Sorcs make me want to quit

[Gyrovague]

My only real issue is that they aren't actually all that squishy. You do zero (or close to zero) damage at range, but when you get close you only do moderate damage. Yeah, you can do a couple of interrupts but with Resolve you only prevent a few casts.

 

Melee is at a HUGE disadvantage at range, but the situation isn't fully reversed when we get within melee range.

 

Summary: PvP on my sorcerer is way more fun & easy than it is on my assassin.

[Gyrovague]

Don't confuse high damage potential with high damage.

 

Don't equate high damage potential to high AoE potential.

 

Don't confuse high mobility and solid survivability with invulnerability.

 

 

The fact is, sorcerer/sages had the most players from the get-go.

 

Why? Because they were the only caster class offered in the game. Think warlock + mage + shadow priest + elemental shaman player base all playing sorcerer/sage.

 

A fair share of people played juggernaut/marauder due to the "tanking" and warrior nature of the class.

 

The least amount of people played Agents because honestly the class in the beginning was extremely unappealing. I actually made an assassin and an operative before I made a sorcerer. I played assassin because I thought they were like rogues. I was dead wrong. I played operative because they were actually the "rogue" class, but the beginning class mechanic play (cover + snipe, etc) were just so clunky and slow and that I couldn't even get myself to finish the starting area.

 

Then comes the inquisitor. Fun story line, lightning, fast paced, and just overall interesting.

 

Again, sorcerer/sages had the most player to begin with.

 

It is common knowledge that in MMOs caster classes level the fastest and easiest besides pet classes (and everyone has pet in this game), and are the least gear-dependent.

 

So now what do we do about it?

 

The ONLY WAY you're going to "decrease" the sorcerer/sage population now is to nerf it into oblivion. As long as sorcerer/sage remains "competitive" and "balanced," people that already have geared sorcerer/sages that have not already rerolled alts will not be inclined to reroll another "main."

 

Sure, balance sorcerer/sage (and I mean true balance), but that's not going to significantly lower the sorcerer/sage population in warzone.

 

you're still going to be hit with purple lightning or rocks from multiple directions, and you're still going to come on the forum to cry about getting owned by 4+ sorcerer/sages.

 

 

You have some interesting theories about why so many sorcerers are seen, but really no evidence or proof. And that's quite a generalization about caster classes being the easiest to level. Note that even if it's true (and I would dispute that) do you really think that people pick their class based on what is easy to level?

 

If they really were "balanced" and "competitive" people wouldn't complain about seeing so many of them in warzones. In fact, if they were in fact balanced then a team would suffer from having so little diversity, so people would LIKE to see opposing teams all of the same class.

 

Face it, the only people who don't think sorcerers are OP in pvp are those who play sorcerer as their main.

[Acyu]

You have some interesting theories about why so many sorcerers are seen, but really no evidence or proof. And that's quite a generalization about caster classes being the easiest to level. Note that even if it's true (and I would dispute that) do you really think that people pick their class based on what is easy to level?

 

If they really were "balanced" and "competitive" people wouldn't complain about seeing so many of them in warzones. In fact, if they were in fact balanced then a team would suffer from having so little diversity, so people would LIKE to see opposing teams all of the same class.

 

Face it, the only people who don't think sorcerers are OP in pvp are those who play sorcerer as their main.

 

I can't help but to think you didn't actually understand my post, or read it carefully.

 

My theory is essentially based on facts.

 

Fact: Sorcerer/sages are the only "caster" classes in the game. I don't think there is any arguing in that.

 

Fact: More people chose Sith inquisitor/Jedi Consular than any other class. The statistics were posted for both beta and live showing that. Google it.

 

Fact: The least percentage of people chose Imperial Agents/[insert Republics mirror] than any other class. Same statistics.

 

Fact: Caster classes have pretty much always been designed to be less gear-dependent the leveling process compared to melee classes and such. Spells scale differently than other special attacks, and are much more forgiving for lack of gear.

 

From these facts it is not hard to infer that caster classes are appealing to a lot of players, at least a significant number more than other classes, and especially over imperial agents.

 

Caster classes have always been great levelers, but their disadvantage were in mana and squishiness. The default force recovery skill and companions solved both of those problems, making sage/sorcerers extremely fast and efficient classes to level in SWTOR.

 

 

Lastly, I never said sorcerer are currently "balanced" compared to some of the other classes. I said IF they were balanced, and as long as they remain "competitive" or "balanced," people would not be incentivized to reroll a "main," thus achieving the OP's wish of a more balanced warzone.

 

Like I said, the only option would be to buff other classes so they are better than sorcerer/sages, or to nerf sorcerer/sages so they are underpowered.

[Felene]

If they really were "balanced" and "competitive" people wouldn't complain about seeing so many of them in warzones. In fact, if they were in fact balanced then a team would suffer from having so little diversity, so people would LIKE to see opposing teams all of the same class.

 

Player complain about sorc knockback, how many of them actually try to position themselves better during their "long long long I HAVE ENOUGH SORCS" warzone experience?

 

Player complain about sorc healing/dps, how many of them actually try to interrupt/los/stun sorc during their "long long long I HAVE ENOUGH SORCS" warzone experience?

 

People have different view on "balanced" and "competitive."

 

If they can't kill it without using their brain its imbalance, if they can its competitive.

[Invictusthetaru]

As a guardian focus spec, I have not run into a sorc that I can't 1v1 w/ all my CD and all their CD up.

 

 

My problem comes from the sheer quantity of ranged in this game. As republic, between sorcs and mercs I will spend a decent amount of time deciding where it's safe to not get **** on.

 

I'm already rolling a trooper as we speak, and will probably play that more in PVP seeing as it's much easier to be ranged in PVP in every single pvp map right now.

 

 

1. Huttball - self explanatory; get ground, stay there, rain down damage. people jumping on you? mercs get a 30 second CD knock back, sorcs and their mirrors get the same.

 

2. voidstar: melee, need to be close to do the door on defense to be effective, while range just rain it in and **** them, if you decide to pick one off, you are OFF the door and not helping your team

 

3. Civil war- same as above, guard the nodes, etc.

 

 

Play a ranged class until they do something, that's what I'm doing.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Invictusthetaru

[Gyrovague]

Unless I'm understanding your argument wrong, you're saying, "If you are seeing lots of sorcerers in warzones, it's not because they are the most powerful, it's just because lots of people chose that class because it's easy to level."

 

1) The statistical slant toward Sages/Sorcerers in the initial population doesn't mirror the dramatic preponderance of those classes in warzones. Unless you've seen stats that claim there are as many Sages/Sorcerers as all other classes combined, then explaining the situation in warzones by initial class choice data doesn't add up.

 

2) You state your theory about class choice as if it were fact, when there are lots of possible explanations. Based on the conversation in my guild leading up to launch, there were lots of reasons people chose sorcerer, and not a single one of them mentioned "because it'll be easy to level." And now that we're a couple months into the game, what I hear is "Man, I'm rolling a sorcerer for pvp."

 

3) In any event, having leveled up a number of different classes, I don't find my sorcerer easier/faster to level except maybe in that I can solo some hard stuff because I can heal my pet. (Mitigated by the fact that other classes eventually get a pocket healer.) I actually think that stealth classes let you level up the fastest because you can sneak past mobs and finish quests more quickly, and Vanish (by whatever name) means you don't die if you get in over your head.

[Vales]

From another thread by another Sorc player:

 

Lvl 50 Prime-time vs other geared 50s is a COMPLETELY different animal.

 

No Sorc or Sage is going to get away from an Assassin or Shadow. They have every single piece of utility that you have (which come with better cds due to talents) sans shield which will be taken care of with one of their shock/project crits. They now have 20 seconds to crit crit crit your health away while you try and channel 800-900 Force Lightning ticks.

 

Merc/Commandos have the same range as sorcs (nullifying some of their utility) and one tracer missile/grav round drops shield. Even if Grav/Tracer is interrupted enjoy being Unloaded/Rail Shotted for 3-4k+ while your Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw hits for maybe 900 a tick, which is also easily interruptible.

 

Maras/Sents DESTROY Sages/Sorcs in a matter of seconds, not tens of seconds. Bleeds, Aoe slows, healing debuff, AOE mezz, leaps, 2 defensive CDs (one makes you invulnerable, other makes Force attacks worthless), speed boost (lasts longer than Force Speed), in combat stealth, accuracy debuff, MASSIVE single target burst dps AND hot healing offer FAR AND AWAY more utility than ONE single target stun, ONE single target mezz and one semi-spammable aoe KB and weak *** shield. Get real.

 

Even DPS specc'd tank AC's outburst Sorc/Sage DPS i.e. Pyrotech PTs and Vanguards. They also do not lack for utility with AOE stuns and grapples. DPS specc'd Juggs/Guards are able to AOE Sweep for 4-5k crits w/o costing resource, reducing (light) armor and rage bursting continuously.

 

Sorcs/Sages were getting out and out facerolled vs Operatives/Scoundrels before their nerf, and now while you MIGHT still have a fighting chance, their burst still far outweighs anything a sorc can do without casting a channeled spell. Which you're going to try and kite them, but any reasonable Op will Sever tendon, which puts a slow on you - which CAN'T be dispelled by a Force user, and by time they catch up to you their CDs have refreshed so its: Flashbang, Backstab, Shiv, Laceration for the final set up of burst.

 

Sorcs/Sages vs Snipers and Gunslingers isn't even a fair argument, using one UP class vs another UP class who's abilities can be easily LOS'd is just being disingenuous and not fit for discussion.

 

Out of ALL the classes in TOR, you knuckleheads want to NERF the one that has lowest single target BURST out of all of them, who as healing isn't even capable of outhealing a competent geared DPS on them, i.e. one using Interrupts and CC, and who doesn't have quite as much utility as you think they do.

 

GG. If you listen to these guys BW your PvP will be proven to be exactly what I think it is already: jack ****.

 

And he even forgot to mention that Shadows/Assasins have a 3 second CC/Damage immunity.

 

As a guardian focus spec, I have not run into a sorc that I can't 1v1 w/ all my CD and all their CD up.

 

 

My problem comes from the sheer quantity of ranged in this game. As republic, between sorcs and mercs I will spend a decent amount of time deciding where it's safe to not get **** on.

 

I'm already rolling a trooper as we speak, and will probably play that more in PVP seeing as it's much easier to be ranged in PVP in every single pvp map right now.

 

 

1. Huttball - self explanatory; get ground, stay there, rain down damage. people jumping on you? mercs get a 30 second CD knock back, sorcs and their mirrors get the same.

 

2. voidstar: melee, need to be close to do the door on defense to be effective, while range just rain it in and **** them, if you decide to pick one off, you are OFF the door and not helping your team

 

3. Civil war- same as above, guard the nodes, etc.

 

 

Play a ranged class until they do something, that's what I'm doing.

 

Yeah those poor melees can never get into melee range. All that stealth, charges, jumpts etc. are useless!

Edited February 9, 2012 by Vales

[HBninjaX]

Learn to interrupt and use your closing abilities when you REALLY need them.

 

yeah one caster isn't a problem, it's when you have like 5-6 all casting force lightning/pebbles and snaring you that gets annoying, and if you get the upper hand they just speed away. what a joke.

 

signed,

marauder

Edited February 9, 2012 by HBninjaX

[MoonsLightV]

Sorcs are becoming the new Bright Wizards from WAR. Actually...a lot of the things that WAR had issues with that led to the games demise is surfacing in this game. Faction imbalance, too much CC, performance problems, etc...wonder why that is?

[aboynamedsue]

powertech - 1 stun, 1 snare, 1 root, i believe they also have an aoe stun

thats' 4 cc's

 

the snare must be talented (7pts to get it), and has to proc. The root from harpoon also needs to be talented (24pts to get it). The aoe stun is granted in the mid 40s I think. I won't disagree with folks that say balance improves at end game, but still I don't think sorc's are balanced. Point for point, sorc has more cc. Plus they can heal, sprint and bubble. Armor grants a stun too, and one of their dots can be talented to snare iirc, are those included in your list.

Edited February 9, 2012 by aboynamedsue

[Acyu]

As a guardian focus spec, I have not run into a sorc that I can't 1v1 w/ all my CD and all their CD up.

 

 

My problem comes from the sheer quantity of ranged in this game. As republic, between sorcs and mercs I will spend a decent amount of time deciding where it's safe to not get **** on.

 

I'm already rolling a trooper as we speak, and will probably play that more in PVP seeing as it's much easier to be ranged in PVP in every single pvp map right now.

 

 

1. Huttball - self explanatory; get ground, stay there, rain down damage. people jumping on you? mercs get a 30 second CD knock back, sorcs and their mirrors get the same.

 

2. voidstar: melee, need to be close to do the door on defense to be effective, while range just rain it in and **** them, if you decide to pick one off, you are OFF the door and not helping your team

 

3. Civil war- same as above, guard the nodes, etc.

 

 

Play a ranged class until they do something, that's what I'm doing.

 

Honestly what you pointed out are the nature of range vs. melee in every MMO.

 

There is nothing you can change that will stop range from dpsing you from range.

 

I agree that melee is not nearly as appealing in this game and they certainly are not as prevalent as range in this game. But everyone loves to PEWPEWPEW.

 

And any PvP setting there you have to cap SOMETHING, range will be able to PEWPEW from afar.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Acyu

[Invictusthetaru]

From another thread by another Sorc player:

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah those poor melees can never get into melee range. All that stealth, charges, jumpts etc. are useless!

 

I am a guardian. I have no stealth. I have one jump on a 14 second cooldown and a knockback that restores that jump on a 60 second cooldown.

 

I can:

 

1. save my jump, and take about 2 to 3 tracer missiles / lightenings to the face (while being slowed in the case of lightning most of the time)

 

2. Jump and instantly get knocked back.

 

 

Don't even act like melees aren't at a disadvantage w/ these PVP objectives.

[Vales]

the snare must be talented (7pts to get it), and has to proc. The root from harpoon also needs to be talented (24pts to get it). The aoe stun is granted in the mid 40s I think. I won't disagree with folks that say balance improves at end game, but still I don't think sorc's are balanced. Point for point, sorc has more cc.

 

And others have more burst, more mitigation or more DPS point for point.

 

Your point?

 

I am a guardian. I have no stealth. I have one jump on a 14 second cooldown and a knockback that restores that jump on a 60 second cooldown.

 

I can:

 

1. save my jump, and take about 2 to 3 tracer missiles / lightenings to the face (while being slowed in the case of lightning most of the time)

 

2. Jump and instantly get knocked back.

 

 

Don't even act like melees aren't at a disadvantage w/ these PVP objectives.

 

I do not have to, I know that they are not. Don't act like melees are weak.

Ah yeah and please conviniently forget that you can specc a second charge and instant stasis for example.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Vales

[Gyrovague]

If they can't kill it without using their brain its imbalance, if they can its competitive.

 

It's true that there are always a few whiners who think the game is imbalanced any time they die.

 

But if you have to use all your cooldowns and be clever about timing and positioning just to counter somebody who stands there and spams buttons, that's also a kind of imbalance. Why? Because it means if that person also uses their brain they're going to beat you every time.

[Vales]

It's true that there are always a few whiners who think the game is imbalanced any time they die.

 

But if you have to use all your cooldowns and be clever about timing and positioning just to counter somebody who stands there and spams buttons, that's also a kind of imbalance. Why? Because it means if that person also uses their brain they're going to beat you every time.

 

Which is not the case.

[Invictusthetaru]

And others have more burst, more mitigation or more DPS point for point.

 

Your point?

 

 

 

I do not have to, I know that they are not. Don't act like melees are weak.

 

I never ONCE said melee are weak. I said we are way less effective at PVP as it stands right now, and that's just the truth.

 

A good marauder / sent can **** anyone 1v1, bad people even 1v3. But guess what? Against a premade that will never happen, and as a melee you will be getting stunned / knocked back and **** on.

 

Melee are extremely powerful in the right situations, I do good damage, and can set up scenerios to shine in huttball w/ guardian leap and force leap. But I can also be rendered completely ineffective by the hordes of ranged.

 

So why not just play ranged? Which is what I am on my way to doing.

[HBninjaX]

It's true that there are always a few whiners who think the game is imbalanced any time they die.

 

But if you have to use all your cooldowns and be clever about timing and positioning just to counter somebody who stands there and spams buttons, that's also a kind of imbalance. Why? Because it means if that person also uses their brain they're going to beat you every time.

 

that's my main gripe is the imbalance in terms of effort

 

lolspamming a ranged attack with impunity and getting majority mvp votes and medals is just asenine from a melee dps perspective.

[Gyrovague]

Which is not the case.

 

Please elaborate.

 

If you want to argue that my scenario does not apply to the classes in this game that are the topic of this thread that's one thing.

 

But I made a generalized statement without mentioning classes. I said that if class A has to be played expertly to beat class B being played poorly, that's imbalance. Do you really want to argue with that?

[Invictusthetaru]

Please elaborate.

 

If you want to argue that my scenario does not apply to the classes in this game that are the topic of this thread that's one thing.

 

But I made a generalized statement without mentioning classes. I said that if class A has to be played expertly to beat class B being played poorly, that's imbalance. Do you really want to argue with that?

 

That guy just counters peoples arguments with one liners and thinks he is being intelligent.

[aboynamedsue]

And others have more burst, more mitigation or more DPS point for point.

 

Your point?

 

I don't see any reduction in burst or mitigation from sorcs. Bubble and healing with sprint give you all the tools you need to survive as well as a heavily armored tank. Hybrid sage has an instant cast aoe dot, instant cast aoe, channeled aoe (which can proc to instant if talented), plus aoe knockback with stun. That is an arsenal there.

[baskynn]

not many people wanted to be LOLGLOWSTICKVADER and actually picked classes that have it easy when fighting sorcs...

 

Ill give you a hint..

 

Juggernaut is not on that list.

 

If you're playing a star wars MMO don't expect people to not be a force user. Also, making fun of jedi in a star wars forum is just stupid.

[baskynn]

And others have more burst, more mitigation or more DPS point for point.

 

Your point?

 

 

 

I do not have to, I know that they are not. Don't act like melees are weak.

Ah yeah and please conviniently forget that you can specc a second charge and instant stasis for example.

 

a second charge which you have to be EXTREMELY close to use, so that's already marked out. It's not even a charge.

 

oh I'm sorry, we can't have at least one stun that isn't channeled compared to the loads that other classes have?

 

You must have never played a melee class on here if you think that melee has the upper hand. melee definitely has the disadvantage here.

[Crankyhobo]

If you have melee and sniper on your team, going up against sorcs/mercs, you're dead, assuming everyone's equally skilled.

 

If you have more than one sniper on you're team you've already lost. But what gets my goat aside from sorcs being obviously overpowered, they excel at both healing and damage so they easily get 8+ medals, and since most pugs are idiots and MVP vote only based on medals they also get those.

[Vales]

a second charge which you have to be EXTREMELY close to use, so that's already marked out. It's not even a charge.

 

oh I'm sorry, we can't have at least one stun that isn't channeled compared to the loads that other classes have?

 

You must have never played a melee class on here if you think that melee has the upper hand. melee definitely has the disadvantage here.

 

At level 50 with proper gear most melees especially Sents/Maras and Shadows/Assas destroy most ranged.

If they don't they are bad. Simple as that.

 

Yeah and ofc 10 meter jump is worse than running there especially when you are slowed.

And sure you have no other spells sure thing brow whatever you say.

[HBninjaX]

At level 50 with proper gear most melees especially Sents/Maras and Shadows/Assas destroy most ranged.

If they don't they are bad. Simple as that.

 

Yeah and ofc 10 meter jump is worse than running there especially when you are slowed.

And sure you have no other spells sure thing brow whatever you say.

 

so in order to play the class as designed we have to give up having a life,

 

how rad is that?