Macros: Pros and Cons

[EigerX]

Hi All,

 

I've seen a lot of posts about Macros and the use of programmable keyboards, and I wanted to point out some of the advantages and disadvantages. I just got a programmable G13 gaming keypad. I did this mainly because my wife likes our computer furniture that has a narrow keyboard shelf, so with a full size keyboard I have very little room to move the mouse. Fine for web browsing, not so much for games. So I bought the G13 because it's narrower, and I put the keyboard up on the desk proper, and have just the G13 and mouse on the keyboard shelf.

 

Anyway, as soon as I did this I realized why Rift did macros the way they did. I didn't have the G13 when I played Rift, but the macro system there seemed a bit odd. They didn't allow delays or multiple abilities to be activated by one key, but they had kind of a priority system. You list abilities, and it activates the first one (and only one) that it can. Now that I know how programmable keyboards (and programmable mice) work, I realize that Rift was giving everybody the power of these programmable keyboards without having to buy the hardware.

 

BUT. There are limitations to what programmable keyboards or the Rift macro system can do. You can make it so your class can be played with fewer buttons (never just one of course, that's just people trying to make their point going to extremes). But usually when you choose to go this route, you lose a bit of control or limit yourself.

 

An example: Say you create a new character. In SWTOR, you usually have a BigHit ability (say 15 sec CD, 3 rage) and a FreeHit (no CD, builds 2 rage) ability. Alright, you think, I can macro them to be in this order:

 

BigHit

FreeHit

 

So, you hit this button and sends both keystrokes to the server. The server tries a BitHit, and if your character has enough rage, is in range, and it's not on cooldown, your character does a BigHit. That puts you in GCD so the second ability attempt is ignored, returning a "not available" error. If the BigHit can NOT be activated for whatever reason, then that ability is ignored so you're not on GCD so FreeHit is activated.

 

So if you keep pressing this button, you'll use BigHit whenever you can, and FreeHit otherwise. You now have a 1 button rotation

 

Works great until say level 4. At that point, you get say a stun with a 1 minute cooldown which costs 5 rage, say. Ok, lets tack that onto our macro:

 

Stun

BigHit

FreeHit

 

But this won't work the way you want, and that's because it will never allow you to build up enough rage to use the stun. So you can put FreeHit separate to allow you to build more rage whenever you want, and leave Stun and BigHit together, but that won't allow you to 'save" the stun to be used as an interrupt. So even with just 3 abilities you can see that there is no perfect macro to do all this, and for optimal play you need 3 buttons.

 

With a force/mana pool rather than rage the problem is delayed a bit, but you'll still not be able to let your force/mana regen when you need it to. Or with smugs or agents and the tiered regen of energy you lose control over FreeHit which would allow you to stay in the top regen tier.

 

Another example in a similar vein: If you later get a 'real' interrupt (12 sec CD off GCD) and try to macro it with your stun to create an "interrupt with whatever I can right now" button, that won't work either (though it will in Rift) because the interrupt will always trigger because it is off GCD, so if the stun triggers, then the interrupt is wasted.

 

Anyway, this shows some of the complexities and trade offs of using a programmable keyboard, or a macro system like Rift's. And I think that if anything, it adds a layer of complexity, rather than making things simpler. In some rare situations you'll be able to create a 'perfect' macro that you don't have to think about. This is usually just with some of the 'filler' abilities that are all simple attacks with different CDs, Damage, and resource requirements. You can put all of those on one button, in the order you like. Also, very limited abilities like a kick that can only be used when the target is incapacitated, or below 30% health, can usually safely be tacked onto the front of your attack macros.

 

Most often, however, you end up making complex buttons that you have to think about before pressing. "If I'm in melee range this won't do this, but this" and "if I want to get this affect I need to press this button twice." It changes the challenge from finger dexterity (can I press Shift-Alt-X quick enough) to a planning and logic puzzle.

 

Of course, if you don't mind gimping yourself and using abilities when it's not optimal, you can easily do that. I bet some players with programmable devices do that without realizing it. Otherwise, it adds a bit of a puzzle game (aka programming) to your MMO.

 

For me, it's been a great change, and I have a lot of fun (yes, I'm a nerd) programming my G13, and reprogramming it whenever I get a new ability or two. I'd still like to see BW add in a macro feature like Rift's because this would let EVERYBODY make this choice. If you want to use boring 1-button = 1-ability keybinds, great. But you'd be able to try the programming route as well.

 

So don't belittle macros and/or programmable keyboards before you try them. You're changing a finger puzzle for a brain puzzle, and I'd bet that if you prefer strategy games to reflex games then you'll like it.

 

 

Eiger

[xirinia]

This is actually exactly what people don't like in macros, or rather the way Rift implemented macros. People don't want the macro to be able to choose the best ability available at the moment.

 

As much as I hate bringing up WoW, their macro system was much more strict. It would either allow you to execute skills in a preset succession (which is usually less than optimal), or allowed you to execute different skills based on a condition (if target is friendly, heal, otherwise do some attack). That way people still had to think about what they're doing, but it reduced the number of buttons.

 

And if you're really into "brain puzzles", there are free various macros software, which can be a lot more flexible, and a hell of a lot more confusing than programmable keyboards in mice

[EigerX]

Hi Xirinia,

 

But that's just it, these macros/keyboards do not choose the "best" ability available, they choose the "First" ability available. Then the puzzle is not actually programming the macro/keyboard (which is quite easy) but to choose which abilities can work on the same button. And since very few can work together perfectly, it changes your in-combat focus from your icons and what-is-off-cooldown-so-I-press-this, to what-is-the-situation-and-will-this-button-do-what-I-want? THAT puzzle must be re-solved for each alt and whenever you get a new ability, and in a smaller way in the midst of combat.

 

I don't actually reprogram my G13 keypad each time - I have too many alts. I have that configured so 3 buttons are macros, and each activates 4 spots on my hotbar in sequence. So to juggle abilities I move the abilities around on the hotbar. With some characters I just have one ability on these, in others I have more, but rarely do I use all 4 slots for a single macro-key.

 

As soon as a macro (and at this point a programmable keyboard can no longer replace a macro) can choose an ability based on a condition then it's just a matter of time and preparation before you actually do have a 1-key character. At first you might just use one key to heal If-Friendly and attack If-Enemy. But then why not add a condition If-Friendly-And-less-than-50%-Hit-Points, and If-Enemy-and-has-this-debuff.

 

WoW has LUA right? I used LUA a bit with Runes of Magic, and did just what I'm saying above... I had one button which would execute one attack until 4 stacks of some debuff was on the target, then it'd do another attack, then something else. It was great fun programming it. Once it was done, and all the bugs worked out, I played for a few hours more before quitting and never going back. It was just too boring. That's why I was hesitant to get the G13, but without the conditionals, it's more like Rift (fun) than my experience with LUA and Runes of Magic.

 

Anyway, I'm not really saying that this should in any way be a priority for the devs... they have bigger fish to fry, and I personally don't need it. But I was hoping to maybe enlighten a few who are hardcore anti-macro that macros done right are not the end-of-fun that many seem to think they are.

 

 

Eiger

[Vodamin]

There is a reason why macros dsnt work for some classes, like they do in rift.

The reason is called 'class mechanic'. Ur example with the jedi knight/sith war and their mechanic to build and use rage is very good.

 

In rift u have only 1 prerequisite to execute an ability - this is the cooldown.

In TOR u have this + the specific mechainic of the class - for example building and using rage (not sure about the rest o the classes, i am playing a jedi knight guardian).

 

I dont think that macros can do any harm to swtor, and the arguments about 1 button playstyle seems not compeltly correct.

Exactly the opposite - u will be able to put few abilities in 1 macro, for example those abilities that build rage, but u will need to keep abilities that use different amount of rage separately.

This could reduce the keybidings usage slightly (u should agree here, some classes need to keybind so many abilities that are on short cooldown, that its getting frustrating sometimes), but not to 1 button only.

 

PS: I am talking from the JK player POV.

 

(sry for my English, non native speaker)

Edited February 10, 2012 by Vodamin

[EigerX]

Exactly, you have to know the class mechanics to make proper macros.

 

But even in Rift you had more to think about than just CD. Range was another factor, and wasn't there a mana like system? Don't remember for sure. And there were abilities that only worked in certain situations like if the target was below 25% health etc.

 

And also you make a good example of a complex key macro that makes you think before pressing it: If you put all your rage-building abilities on one key, you need to put some thought into it when you press that key.

 

Eiger

Edited February 10, 2012 by EigerX

[Rysa]

You can make it so your class can be played with fewer buttons (never just one of course, that's just people trying to make their point going to extremes). But usually when you choose to go this route, you lose a bit of control or limit yourself.

 

Not entirely true. You referenced Rift, where at least 1 class/spec, a single macro would give you the optimal rotation and highest damage output.

 

But even in Rift you had more to think about than just CD. Range was another factor, and wasn't there a mana like system? Don't remember for sure. And there were abilities that only worked in certain situations like if the target was below 25% health etc.

 

Again, not entirely true. The reason a lot of people dislike Rift's macro system is because you don't have to think about anything. Range is not a factor, macros are set up so if you are a melee class with some ranged abilities, if you are in range of your target, you use your melee ability, and if you aren't in melee range, hitting that same button will use your ranged attack. The same is true of the "target under 25% health" abilities. The way Rift's macro system is set up, if you list the abilities in the correct order, that ability will always fire off if it can. It takes all the decision making about which ability to use, out of the equation, and the macro decides it for you.

[xirinia]

Exactly, you have to know the class mechanics to make proper macros.

 

But even in Rift you had more to think about than just CD. Range was another factor, and wasn't there a mana like system? Don't remember for sure. And there were abilities that only worked in certain situations like if the target was below 25% health etc.

 

And also you make a good example of a complex key macro that makes you think before pressing it: If you put all your rage-building abilities on one key, you need to put some thought into it when you press that key.

 

Eiger

 

Actually that's a fairly poor example. Jedi knight mechanics makes them a perfect candidate for keyboard macros. I've tried with a sentinel, ended up with a single button that was executing about 8 abilities. Something like this, in priority order:

 

Relic

Reusable Adrenal

Resolute

Overload Saber

Riposte

Zen

Cauterize

Force Leap

Crippling Throw

Master Strike

Blade Storm

Zealous Strike

Strike

 

There. Save yourself 12 buttons. And that's why people don't like Rift style macros

[Gehoornde]

Macros have no cons, only pros.

[xirinia]

Just to clarify, I don't like this way of macroing. It does save buttons, but takes the fun out of the game.

 

I'd rather see macros that let you choose an ability based on state.

 

Something like this, for stealth classes:

 

if in combat, vanish

if stealthed, cast improved stealth

otherwise stealth.

 

Single button with one purpose, does not give you perfect (or at least passable) rotation

[EigerX]

Again, not entirely true. The reason a lot of people dislike Rift's macro system is because you don't have to think about anything. Range is not a factor, macros are set up so if you are a melee class with some ranged abilities, if you are in range of your target, you use your melee ability, and if you aren't in melee range, hitting that same button will use your ranged attack. The same is true of the "target under 25% health" abilities. The way Rift's macro system is set up, if you list the abilities in the correct order, that ability will always fire off if it can. It takes all the decision making about which ability to use, out of the equation, and the macro decides it for you.

 

But that's exactly what I mean. When I say Range IS a factor, I mean that when you press that button, range DOES affect what ability will be used. So what if your close range ability (listed first so it'll always go off if you're in range and it's available) is just a simple attack, and your longer ranged ability has a stun or slow or some other useful effect? You have to know this and take it into consideration both when creating the macro and when pressing the key.

 

If both of these above abilities are just normal attacks, AND the close range one does more damage-per-resource, AND it does more Damage-per-second, AND if it's ok if the ranged ability goes off when the melee one is on CD even if you're close THEN you can safely put it first and have a brain-free macro. This saves you from having to remember another key bind, watch a cooldown, and make a brainless decision 100 times a day. I think that's a good thing.

 

Basically, I want to make the meaningful decisions and leave the boring ones to the computer. That's why computers were invented in the first place. Otherwise, it seems too much like work and less like play. We need the game to give us enough meaningful decisions for it to be fun, so the class you mentioned in Rift that can be played with one button... well, that's a design flaw rather than a problem with the macro. I bet that class is boring to play with Macros or without.

 

If you always press key A when this icon is lit (not on CD) and key B when that other icon is NOT lit, then it's a twitch game, and not as interesting in my opinion. Nothing wrong with twitch games, but it's not what I'm here to play.

 

 

Cheers, Eiger

[DawnAskham]

Macros which allow things like better micro management of companions, the use of an ability on a focus target without losing my target, the use of an ability on a simple conditional or a modifier, or the ability to execute an ability on a mouse-over target make sense and are something I would like to see.

 

Macros like Rift that allow some classes to 'stack' 10 abilities or more onto one key such that the best ability is always used first is just stupid.

 

We need macros that will help clean up key binds and allow for a higher level of play. We don't need macros that play the game for us like Rift where some classes can simply spam #1 for single target, #2 for aoe target, #3 for finisher.

[EigerX]

Actually that's a fairly poor example. Jedi knight mechanics makes them a perfect candidate for keyboard macros. I've tried with a sentinel, ended up with a single button that was executing about 8 abilities. Something like this, in priority order:

 

Relic

Reusable Adrenal

Resolute

Overload Saber

Riposte

Zen

Cauterize

Force Leap

Crippling Throw

Master Strike

Blade Storm

Zealous Strike

Strike

 

There. Save yourself 12 buttons. And that's why people don't like Rift style macros

 

Well, I don't have a sentinel, and my marauder doesn't even have all the mirrored abilities, but I can still see that you could use your abilities better than that macro can.

 

What if you're attacking a normal enemy, before switching to an elite? The macro might use Crippling Throw just before the standard dies and you won't be able to use it on the elite. There are several other things that might be 'wasted' by being used too early, or waste an adrenal for an easy fight. And I'd be willing to bet that some of those later abilities would never get used.

 

But even if it works flawlessly, all that you're telling me is that all of those abilities have no trade offs: if it can be used, use it - because there is no situation where you'd have to make a tactical decision. That makes it a flawed class that could be played better by a robot sitting in your chair, and quickly pressing buttons in order.

 

Cheers, Eiger

[formulaic]

Rules of Conduct - B4 (link at bottom of the page).

 

You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate.

 

I don't know what that means, nor can I get a response on an opened ticket about it.

 

In related news - the 'official' SWTOR mouse and keyboard both proudly boast in their blurb that they have macro support (it seems a rather key component of the interesting keyboard-addon thingy).

 

[personally, I don't use hardware macros but it would be good to get a straight answer]

[Zhit]

You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate.

 

 

It is sad that you have to pay $100+ extra to get macros in TOR. You can read the TOS as any type of macroing is not allowed, and I would have thought the same thing. Except, I don't see BW banning anyone for buying a SWTOR branded keyboard and mouse--are you supposed to drop the $200 and use it another game? Because EA/BW are selling the keyboard as part of SWTOR--common sense would say you are allowed to use those devices to boost your game play.

 

The only thing I know--I can tell the other players that are using G13s and razers. PVP gets to be comical. All I have to do is worry about moving while I repeatedly press one of three buttons (depending on what the prey does)--and poof dead player.

 

I know the folks that don't have the keyboard/mouse will be griping that its unfair, blah, blah. But that is only because they die and I live. I'll take every advantage I'm allowed and maximize the effectiveness. The point of PVP is to dominate and I'm not willing to gimp myself to level the playing field when I know a better way exists.

[xirinia]

What if you're attacking a normal enemy, before switching to an elite? The macro might use Crippling Throw just before the standard dies and you won't be able to use it on the elite. There are several other things that might be 'wasted' by being used too early, or waste an adrenal for an easy fight. And I'd be willing to bet that some of those later abilities would never get used.

 

That's the point. The abilities are prioritized by their damage and usefulness. If the later abilities are not used, that's a good thing.

 

And adrenals have fairly short cooldown. Meaning that most of the time it will be used at the beginning of the fight.

 

But even if it works flawlessly, all that you're telling me is that all of those abilities have no trade offs: if it can be used, use it - because there is no situation where you'd have to make a tactical decision. That makes it a flawed class that could be played better by a robot sitting in your chair, and quickly pressing buttons in order.

 

And that exactly is my point. We need a macro system that would be more fun than this. True, a person with korean finger acrobatics abilities will probably play a little better than this macro would. But in most cases, this will perform much better than average player.

[xirinia]

It is sad that you have to pay $100+ extra to get macros in TOR. You can read the TOS as any type of macroing is not allowed, and I would have thought the same thing. Except, I don't see BW banning anyone for buying a SWTOR branded keyboard and mouse--are you supposed to drop the $200 and use it another game? Because EA/BW are selling the keyboard as part of SWTOR--common sense would say you are allowed to use those devices to boost your game play.

 

There are free software equivalents. Although they are (arguably) less legal than hardware macroing keyboards.

[Racheakt]

The Macro activity i want to see is to allow me to designate a friendly target for my spells.

 

Let me explain, I play a sage/sorc. As it stands now I must manually click on my tank companion to reapply bubble/heal then reclick on the mob i am fighting to dps again. If you have not noticed clicking on something and tab targeting is odd in this game and it does not always work.

 

I want to create a macro like "Cast heal @companion" that i can map so i can keep my DPS target and still heal my tank.

 

 

Edit: loved the rift macro system.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Racheakt

[WhoTookMyName]

I just want macro's for RP.

[sharkfinsix]

My Rift Jusiticar facerolled all PVE questing content with 2 buttons because almost every skill was put into 2macros.

 

run into middle of pack of mobs....press 2 buttons over and over while eating a burrito and watching GI Joe cartoons, rinse repeat.

 

Not every class could be stripped down to mindless, my Bard was far more challenging and rewarding, but even still...i had ranged and melee attacks macroed to 1 button so no matter what range the mob was at, my toon always used the proper weapon on it....just to bloody easy

 

In WoW I used to joke my hunter could top DPS charts on our raids with 1 1 1 1 3 4 1 1 1 3 4 1 1 1 7...i literally would watch movies and press a rotation and wait for DBM to tell me to move while we raided. And before you call that terribad, we cleared the content and i was always top 3 DPS...

 

 

^^ that's why a lot of people are against mods/macros.

 

I have a G13 and a G15..i have never programmed a macro to them, games are already way to easy now.

[Drebs]

I play a lvl 28 Jedi Guardian, and have found macros to be very helpful. I have the mouse wheel up/down bound to two different macros that I can constantly spam; one to build focus and one to spend focus.

 

The "build focus" macro naturally triggers my focus-generating abilities:

Combat Focus > Sundering Strike > Strike

 

The "spend focus" macro uses my high-damage, short-cooldown abilities:

Riposte > Blade Storm > Slash

 

All other abilities are on individual keys, as I find that they're all situational, but in a game where so many keybinds are necessary, I find it very helpful to macro what would otherwise be 6 keys to one mouse wheel.