Has Bioware already lost the PvP base?

[unicornfive]

a normal day of pvping swtor :

1) get pvp dailies

2) go ilum and fall asleep while trying to get all 30 armaments along other 10+ ppl

3) join wz to get chain knockbacked in **** huttball that for some weird reason its still in the game and hasent been removed

4) rage even more with bioware's sense of class balance in game (decided to roll jugg for wz cause i thought since he has tanking spec, he ll have some good defense while playing pvp as dps....but that was the oposite...marauders got 7 defensive cds+spells while jugg has only 2 as dps speced.... and dont mention the heavy armor.. cause this is the most ridiculus thing here....heavy vs medium armor, is only 5% dmg reduction difference...

5) finally u get to open the bags, only to realise that this marvelous RNG system is working as intented and u dont get crap BM commendations out of bags for days, while ur friend got his BM set for his companion allready.

6) logs out to do something more interesting than this, regreting wasting money for a 2 month subscription..

[carliiiiito]

just wanted to say ,if the nge didnt kill swg ,i highly doubt swtor will die cuz of a few MINOR pvp change

[lethal_ghost]

I wouldn't get too worked up about it. For one, it's NCSoft. Let's recap some recent NCSoft-published MMO titles, shall we? Aion. Dead in 3 months. Tabula Rasa, dead in 2 months, shut down in 13. Yeah, I know, it's Arena. Net developing. But it's NCSoft publishing. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

 

As for Bioware losing the PvP player base, I don't think it had much of one to begin with. The game is designed specifically to minimize PvP. Take WoW - you go to Tanaris, there's one quest hub. Exact same thing could have been done on, say, Voss, which is neutral. That neutral faction would send players to exact same spots for exact same quests. Result? World PvP. In SWTOR, the game is designed to keep Pubs and Imps as far away from eachother as possible. It is specifically made this way to avoid world PvP as much as humanly possible. In WoW, it was possible to attack the outposts. A few high level chars could come to Crossroads or Astranaar and wreck the place. In SWTOR, you have tons of champion guards and turrets, no go. Etc., etc.

 

This game isn't about PvP. Was never about PvP, and likely will never be about PvP. First major expansion, Rise of the Rakghouls? Was that a PvE or PvP expansion? PvE, of course. That's your answer. So far, I'm not really impressed by their "best PvP developer team in the world".

 

It was about PvP as well, BW was bragging about how they had some of the worlds best PvP devs in a dedicated team just for PvP. Why do this if they didn't really want pvp, i know it seems like they dont but they hyped it as if they did.

[Tzou]

u cant expect competitive pvp with hello kitty online players QQing all day and night at forums.

 

u cant expect competitive pvp with pve guilds saying their oppinion about games progress.

 

 

u cant expect competitive pvp when ppl wants their toons to own everyobdy else ..

 

 

and ofc u cant expect competitve pvp when a company listens alot the casual players that roams all day and night at forums.they have zero understanding of end pvp game and they copy eachother words.

 

imo close the forums and do your OWN game bioware and EA,the way U want it and the only thing u must do coreect is ,hire some PPL to test pvp balance among the classes,test the new patches, and see what ppl likes or not by having your employess ONLINE and observing.

 

u dont have to have a master in rocket science to get all this.too much democracy is not an option for a good mmo.cause majority of ppl that sais their oppinion in ALL games are a bunch of whiners that wants easy mode games ,cause they dont have the timeor the skills to compete.

 

i would be more happy if i played a game i ALREADY knew what to expect than a game that wil lbe developed by casuals-whiners-and skilless ppl.

 

if im skilled or not its another issue(i think im a normal one) but at least i dont want a nuclear bomb at my skill bar to kill others.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Tzou

[lethal_ghost]

a normal day of pvping swtor :

1) get pvp dailies

2) go ilum and fall asleep while trying to get all 30 armaments along other 10+ ppl

3) join wz to get chain knockbacked in **** huttball that for some weird reason its still in the game and hasent been removed

4) rage even more with bioware's sense of class balance in game (decided to roll jugg for wz cause i thought since he has tanking spec, he ll have some good defense while playing pvp as dps....but that was the oposite...marauders got 7 defensive cds+spells while jugg has only 2 as dps speced.... and dont mention the heavy armor.. cause this is the most ridiculus thing here....heavy vs medium armor, is only 5% dmg reduction difference...

5) finally u get to open the bags, only to realise that this marvelous RNG system is working as intented and u dont get crap BM commendations out of bags for days, while ur friend got his BM set for his companion allready.

6) logs out to do something more interesting than this, regreting wasting money for a 2 month subscription..

 

This is true, PvE is all tank and spank, i at least thought some end game PvE would keep me interested till PvP gets sorted (if it does)

[golfwang]

I wouldn't get too worked up about it. For one, it's NCSoft. Let's recap some recent NCSoft-published MMO titles, shall we? Aion. Dead in 3 months. Tabula Rasa, dead in 2 months, shut down in 13. Yeah, I know, it's Arena. Net developing. But it's NCSoft publishing. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

 

As for Bioware losing the PvP player base, I don't think it had much of one to begin with. The game is designed specifically to minimize PvP. Take WoW - you go to Tanaris, there's one quest hub. Exact same thing could have been done on, say, Voss, which is neutral. That neutral faction would send players to exact same spots for exact same quests. Result? World PvP. In SWTOR, the game is designed to keep Pubs and Imps as far away from eachother as possible. It is specifically made this way to avoid world PvP as much as humanly possible. In WoW, it was possible to attack the outposts. A few high level chars could come to Crossroads or Astranaar and wreck the place. In SWTOR, you have tons of champion guards and turrets, no go. Etc., etc.

 

This game isn't about PvP. Was never about PvP, and likely will never be about PvP. First major expansion, Rise of the Rakghouls? Was that a PvE or PvP expansion? PvE, of course. That's your answer. So far, I'm not really impressed by their "best PvP developer team in the world".

 

Do you know the difference between publishing and developing? ANET is developing GW2, not NCSoft

 

Yea, I've pointed this out quite a few times in this thread: Players of the opposite faction are kept apart by design.

 

Bioware touted themselves pretty highly as one of the best pvp teams in the genre (with the Mythic guys)...so on the one hand, yea I should've seen a pve centric game coming.

 

On the other hand, dammit I believed them

Edited February 11, 2012 by golfwang

[Tzou]

Do you know the difference between publishing and developing? ANET is developing GW2, not NCSoft

 

and ncsoft will come and buy it after some time as usual.

[golfwang]

and ncsoft will come and buy it after some time as usual.

 

You're being incredibly presumptuous. I don't think there's every been a AAA MMO like GW2 before, who knows what's going to happen.

[Tzou]

You're being incredibly presumptuous. I don't think there's every been a AAA MMO like GW2 before, who knows what's going to happen.

 

im just tired of w8ing THE mmo that will change the mmos history.i dont think ncsoft will ever do it cause ncsoft loves RP too much.tons of character creation choices.tons of good graphics and zero understanding of pvp.gw1 was ok but still u were only spamming skils without mooving.

 

in theory it was good.but i dont think ncsoft will even understand how pvp must be.

 

on the other hand ull tell me:did others do?

 

well no.some good pvp games came and gone cause they couldnt afford to keep their games online after a while.

 

also dont forget (if u played ncsofts games) that this company has the WORST support ever.

 

in any case ofc ill try GW2 cause GW1 was good enough.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Tzou

[unicornfive]

u cant expect competitive pvp with hello kitty online players qqing all day and night at forums.

you are right....no reason to qq...this game is perfect and it has more subscribers than wow.

 

u cant expect competitive pvp with pve guilds saying their oppinion about games progress.

what does exactly a hardcore competitive pvp player does more in this game than a pver? Buffs faster the zerg on ilum that camps the enemy base? Or helps with the 8 vs 11 match ups in wzs that end prematurely?

 

 

u cant expect competitive pvp when ppl wants their toons to own everyobdy else ..

you can expect competitive pvp when ppl nuke u with their ranged char 2 ramps higher in huttball, no matter how good or crap player u are and u being unable to react.

 

you cant expect competitive pvp in a broken pvp system like this....the pvp system fails from the top till the bottom of it....from something important like class balance, ranged vs melee balance...till the less pvp interactive..which is the pvp reward thing

- - - - -

Edited February 11, 2012 by unicornfive

[golfwang]

im just tired of w8ing THE mmo that will change the mmos history.i dont think ncsoft will ever do it cause ncsoft loves RP too much.tons of character creation choices.tons of good graphics and zero understanding of pvp.gw1 was ok but still u were only spamming skils without mooving.

 

in theory it was good.but i dont think ncsoft will even understand how pvp must be.

 

on the other hand ull tell me:did others do?

 

well no.some good pvp games came and gone cause they couldnt afford to keep their games online after a while.

 

also dont forget (if u played ncsofts games) that this company has the WORST support ever.

 

in any case ofc ill try GW2 cause GW1 was good enough.

 

You know ANET is behind Guild Wars...right? Do you even know what they're planing for 2? If you did I don't think you'd be making any of the presumptions you are now. You sir, are misinformed.

 

And I've never framed any of the MMOs I've referenced in this thread as "MMOs that will change history..." or even good. It's always been within the context of competition for ToR...and with the state this game is in right now I'm not sure how ready it is to handle a WoW expansion, GW2 and TERA.

Edited February 11, 2012 by golfwang

[Spartanik]

3) join wz to get chain knockbacked in **** huttball that for some weird reason its still in the game and hasent been removed

this is ridiculous huttball is the best thing in warzones. the most fun warzone they made. If you cant play it because someone is kicking you *** from above then.. well to bad its pvp it happens it is actualy what makes it fun. Dont cry, plz, from your posts i can see you want all easy. well i for once i want something that is harder, but fun at same time.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Spartanik

[Vincedaddy]

I didn't read your entire thread but I'm sure it's a long roundabout way to bash this game while asking your question.

 

 

The answer is no. There are many active PVPers and my server is constantly popping in Ilum and warzones on both factions.

 

 

 

 

What you see(my guess is you included) is the whiners. The crybabies that didn't get the game they imagined so they run to the forums to cry to try and dissuade the people that do like it from playing out of some bitter feeling of letdown of their imagination of the "perfect pvp game"

 

He wasn't bashing the game you durp L2Read

[Mountainrock]

I love PvP, it was the main reason for buying this game. I do not like the repetitive nature of PvE.

 

I believe that the people that brought the game for the PvP aspect will lose interest very soon, if not already.

 

The name of the game, 'Star Wars,' is that not indicative name of a PvP game? PvP should have had as much attention to it as PvE. 3 WZs was not enough at the start. The RNG for PvP gear is going backwards not forwards in terms of MMOs.

 

Though it is PvE players that pay the bills for MMOs. A lot of PvE players do not like PvP or they do not have the skill required to be good at the PvP aspect. That is fine, PvP is not for everyone. Just like PvE is not for everyone.

 

If the developers believe that the PvP is fine, then this game is not for PvPers. I can accept that and move on to another MMO that PvP where PvP is more prominent (GW2?).

[golfwang]

I love PvP, it was the main reason for buying this game. I do not like the repetitive nature of PvE.

 

I believe that the people that brought the game for the PvP aspect will lose interest very soon, if not already.

 

The name of the game, 'Star Wars,' is that not indicative name of a PvP game? PvP should have had as much attention to it as PvE. 3 WZs was not enough at the start. The RNG for PvP gear is going backwards not forwards in terms of MMOs.

 

Though it is PvE players that pay the bills for MMOs. A lot of PvE players do not like PvP or they do not have the skill required to be good at the PvP aspect. That is fine, PvP is not for everyone. Just like PvE is not for everyone.

 

If the developers believe that the PvP is fine, then this game is not for PvPers. I can accept that and move on to another MMO that PvP where PvP is more prominent (GW2?).

 

I think for a lot of players the March patch is Bioware's last chance to restore some faith in ToR pvp. If it disappoints, then yes, GW2.

[HileyQuiggley]

If they dont fix things by March Ill just go back to DAoC. No big deal for me, did it with WAR, did it with AoC. Next will be GW2 I guess.

[unicornfive]

this is ridiculous huttball is the best thing in warzones. the most fun warzone they made. If you cant play it because someone is kicking you *** from above then.. well to bad its pvp it happens it is actualy what makes it fun. Dont cry, plz, from your posts i can see you want all easy. well i for once i want something that is harder, but fun at same time.

 

What more easier than a noob ranged spaming his 1 button and killing ppl that cant reach him to attack him.....

 

I bet u play 1 of these easy mod mercs or sorcs, and ur only chance to kill someone, is to knockhim back and attack him while he cant reach u..

[ErnieVega]

the better question is... does it matter? Im sorry but people who only play one aspect of an MMO and complain that it is not perfect are just babies. The game has many aspects to balance, and PvP has been getting a lot more attention than any other aspect of this game. If that fact causes people to rage quit because they didnt get what they wanted right now, then let them leave.

[otterscrubber]

To the OP: You should go get $150M in funding, start your own company and show Bioware how to do it right. You really seem to have a solid grasp on all the details.

 

I love how you basically start this thread with "If you disagree with me in any way, then this thread is not for you." LOL. You seem to forget that the developers do not have that option, they must try to appease everyone. Which is next to impossible with folks who dedicate 40+ hours/week to a game, power grind to the cap, then whine there is no content for them. Get over it, this game is vastly superior to 98% of all the crap out there. In fact, the starship missions alone are better than 90%+ of all the actual games released for Playstation in the last 10 years.

 

If you are at the cap, then you are at the cap. This is a new game, you don't build a brand new game with the focus on endless end game content. That is the reality of the situation. It will change for the better sooner rather than later. Try have 2 ounces of patience.

[golfwang]

the better question is... does it matter? Im sorry but people who only play one aspect of an MMO and complain that it is not perfect are just babies. The game has many aspects to balance, and PvP has been getting a lot more attention than any other aspect of this game. If that fact causes people to rage quit because they didnt get what they wanted right now, then let them leave.

 

I'm not upset that it's not perfect, I'm upset that it blatantly copies from WoW yet does everything poorly (besides class balance).

[Forsbacka]

I'm not upset that it's not perfect, I'm upset that it blatantly copies from WoW yet does everything poorly (besides class balance).

 

Maybe they should have used 20 mill for the game and copy DaoC.

[golfwang]

To the OP: You should go get $150M in funding, start your own company and show Bioware how to do it right. You really seem to have a solid grasp on all the details.

 

I love how you basically start this thread with "If you disagree with me in any way, then this thread is not for you." LOL. You seem to forget that the developers do not have that option, they must try to appease everyone. Which is next to impossible with folks who dedicate 40+ hours/week to a game, power grind to the cap, then whine there is no content for them. Get over it, this game is vastly superior to 98% of all the crap out there. In fact, the starship missions alone are better than 90%+ of all the actual games released for Playstation in the last 10 years.

 

If you are at the cap, then you are at the cap. This is a new game, you don't build a brand new game with the focus on endless end game content. That is the reality of the situation. It will change for the better sooner rather than later. Try have 2 ounces of patience.

 

I believe the budget was $200M and it's obvious the vast majority of that went into leveling content. Even pve endgame is suffering because of how much money they threw at voice over work. It's really a matter of development time and money...

 

Those statements basically mean: If you don't play this game primarily for pvp, then you probably aren't a member of the pvp base, thus this thread doesn't really concern you. You're free to disagree but still primarily pvp but I made those statements in an attempt to open dialogue with my intended audience and deter trolling.

 

I didn't power grind to cap so w/e. On what grounds is this game vastly superior? Because if you're willing to throw phrases like that around but sit on your butt in silence instead of arguing them, you're a troll and wasting space in this discussion.

 

You're probably not a hardcore gamer in general if you put the Spaceship minigames above most fully fleshed out console/PC games.

 

Can you attack any of the other facets of my argument besides content? I don't think so.

 

edit: I deleted the first statement in my OP because you're right, it was overly exclusive.

Edited February 11, 2012 by golfwang

[QiBao]

Spot on analysis is subjective, since 90% of the people complaining right now are the ones either upset their class was nerfed, upset that they can't be a derp and just stand and attack things and hate anything that might encourage tactical strategy, or the best one, people just upset they aren't insta killing people left and right.

 

So really, calling it a spot on analysis. I've seen dozens of these over at the WoW forums to. And people always making claims of the same.

 

I'm calling this post out for being wrong. Valid criticism is valid.

[Sideshot]

Alot of my rl friends just canceled their subs due to the pvp. We're just waiting for the time on our subs to expire now...then we will probably return to WoW until we move on to GW2. This game seems like laggy WoW to me and without all the bells and whistles and poorly thought out game mechanics. The WZs bore me to death with 2/3s of them being less impressive copies of WoW WZs.

 

We were discussing it last night when everyone was deciding whether to stick it out or not, and it was pretty much consensus that we've lost our patience for ability delay issues and uninspiring combat. Someone said it best that "we joined the game a few patches too early." Sooo, our GM is logging on tonight to give guild control to one of the guys we met at launch, and we're moving on to different pastures.

 

EDIT: I came back a few weeks after 1.2 to check the improvements out. The game performs much better than it did when I made this post. It still has a lot of room for improvement, but I find it playable and not nearly as frustrating in its current state. We're still waiting for GW2, but ToR has turned into a nicer place holder than WoW since 1.2, and if ToR continues to make meaningful improvements I might consider playing both games simultaneously.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Sideshot

[golfwang]

Alot of my rl friends just canceled their subs due to the pvp. We're just waiting for the time on our subs to expire now...then we will probably return to WoW until we move on to GW2. This game seems like laggy WoW to me and without all the bells and whistles and poorly thought out game mechanics. The WZs bore me to death with 2/3s of them being less impressive copies of WoW WZs.

 

We were discussing it last night when everyone was deciding whether to stick it out or not, and it was pretty much consensus that we've lost our patience for ability delay issues and uninspiring combat. Someone said it best that "we joined the game a few patches too early." Sooo, our GM is logging on tonight to give guild control to one of the guys we met at launch, and we're moving on to different pastures.

 

That's pretty much what my guild decided. Had this game gotten a few more months of development time the pvp might've been comparable to WoW. Maybe better.

 

Grinding to rank 60 in SWTOR on warzones and Ilum really made me appreciate WoW's BG maps and non instanced world. Never thought I'd say that.