Has Bioware already lost the PvP base?

[nophere]

Funny, ive ready everything available. It will be.. pretty much identical to GW1. Hope you love that Instanced WvWvW.

 

Good times.

 

This proves you have either not read a thing about the game or your reading comprehension is horrible.

[TheMieng]

The only game i see that will even come close to greatness for any pvper is Archeage. Even tho with close observation i notice you lvl just as fast there as you do in SWTOR which means people will be 50 in less than 30 days. The ability in pvp as open world and destroyable castles and ship battles not to mention the first game to introduce sea raids with epic creatures. The pvp system i see coming from it is what pvpers have been looking for. Gw2 looks to me as a fancey gimick like most pvp games have been a bunch of eye candy built on same systems as the past.

 

Archeage on the other hand is not instancing pvp and doing it open world which is how pvp should be. Alot of people will look at it and say it's crap but i have a feeling people from all walks of pvp will be surprised at the system.

 

Not to mention it will be the first mmo ever to allow a personal choice of a true class build and not a premaid class that has been set in stone with some skill tree.

 

A huge element of surprise from this system is because you want know if the person you fighting is half necro or ranger or a cleric seeing you have a choice of 3 picks in a system to combine you are able to choose for example mage necro tank, or necro cleric rougue, or even ranger cleric mage.

 

SWTOR would have been better if you for example had jedi that could pick from all the jedi tree skills the seperation of the skill trees to make pre made classes just have gotten old over the past 14 years of mmo development. Gamers have done it and by now are getting tired of the same old stuff just in a diffrent setting with a simi diffrent secne.

 

If i was going to make a mmo like sw or any other theme mmo this is how i would approach it for gamers. First i would make the pve servers and on these servers it's only pve. All pve servers would be tied to several pvp server worlds where in these server worlds there is nothing but pvp. In these pvp worlds there would be man able stuff placeable stuff like guns and traps. bases that have to be protected. Aion was off to a good start with the abyss except they made a shell and reall nothing more than a shell which in my case was not enough. but in these worlds you would have npc towns and cities that could be taken over and converted to your faction which would respawn your faction there just like the system did in aion when you took a fort.

 

I would remove all stupid crap like special pvp gear with dum stats like expertice. Pvp is all skill and when gear out rides skill then it no longer a pvp game. No i wouldn't make seperate zones for lvls. if you want to walk in a zone with lvl 50's at lvl 10 thats your stupidity. But this wouldn't stop a group of players say around lvl 40 from killing 3 lvl 50's in there gear. it would be like a group of 6 people taking on 3 champion mobs in swtor. Not impossible not to over powering but fair. No player is a god and unstopable. Like ive seen in battle zones in swtor where a group of 8 smacking on a guy in hutball and he just walks the ball stops at every fire trap and crosses them when it's safe all while 8 people are banging on him. Expertise makes a normal player basically a world boss specially if the other players fighting him have none. So having to have skill is out the window and to me this would be very boaring after a time.

 

No in my pvp server worlds that would be conected to pve worlds by a cross link would have to rely on a players skill with there abilities and not gear gear would be pve stat all the way and nothing more. I would offer alot more cosmetic in the game as well as a full custom character feature cusomization. Players like to look diffrent and none like to look like the other guy this is how most all gamers play pve or pvp. This limit every mmo keeps throwing out is a sour taste in our mouths.

 

The reason pvpers are so upset with swtor is well they have done wow and others like daoc for years and this one brought nothing new to the table in any way but a diffrent theme. I was not surprised at all to see this type of reaction. I don't have to be a fortune teller to see the out come.

 

But for my self i will be waiting another year or so for Archeage to release in America it is going global and will release this year in Korea and while we wait for a company here to be picked to translate it for us i will finish out my 3 months i subed cause i my self was hoping for a new SWG after the NGE crap. Yes I'm one of the million fools who jumped in paid and subed with out even looking at any video footage cause i was trusting the SW theme to bring me light or some crap like that.

 

When my sub ends i will go back to playing and moding on Minecraft till Archeage releases in America and hopefully ElGames can give me a ray of hope from what all the mmo companies have staryed from from the begining. All the youtube videos i've watched on it have all been ingame no animated show all ingame footage so i know it's not a simple thjis is what we are going to do cause it is there so i don't have to be scared that they said we will add this only to find out it never got added.

 

So i will try to have fun for my next few weeks of paid sub.

 

Look out Minecraft here i come.

Edited February 18, 2012 by TheMieng

[golfwang]

Well if anyone still have hopes for pvp, especially for open world pvp just listen to Q&A session with Gabe A. held 3 months ago:

 

http://torwars.com/2011/11/09/audio-gabe-amatangelo-discusses-ilum-and-open-world-pvp/

 

Oh dear, on Ilum subject he's so detached from reality it's unbelievable. Basically he believes that 100 vs 20 on Ilum will still be a great enjoyable game. When BW's lead designer on pvp says such things, I'm completely loosing all hope.

 

oh wow...i can't believe it.

[golfwang]

I would say that the majority of the subscriber base is casual. The problems in the end-game are most complained about by the speed levelers, self proclaimed professional pvpers who came from other games that didn't make their pvp cut, and those who power leveled and didn't experience any other content other than that which made their character more powerful?

 

There is plenty to do in this game, on multiple characters, unless you play non-stop. Yes the PvP could use a facelift, and perhaps BW could copy some successful "pvp" formulas from other MMO's. I think they underestimated the players who would focus solely on pvp at end game, and the skill of some of the better guilds and players coming from other MMO's.

 

The players complaining here, complained in the other forums of those other games too, for sure.

 

This design team seems genuinely interested in satisfying the subscriber base, and the "expert" input from the more experienced MMO veterans could go a long way in helping develop this game for the long run.

 

i think this game has been successful at avoiding the hacks, addressing certain emergency fixes in game, addressing class balancing, fixing content and much more. The response has been faster than any MMO I can remember in recent years, and I've played since MMOs since the UO launch.

 

Remember this is a community, and your efforts can help build or help destroy that community. I'd wager that those complaining most, helped destroy "other" online communities as well, instead of helping to build them.

 

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but: I did not powerlevel to 50. I experienced every single cutscene on my sin and sent. I hit 50 about two and a half weeks after early access (maybe three).

 

Not everyone wants to level multiple alts which only really have about 15% unique leveling content anyway. What pvper in their right mind is going to level every class for the story? I'm sure as hell not and I shouldn't have to do that to "make-up" for the lack of polish and end-game. Nevermind the fact that if pvp is genuinely compelling and fluid, people would play it whether or not the content was there.

 

If you primarily (or only) pvp, there's a grind to valor rank 60 (for nothing tbh). Then the game takes a nosedive.

 

There is a massive difference between complaining and offering valid, constructive criticism. I suggest you read my original post if the difference still escapes you.

 

This game is actually being hacked non-stop: speed hackers, bg over queue bugging are sabotaging the experience for a ton of people and the problems have still gone unchecked.

 

I think clueless people like you, who attempt to silence discussion and ways games could be improved are far more detrimental to the state of the games than people like me. You've offered nothing but homer-ism to this discussion.

 

I suggest you take off your rose colored glasses.

[Nyghoma]

All the top pvpers from beta left the top pvp server and cancelled their subs. You tell me.

[Lectro]

This was never meant to be, or was it advertized as a PVP based game.

 

I think I remember 'Story Driven MMO' somewhere..

[Rogmar]

All the top pvpers from beta left the top pvp server and cancelled their subs. You tell me.

 

rofl this scrub is still calling his server the "top pvp server".

Edited February 18, 2012 by Rogmar

[Nyghoma]

rofl this scrub is still calling his server the "top pvp server".

 

I betcha I can wipe the floor with you in any game I play. You'd be my personal pinata.

 

Watch who you call a scrub, boy.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Nyghoma

[golfwang]

This was never meant to be, or was it advertized as a PVP based game.

 

I think I remember 'Story Driven MMO' somewhere..

 

It was advertised as both, the story driven MMO part was just more hyped/expensive.

 

Take a quick listen to this:

http://torwars.com/2011/11/09/audio-gabe-amatangelo-discusses-ilum-and-open-world-pvp/

 

Gabe even mentions ToR as an e-sport in this podcast. I'll never play a game with Gabe's name attached to it again, both experiences have been incredibly underwhelming and frustrating.

[RodneyMmKay]

This was never meant to be, or was it advertized as a PVP based game.

 

I think I remember 'Story Driven MMO' somewhere..

 

I don't think BW wanted to leave any market untouched, they always mentioned that pvp was something they were taking seriously.

 

I have to agree with some of what the OP says, I am a bit worried about PvP in this game. I'll play out the long haul but at the moment. It's nothing in itself that would keep me consistently playing one of (the many) toons I have as a main.

 

Alt running really seems to be end game in this mmo. It's where they put all their money apparently.

[Nyghoma]

This was never meant to be, or was it advertized as a PVP based game.

 

I think I remember 'Story Driven MMO' somewhere..

 

Yeah, that's BS.

 

Most of BW's videos and live demos pre-launch were focused around pvp. And I recall multiple interviews close to launch with their team featuring pvp as the hot topic.

[Seanhazz]

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but: I did not powerlevel to 50. I experienced every single cutscene on my sin and sent. I hit 50 about two and a half weeks after early access (maybe three).

 

Not everyone wants to level multiple alts which only really have about 15% unique leveling content anyway. What pvper in their right mind is going to level every class for the story? I'm sure as hell not and I shouldn't have to do that to "make-up" for the lack of polish and end-game. Nevermind the fact that if pvp is genuinely compelling and fluid, people would play it whether or not the content was there.

 

If you primarily (or only) pvp, there's a grind to valor rank 60 (for nothing tbh). Then the game takes a nosedive.

 

There is a massive difference between complaining and offering valid, constructive criticism. I suggest you read my original post if the difference still escapes you.

 

This game is actually being hacked non-stop: speed hackers, bg over queue bugging are sabotaging the experience for a ton of people and the problems have still gone unchecked.

 

I think clueless people like you, who attempt to silence discussion and ways games could be improved are far more detrimental to the state of the games than people like me. You've offered nothing but homer-ism to this discussion.

 

I suggest you take off your rose colored glasses.

 

Funny thing, I expressed an opinion, and your feelings got hurt because i don't agree.

 

Delusion? perhaps in that i know and realize that the community won't help to strengthen the game and be constructive, yet i'm still a hopeful Star Wars fan that they will turn it around and be patient, and not act like self-entitled brats.

 

Denial is what describes you and your playing habits. The fact remains you DID power level, just type "/played" and see how much time you've spent on your character since "early Access", because of course you had to have the head start in front of the masses.

 

To suggest that you and those who believe the same as you do constitute the BASE of PVP subscribers is also delusion.

 

-TOR launched during a holiday season, when the kiddies could play non-stop all day with their new gifts. Of course the servers were packed.

 

-Your precious WOW launched with NO BGs, and when they introduced them, they stayed broken and hacked for a very long time. When they introduced Arena, they said FU to all those who had to grind to the top in Vanilla by giving the gear away to close the gap.

 

Maybe Ranked WZs

Maybe another tier of gear.

Maybe a better gearing system.

Maybe a less crappy Ilum

 

THATS getting closer to being a productive community member than you intended, and it echos the sentiments of many across all servers.

 

YOU described the PVPers as a niche crowd. If you are correct, then who in their right mind would build a game for a niche crowd when many more were drawn by the KOTOR game model which featured a deep storytelling.

 

Your PvP changes will come, just not when you demand them to or just because you and your fellow niches ransom your subscriptions over it. they have already mapped out a plan for content releases and changes and your rant won't deter them.

 

After LEGACY is introduced and debugged, you'll most likely see your changes to pvp. Again, only MY opinion and observation.

[Scrag_]

I didn't read your entire thread but I'm sure it's a long roundabout way to bash this game while asking your question.

 

 

The answer is no. There are many active PVPers and my server is constantly popping in Ilum and warzones on both factions.

 

 

 

 

What you see(my guess is you included) is the whiners. The crybabies that didn't get the game they imagined so they run to the forums to cry to try and dissuade the people that do like it from playing out of some bitter feeling of letdown of their imagination of the "perfect pvp game"

 

The game is bad. I could list why but I dont want to write a book. A Rift guildie of mine put it best - "SWTOR is the best single player MMO ive ever played."

Edited February 18, 2012 by Scrag_

[golfwang]

Funny thing, I expressed an opinion, and your feelings got hurt because i don't agree.

 

Delusion? perhaps in that i know and realize that the community won't help to strengthen the game and be constructive, yet i'm still a hopeful Star Wars fan that they will turn it around and be patient, and not act like self-entitled brats.

 

Denial is what describes you and your playing habits. The fact remains you DID power level, just type "/played" and see how much time you've spent on your character since "early Access", because of course you had to have the head start in front of the masses.

 

To suggest that you and those who believe the same as you do constitute the BASE of PVP subscribers is also delusion.

 

-TOR launched during a holiday season, when the kiddies could play non-stop all day with their new gifts. Of course the servers were packed.

 

-Your precious WOW launched with NO BGs, and when they introduced them, they stayed broken and hacked for a very long time. When they introduced Arena, they said FU to all those who had to grind to the top in Vanilla by giving the gear away to close the gap.

 

 

 

THATS getting closer to being a productive community member than you intended, and it echos the sentiments of many across all servers.

 

YOU described the PVPers as a niche crowd. If you are correct, then who in their right mind would build a game for a niche crowd when many more were drawn by the KOTOR game model which featured a deep storytelling.

 

Your PvP changes will come, just not when you demand them to or just because you and your fellow niches ransom your subscriptions over it. they have already mapped out a plan for content releases and changes and your rant won't deter them.

 

After LEGACY is introduced and debugged, you'll most likely see your changes to pvp. Again, only MY opinion and observation.

 

What are you even talking about? I didn't feel anything responding to you..

 

I've offered plenty of constructive criticism, especially in my original post. I don't understand how you can possibly make that claim. What you are is a homer, and you don't even bother hiding it. That's whats going to hold this game back, people like you just satisfied with the IP.

 

There were people at cap within a few days so two-three weeks is nothing, especially when you level through pvp. That I got EA is irrelevant. We're approaching the third month, I've just as much right to be frustrated with the state of pvp in this game at cap as any new 50.

 

It's simply inexcusable and reeks of incompetence.

 

You're clearly not comprehending anything I've posted. The "pvp base" is simply people who primarily pvp at cap. If pvp is what you play an MMO for, you're part of that base. That's it. In fact I've conceded numerous times that it's possible to be a part of the pvp base and disagree with me. If you were capable of some level of cognitive dissonance or basic reading comprehension you'd understand that.

 

I'm a full time college student with a part time job, I didn't have all day and then some to play.

 

Bro, what WoW launched with means nothing. That was in 2004. It's 2012 now, standards are simply different. ToR is still in beta as far as I'm concerned and it's never ok to release that way.

 

Its painfully obvious you didn't read most of what I've written and quite frankly, embarrassing.

Edited February 19, 2012 by golfwang

[nophere]

All the top pvpers from beta left the top pvp server and cancelled their subs. You tell me.

 

Top PVP players and top PVP server? How is someone ranked a top pvper or top pvp server? I cant wait to hear this 1.

[golfwang]

Top PVP players and top PVP server? How is someone ranked a top pvper or top pvp server? I cant wait to hear this 1.

 

tisch #1

[Tetrablade]

They had what, 5-6 YEARS of development. Would you be happy if you bought a 2 month old car and it didnt run right? All those years and this is all they came up with? Add all the beta time into the 2 month equation as well. Been a helluva lot longer than 2 monthes. I think they are losing the pvp base because face it-its just not a pvp game. I'm sure they'd love to have the pvp base but they have not shown nor earned it. Thats fine. Its a great pve game and tons of people will play and love this game for years to come, just not pvp'ers. Only thing I am angry about is a pve game billed as pvp and another 75 (60 preorder+15 1st month sub) down the drain. Same thing happened with rift. They said pvp would be a big part of the game but once it went live it was just another raiding pve game.

 

Ok fun fact and quick google search. Mass effect 1 took 2 years to make. Big deal right? Look at, realitivly, how small the game is. Only 3 core classes and a few hybrids, same storyline, no multiplayer so no need to worry about balance to much, and the engine used only had to be tweaked a bit from its previous incarnations.

 

Compare to SWTOR. 4 main classes, 8 advanced classes, 16 classes worth of unique animations, 8 different storyline with voice-overs (that need to be accessed real time and synced over the net), untested engine, multiplayer balancing trying to account for anything and everything a player might try, trying to design and keep interest of players that will no doubt burn through content within the first month, and the list goes on.

 

Point is, 6 years has been a standard development time for mmos, but taking into consideration the added scope and complexities that Bioware is trying to put in and yes I become a bit impressed. Pvp was stated to not be a main focus at the start, and they underestimated a bit. But if you actually look at what the devs are saying you can see that they are trying hard to remedy it.

 

TL;DR They are putting the near future focus on their pvp content and underestimated the scope of their current pvp player base. Give them a break they are programmers not wizards.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Sejia
insult

[Rogmar]

I betcha I can wipe the floor with you in any game I play. You'd be my personal pinata.

 

Watch who you call a scrub, boy.

 

You were terrible in LOTRO, and by class alone I could win any fight against you.

 

Not the point though, still hilarious that you think that your server is #1 in anything without ANY form of metrics being available. At one point, the game hadn't even released yet and you still talked the same trash.

[GavNash]

PvP dev team allows ridiculous imbalances between classes. (some tank builds that are impossible to kill, some healing builds that are impossible to kill, insane burst damage for one class for a month)

 

Then, instead of fixing these issues at the class level PvP dev team nerfs their entire DPS system without even providing a combat log, against the protests of PTR players. Which directly causes tank classes to be the new Freak of the Month.

 

Meanwhile, they ignore that the game is all about spamming heals with no skill, and CC hell.

 

There aren't many PvP guilds left on my RPPvP server. I've now been in two PvP guilds of each over 30 people that have disbanded as their members left en mass for other MMOs. My friends list is over 50+ of hardcore PvPers and I rarely see more than 5 on it at the same time.

 

As for myself, and I consider myself a very hardcore PvPer. I've got one day left on a sub I've canceled.

 

I think it is safe to say that hardcore PvPers haven't just jumped ship, they've fired their rocket ejection packs away from it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by GavNash

[finetop]

As they should. I am recommending pvp players not buy this game until things get sorted out. Better luck elsewhere.

[KrustyDog]

BUMPITTY BUMP. Bio seems to be closing other threads talking about game mechanics and using this one as a reason to close those threads so I thought I'd bump this one. As for this threads topic? Cant lose whats gone. My servers population is down a good 50%. Less than 40 in fleet at prime time last night (down from well over 100)and I'm betting it wasnt pve'rs quitting that caused the population drop. Soon there will be one less cause my sub runs out pretty quick. As for Bio-you guys just never listen/learn do you? You had Rift and Aion go down the crapper and you didnt look at those games to see why? Cause the pvp'ers left for all the exact reasons they are leaving your game plus some. To their credit they might have had bots and that was annoying but they NEVER had the level of exploits and hacking that you do.

[golfwang]

BUMPITTY BUMP. Bio seems to be closing other threads talking about game mechanics and using this one as a reason to close those threads so I thought I'd bump this one. As for this threads topic? Cant lose whats gone. My servers population is down a good 50%. Less than 40 in fleet at prime time last night (down from well over 100)and I'm betting it wasnt pve'rs quitting that caused the population drop. Soon there will be one less cause my sub runs out pretty quick. As for Bio-you guys just never listen/learn do you? You had Rift and Aion go down the crapper and you didnt look at those games to see why? Cause the pvp'ers left for all the exact reasons they are leaving your game plus some. To their credit they might have had bots and that was annoying but they NEVER had the level of exploits and hacking that you do.

 

I don't think a lot of the pve homers who openly hate/are casual about pvp fully understand this: Think servers feel dead now? What until SWTOR has actual competition (GW2, TERA, etc...) and what little remaining of the pvp base leaves. The whole "It's just been a few months!" argument is pretty foolish in light of this. I don't think most people are going to be so forgiving (pvp-wise).

 

Like one of my guildies said: "First impressions matter." and ToR has made a very poor one on the pvp base as far as I'm concerned. That alone is enough for people to leave and never come back but I'm hoping the March patch is awesome for us and BW is able to get it together before competitors start releasing. ToR is not a game I want to see fail, as disappointed as I am right now.

 

It's clearly not possible to avoid server mergers at this point and that's a shame.

 

I'm disappointed BW ended up making a lot of the mistakes previous WoW clones made. I know it's their first MMO but there's no shortage of failed releases from the past few years to learn from. I didn't want ToR to fall by the wayside like those other MMOs did for the pvp base because the IP is awesome.

 

Anyone have any idea when BW announces the amount of subs ToR has? Just interested.

Edited February 19, 2012 by golfwang

[savionen]

Ok fun fact and quick google search. Mass effect 1 took 2 years to make. Big deal right? Look at, realitivly, how small the game is. Only 3 core classes and a few hybrids, same storyline, no multiplayer so no need to worry about balance to much, and the engine used only had to be tweaked a bit from its previous incarnations.

 

Compare to SWTOR. 4 main classes, 8 advanced classes, 16 classes worth of unique animations, 8 different storyline with voice-overs (that need to be accessed real time and synced over the net), untested engine, multiplayer balancing trying to account for anything and everything a player might try, trying to design and keep interest of players that will no doubt burn through content within the first month, and the list goes on.

 

Point is, 6 years has been a standard development time for mmos, but taking into consideration the added scope and complexities that Bioware is trying to put in and yes I become a bit impressed. Pvp was stated to not be a main focus at the start, and they underestimated a bit. But if you actually look at what the devs are saying you can see that they are trying hard to remedy it.

 

TL;DR They are putting the near future focus on their pvp content and underestimated the scope of their current pvp player base. Give them a break they are programmers not wizards.

 

6 years is not average, nor did it take Bioware 6 years.

Mass Effect 2 had better graphics but SWTOR runs worse.

Even if PvP was not their entire focus, they still said Ilum would be groundbreaking and that SWTOR would have unique PvP. Neither of those statements are true.

 

In general you clearly know nothing about game development.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Sejia
reply to insult

[Tetrablade]

6 years is not average, nor did it take Bioware 6 years.

Mass Effect 2 had better graphics but SWTOR runs worse.

Even if PvP was not their entire focus, they still said Ilum would be groundbreaking and that SWTOR would have unique PvP. Neither of those statements are true.

 

In general you clearly know nothing about game development.

 

Point to any mmo that did not take 5-6 years to develop.

 

Ilum has been groundbreaking, whether that is a positive statement or not is personal opinion.

 

Again, unique is a personal opinion, I haven't seen many bounty hunter players in other games nor have I seen a cover system.

 

Oh and mass effect 2 was based on another engine again, most of the stuff had already been made or coded, story had been written, and they had more money this time. So yeah it had better graphics, but to be honest even if it looked the same as ME1 I still would have played it. Not everyone is shallow about the looks of a game. Also keep in mind that again it is a pretty focused game that is meant to be enjoyed for maybe 20 hours a run not SWTOR's 300 some hours. Makes a tiny bit if difference.

 

So in general yes I know some things about game development. Not an expert and probably won't ever claim to be but google and simple logic goes a long way.

[golfwang]

Point to any mmo that did not take 5-6 years to develop.

 

Ilum has been groundbreaking, whether that is a positive statement or not is personal opinion.

 

Again, unique is a personal opinion, I haven't seen many bounty hunter players in other games nor have I seen a cover system.

 

Oh and mass effect 2 was based on another engine again, most of the stuff had already been made or coded, story had been written, and they had more money this time. So yeah it had better graphics, but to be honest even if it looked the same as ME1 I still would have played it. Not everyone is shallow about the looks of a game. Also keep in mind that again it is a pretty focused game that is meant to be enjoyed for maybe 20 hours a run not SWTOR's 300 some hours. Makes a tiny bit if difference.

 

So in general yes I know some things about game development. Not an expert and probably won't ever claim to be but google and simple logic goes a long way.

 

How has Ilum been groundbreaking? Where in it's design is it innovative or even successful?

 

Bounty Hunters were in Galaxies and cover was first in Tabula Rasa.

 

I don't care about game graphics, I'd rather have an awesome game engine anchoring the entire experience. ToR doesn't have that and at the end of the day it's a huge indictment of the developers.

 

You clearly know nothing..