Required roles for Warzones: Tank even necessary?

[Saintzzero]

I wonder if any other Tank PvP-ers feel like their role may be unnecessary in Warzones. Other than guarding a Huttball carrier to gain a couple extra yards it doesn't feel like any amount of AoE snares or detaunts will have a huge impact on the match

[Scinald]

I wonder if any other Tank PvP-ers feel like their role may be unnecessary in Warzones. Other than guarding a Huttball carrier to gain a couple extra yards it doesn't feel like any amount of AoE snares or detaunts will have a huge impact on the match

 

So, normally in PvP I would consider a tank's roll to control the field of battle by using CC. However, every advanced class has a ton of crowd control in this game and, quite frankly, many DPS and Heal ACs have more CC than the tanks ACs.

 

The damage mitigation aspect is one potential role, but as you mentioned it seems somewhat ineffectual....most likely due the the limited duration. Similarly guard can only be used effectively in an organized group setting b/c you need a healer to make it work (well) and you can't rely on PUGs having healers or healers who are aware you are guarding.

 

That leaves the last role for tanking in this game which is being so annoying that you effectively draw aggro. However, to be annoying in PvP you either have to have tons of CC (which we already established that tanks don't have a majority share of) or be a threat.

 

Being a threat means doing lots of damage (or lots of healing) which usually leaves you vulnerable to getting killed quickly...especially since Jugg defensive specials are on 3 minute cooldowns.

 

Interestingly, healers can be better tanks from a "be a threat" PoV since they are a prime target and can absorb large amounts of damage before going down.

 

Short answer after the long one, "tanks" are relatively useless in warzones unless running with a group. You are better off going DPS and scoring some kills since dead enemies cannot hurt your team (at least for the length of the respawn timer).

[JoyProtocol]

I disagree with the above to an extent. I've gotten used to "opportunistic" gameplay from my Sniper - that is, hang back waiting for fights to break out, and then go and win them. I find this to work really well for tanking as well - I wait for the enemy to pick a target, then I rush in with guard/taunt/stun/slow/dps. Then I fall back, and see whose health is falling. Repeat.

 

It's kinda like reverse healing and DPS, just with 100% more blue spheres and lightsabres.

Edited February 8, 2012 by JoyProtocol

[Svettly]

I just got the BM title and did it all solo in WZ. Tanks are very useful even if you don't have a pocket healer.

 

I can get all of my protection medals in the first 30 seconds of a WZ by guarding the first focus target, AOE taunt, pop all my CDs then use a health stim and the expertise stim. 4 medals right there and maybe a killing blow. After that I latch onto a dps or healer to guard the rest of the fight. I always go after the ball in huttball and guard anyone else doing the same. I also end up running the ball a lot or typing info to the team.

[Scinald]

I just got the BM title and did it all solo in WZ. Tanks are very useful even if you don't have a pocket healer.

 

I can get all of my protection medals in the first 30 seconds of a WZ by guarding the first focus target, AOE taunt, pop all my CDs then use a health stim and the expertise stim. 4 medals right there and maybe a killing blow. After that I latch onto a dps or healer to guard the rest of the fight. I always go after the ball in huttball and guard anyone else doing the same. I also end up running the ball a lot or typing info to the team.

 

To be clear he asked if the Tank role is necessary. They currently are not for the reasons I enumerated. They can be useful, but that is not the same. Other classes can mitigate damage through CC, distance, positioning and healing just as or more effectively than a Tank.

 

Also, you should not confuse collecting medals with combat effectiveness. Someone that gets 300k in heals is very effective in combat but will likely end up with 3-4 medals. I can put out 300k damage and 15k protection on my Jugg and get 7-9 medals. I would argue the healer is more valuable but I was better rewarded.

[ZielAkros]

Depends on the player really, and your preferred playstyle, i play both a jugg and assassin tank myself considering doing a bounty H one, in huttball, im a returner, meaning i sacrifice everything to make sure the enemy team does not score, either by slow, or stuns on top of traps, pulling or jumping just at the -wrong time- FOR THEM, i cut my dps, i cut my medal gains, just to ensure a victory, rewards are slim, but they are there

 

If this is not needed, im a ballrunner, if someone else has the ball, il put guard on the runner and CC everything i can along the way, so yes, tanks are usefull if they are done right, the problem is, most players who play tanks in pvp simply go and try being solo dps,

 

 

 

in the ship over alderaan, on my jug, im guarding a console mostly until help arrives thats my job and work, come to me you better bring friends i dont die 1v1 easily, on my assassin, im harrassing the enemy team, making them split their forces to deal with me while im Solo,, usually this is 3-5 people i ALONE get on me, or stealing bases while a team member distracts them, at the same time making it easier for the rest of my team to take and hold the second base and most often even the third,

 

in voidstar, as a jug, guard on the healer, protect him/her at all times, keep her alive, their healing makes it easier for the dps to kill the enemy team, slow stun everything that comes close to healers, CC'in their healers being a part of the job if they are close at hand,

 

as assassin tank, stealth is key, place bombs, be where they dont expect you too, assist where its needed, cover up the slacks,

 

ive seen other assassin tanks that can take on half a team and hold them off until the dead is released and thus saves the fight, just cause they can take ******** of damage and just ignore/absorb it,

 

so finally, dont count tanks out, when you meet a good pvp tanker, trust me you i will take back your question.

 

 

if you think alot of this is basic pvp -L2P- then why aint you doing it?

[Saintzzero]

I'm always guarding whoever is near me getting focused, switching and taunting when necessary. I'm always the one left alone to guard a turret in alderan. Still, even of I do keep ppl alive, reduce incoming damage or carry the Huttball an impossibly long way, all I do makes little difference in the outcome of the match.

 

#1 Team coordination and placement

#2 Burst damage

#3 Healing

#4 tank dmg mit & cc........

 

If the first 3 are not met, the fourth will do nothing for the team or the win. Conversely, if the first 3 are met, is the 4th even necessary?

[Svettly]

To be clear he asked if the Tank role is necessary. They currently are not for the reasons I enumerated. They can be useful, but that is not the same. Other classes can mitigate damage through CC, distance, positioning and healing just as or more effectively than a Tank.

 

Also, you should not confuse collecting medals with combat effectiveness. Someone that gets 300k in heals is very effective in combat but will likely end up with 3-4 medals. I can put out 300k damage and 15k protection on my Jugg and get 7-9 medals. I would argue the healer is more valuable but I was better rewarded.

 

If you go with that line of thinking no role is necessary. You don't need healers if you can all out dps the other team. You don't need dps if you can out tank/heal the other teams dps. You don't need any of it for huttball if you can just get pulled and jump to the goal before the other team catches you.

 

All roles have their use and they can all be worked around if you don't have a certain role there. Like someone said above, it is more about working together and doing whatever it is you do best. Tanks are useful but not required. No other class is required either. I once had a Voidstar where we were all melee dps or tanks. We won because the other team couldn't survive our focus attack long enough to get the bombs.

[XplaguesX]

i cant count how many times my teams scored a point in huttball, planted a bomb in VS or capped a turrer on ald just because i ran into the enemy, put up my buffs , used my medpack when needed, and let 4-6 enemys try to take me down while my team did objectives.

 

In a game full of dumbdumbs that rather play TDM then the actual WZs, a class that can take a load of damage, and have multiple enemys focus you at once helps your team. aslong as they arnt dumb dumbs as well.

 

 

 

 

Also, we make killer ball carriers and defence. usualy allys have time to run from one door/turret to where i am defending before i go down.

Edited February 9, 2012 by XplaguesX

[Scinald]

I understand what all the tank advocates are saying. Hell, I wanted to play a tanky-tank Jugg. But I realized that my survival time against good opposition was about 12-16 seconds instead of 8-10 seconds as a DPS jugg. And in 8-10 seconds as a DPS Jugg I can actually kill something.

 

Moreover, some of you are advocating that the enemy team beats on you and you can take the punishment. That is a mistake by the enemy team beating on a tank and they deserve to lose. If I knew you to be a tanky tank, I will just ignore you and kill your support players and you can do absolutely jack all to stop me except for a couple of CC moves (which other classes have). Your DPS is pathetic and they will die (assuming they cannot tank me by themselves b/c they are heals) while you ineffectually beat on me trying to stop me.

 

The state of PvP tanking in this game is pathetic. It needs improvement. The state of Juggernaut tanking in PvP is the worst. If you want to know what a good place for tanks to be is, go play a well-geared Knight or Chosen in Warhammer Online. That is what a PvP tank should be like. We aren't there yet. So, in the meantime, DPS it is.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Scinald

[Layotees]

Considering guard splits damage 50/50 in pvp I really don't understand how this is even a question.

[Sakil]

I understand what all the tank advocates are saying. Hell, I wanted to play a tanky-tank Jugg. But I realized that my survival time against good opposition was about 12-16 seconds instead of 8-10 seconds as a DPS jugg. And in 8-10 seconds as a DPS Jugg I can actually kill something.

.

 

Maybe its a gear thing or you aren't using your CDs, but you should not being going down that fast unless you are being focused by everyone. The only time I go down that fast is when my CDs are down and I have atleast 4 DPS classes focusing me. If my CDs are up, then it will still take them awhile. Use your CC abailities in conjuction with your CDs.

 

I do think Tanks have a needed role. However, I think most players don't know how to maximise that. I'm not talking about just tanks. People need to watch for CCs and stay near us if we are guarding them.

 

The other day, a dps Assasin and I took a 2vs2 easily to cap a turret on Civil War WZ, we then held off a 6vs2 for about 3 mins and killed half of them before they killed us both. The entire time I was guarding the assasin. Only reason we lasted so long was we were both CCing, interupting and taunting. Plus med packs didn't hurt.

 

When I PUG it, my role is very different. Our dps is pathetic, but we have a good number of ways to harrass their healers and dps. If you beat on a healer and interupt him everytime he tries to cast, he will start to focus on you. Taking 1 healer out can make a big difference. Plus, it will usually pull someone else to come help them. Normally I can easily make 2-4 ppl attack me from doing that. In most WZs those types of distractions are enough to get a a turret or a bomb planted.

[bliapis]

5+ less damage from the bubble and as a prequisite staying in tank stance and/or tank talents + gear is not worthing it.

 

The single and aoe taunt is much more usefull in the greater scheme.

[Cassp]

I'm in full rakata tank gear, and i simply can't die with the entire team trying to kill me. with 36% defence chance in combat, even an offspec healer can keep me up against 8 people.

[Uchoo]

A Knight or Chosen is the absolute ideal of a tank in pvp. Group buffs, CC that no one else has (9s aoe mez on 30s cooldown), Spam snares that actually count for something, Great survivability (Chosen can run around 55% "defense" and guard can be parried), Knight has 50% reduced damage taken ability on a short cooldown that lasts for 10s, it also reduces the damage they deal by 20%.

 

Crippling Strikes...Whenever a Chosen crits, their target deals 25% less damage. Each class either runs huge armor pen or deals damage that isn't mitigated by armor.

 

Also...if you stun someone in Warhammer, they are immune for 10x the duration of the stun. If you root or knockback, they are immune to that effect again for 30s. You had to use your CC carefully, not LOLSPAM stunlock someone.

 

Tanks could have a 20s cooldown CC breaker than breaks pretty much everything except for stuns/mez's.

 

 

Now for those who don't know, Bioware was actually put in charge of Warhammer Online when EA bought it out. I expected SWTOR to learn from the mistakes but at least keep the positive.

 

 

Anyways, enough rage post. Tanks need to brought up to scale in pvp IMO.