodyte]

if you are one of the idiots who think tracer needs to be nerfed you have not even bothered to understand the class

 

tracer is a weaker version of powershot and is the weakest of all attacks in a dps merc's rotation

 

if you actually think tracer missle is the danger from a merc you are truly bad at this game

 

other classes have hits that land for as much or more than tracer, please l2p before you whine over the weakest move in a mercs skill set

 

It isn't the damage of Tracer Missile that I think will be nerfed. It is the Armor Pen that you get on top of the -35% armor pen from High Velocity. I can see all armor pens getting nailed after they tuned down Acid Blade/Flichette Round.

[Kunovega]

But, but, but!! Why can't we do everything!? WE DEMAND BUFFS TO BE EXACTLY EQUAL IN EVERY WAY TO EVERY CLASS!!

 

fail

 

every attack that a merc has is matched by a sorc

 

unload? channeld lightning: identical functionality

 

4 second stun from electro dart? yea, the sorc version has a shorter cooldown AND it does damage

 

you can go skill for skill with everything a merc has and the same skill exists for a sorc, usually for cheaper resource costs, often with the same or added damage and always with more utility

 

thing is, you run out of your list on mercs skills before you run out of sorc skills

 

after youve matched skill for skill everything a merc can do with what a sorc can do, now explain all the extra skills a sorc gets that a merc does not

 

you cant, you can just keep ignoring the problem and crying over tracer missles being op without actually understanding the game and how it works

[Kunovega]

It isn't the damage of Tracer Missile that I think will be nerfed. It is the Armor Pen that you get on top of the -35% armor pen from High Velocity. I can see all armor pens getting nailed after they tuned down Acid Blade/Flichette Round.

 

if they did this there would be zero purpose to a merc dps

 

as it is a merc dps is the same damage as a sorc with less utility

 

nerf armor pen and its current function and merc will be less dps, and less utility and then explain why the class exists if its every function is less than anothers?

 

as it is we barely edge out the other dps classes and only by a very tiny margin, that one sliver of usefullness is what we cling to and pretend that makes up for all the utility we lack

 

as it is, mercs have the least value to a pvp team, but if played well can at least appear to contribute, take away that edge on dps and this class will have zero value at all

[XyriusSES]

Nah bud

[nexusbob]

Being spam CC'd while I have to wait for hazards. Not having the midigation abilities like sorc's or Warriors. No abilities to bypass hazards.

 

Why would a pro team want a merc or agent on their team?

 

DPS does not equal object scores.

 

Without some balance between classes huttball is very broken.

 

Without those other classes to carry us We are on auto lose.

 

go try play a commando we got no damage at all in pvp we got stuns we got no fast skill or eny ting we need to stand stell like a damm fuk stone and look stupid

[buttski]

honestly, u must suck hardcore on your merc to say they are worthless in crapball.

[ryanko]

force leap anyone?

[Trauglodyte]

if they did this there would be zero purpose to a merc dps

 

as it is a merc dps is the same damage as a sorc with less utility

 

nerf armor pen and its current function and merc will be less dps, and less utility and then explain why the class exists if its every function is less than anothers?

 

as it is we barely edge out the other dps classes and only by a very tiny margin, that one sliver of usefullness is what we cling to and pretend that makes up for all the utility we lack

 

as it is, mercs have the least value to a pvp team, but if played well can at least appear to contribute, take away that edge on dps and this class will have zero value at all

 

Ops and Scoundrels said the same thing. Dropping High Velocity down to 15% Armor Pen would do just fine.

[Kunovega]

Ops and Scoundrels said the same thing. Dropping High Velocity down to 15% Armor Pen would do just fine.

 

ops and scoundrels STILL keep up with a merc in dps potential while also having stealth and better 1v1 take down ability and they have a more useful stun

 

the tweak to them did not bring them below anyone else and they have group invis and so on

 

before you start talking about nerfing a merc you better recognize that a sorc is already a merc with a bigger toolkit and ask for them to be nerfed too

 

personally i dont actually want sorcs/sages nerfed i think they are balanced well. the problem is after having played one i now see some of the glaring issues that make mercs under powered in pvp

[DragonInAWagon]

i dont even try to hold the ball. i just pass it to a tank and hope for the best. I usually stay on the upper ledges and just rdps whomever walks below me. But i do agree with you, it is very rare for us to score or do anything significant.

[Shadow_Spec]

Merc + Tracer Missile = Faceroll faceroll faceroll.

[Verraton]

ops and scoundrels STILL keep up with a merc in dps potential while also having stealth and better 1v1 take down ability and they have a more useful stun

 

the tweak to them did not bring them below anyone else and they have group invis and so on

 

before you start talking about nerfing a merc you better recognize that a sorc is already a merc with a bigger toolkit and ask for them to be nerfed too

 

personally i dont actually want sorcs/sages nerfed i think they are balanced well. the problem is after having played one i now see some of the glaring issues that make mercs under powered in pvp

 

 

This. Excellent post.

 

I'd be perfectly happy if they removed merc rapid scan healing and gave us a nerfed jet charge though.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Verraton

[XForget]

ops and scoundrels STILL keep up with a merc in dps potential while also having stealth and better 1v1 take down ability and they have a more useful stun

 

the tweak to them did not bring them below anyone else and they have group invis and so on

 

before you start talking about nerfing a merc you better recognize that a sorc is already a merc with a bigger toolkit and ask for them to be nerfed too

 

personally i dont actually want sorcs/sages nerfed i think they are balanced well. the problem is after having played one i now see some of the glaring issues that make mercs under powered in pvp

 

Group invis is anything but useful lmfao

[Sookster]

HAHAHAHAHAH, do what? hahahahahaha, that was funny

 

Whats the point of passing in this game anyway? premade sorc+jugg, shield+bubble on sorc, then just sprint over acid/fire, if anyone on your way push him back/cc, score, repeat.

 

5-0 after 4 minutes, then farm medals.

 

Premades on my server do it, I do it sometimes too.

[Knifewrench]

Umm... don't troopers/BHs have a knockback that doesn't require an animation before landing? Edited February 10, 2012 by Knifewrench

[Ulltramagns]

I play a gunslinger and I found that, while the class is not good at running the ball, the best thing you can do is try to own the middle. the team that controls the neutral ball has a much greater chance at winning, and if your a bad *** dps you can do that.

[Kunovega]

Umm... don't troopers/BHs have a knockback that doesn't require an animation before landing?

 

both merc knockbacks require a jump in the air animation and you can do nothing until feet touch ground

 

with jet boost (the big one) its no big deal, youve pushed them pretty far away and slowed them, you can occasionally get in 1 free hit while they move back into position (unless they are jumpy or ranged in which case, your knockback was meaningless)

 

the 2nd knockback is rocket punch (you jump punch) and as i have been repeating over and over (and no one seems able to read) it has two problems

 

1. the distance knocked is minimal, every class can take 1 step forward and be back in range to hit you

 

and

 

2. the animation is long enough that you will not even be able to hit them while they walk back into your range

 

effectively all you have done is extended the duration of the fight by 1.5 seconds while both of you "reposition", them by taking 1 step forward and you by landing after making the jump punch and now you are both back to your original positions with nothing gained by use of the punch, grats youve now spent skill poitns to add knockback to jump punch and gained nothing but the ability to delay a fight by 1.5 seconds every 9 seconds

[Knifewrench]

both merc knockbacks require a jump in the air animation and you can do nothing until feet touch ground

 

with jet boost (the big one) its no big deal, youve pushed them pretty far away and slowed them, you can occasionally get in 1 free hit while they move back into position (unless they are jumpy or ranged in which case, your knockback was meaningless)

 

the 2nd knockback is rocket punch (you jump punch) and as i have been repeating over and over (and no one seems able to read) it has two problems

 

1. the distance knocked is minimal, every class can take 1 step forward and be back in range to hit you

 

and

 

2. the animation is long enough that you will not even be able to hit them while they walk back into your range

 

effectively all you have done is extended the duration of the fight by 1.5 seconds while both of you "reposition", them by taking 1 step forward and you by landing after making the jump punch and now you are both back to your original positions with nothing gained by use of the punch, grats youve now spent skill poitns to add knockback to jump punch and gained nothing but the ability to delay a fight by 1.5 seconds every 9 seconds

 

If it makes you feel any better I actually read that. Still has its use for clearing people off of the ledges so long as the ball carrier is not a warrior. I would imagine you can sneak up on people waiting by the edges of pyres and smack them into it.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Knifewrench

[Kunovega]

Merc + Tracer Missile = Faceroll faceroll faceroll.

 

if you think tracer is faceroll you are bad, really really bad at this game

 

the only way tracer is face roll is if you are stupid enough to stand there letting them hit you with it repeatedly, in which case every class in the game is going to destroy you all day long

 

tracer is

 

1. the weakest of all attacks a merc actually uses

 

2. on par with the weak set up attacks of all other properly spec'd dps classes

 

3. the setup for real attacks and should account for half or less of an attack rotation cycle (no more than 5 in a 15 second cycle)

 

4. can be interupted easily by any melee and sorcs

 

5. can be walked away from easily due to its short range and long cast time. it roots the caster in place and you can be out of range before getting hit by more than 1. once out of range a merc can never catch up to you if you continue moving

[Kunovega]

If it makes you feel any better I actually read that. Still has its use for clearing people off of the ledges so long as the ball carrier is not a warrior. I would imagine you can sneak up on people waiting by the edges of pyres and smack them into it.

 

it has its rare uses yes, i just tire of seeing the constant "but you have 2 amazing knockbacks" line being spouted everywhere when both are highly situational, the 2nd one even more so than the jet boost basic one we start with

 

as a skill that requires points put into it, i think it could be tweaked to work a bit better. keeping the 2nd one single target is fine, but it should have at least the same knockback range as jet boost, or dam close. this would bring it on par with the value of force jump in pvp

 

if we could knock someone back long enough to get in 1 extra hit every now and than with rocket punch, it would allow a bit more back and forth and maybe even a fighting chance vs a good marauder