Sages and Sorcerors, an intelligent discussion.

[Adzzy]

Generally speaking, a combat/carnage specced sent/marauder should never lose to a sorc 1v1 regardless of the sorcs spec, with saber throw being able to root them, camouflage being able to break the knockback root, the charge on a lower cd than force speed and 5 seconds of basically invulnerability.

 

The other specs can have some issues, because the control gap can seem insurmountable, but carnage is a faceroll spec for beating sorcs.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Adzzy

[Rodregeus]

^^ what he said.

 

That force wave (edited so the retard below maybe understands) garbage is completely ****ed up.

I never see less than 3 sorcerers per team, usually 4 and sometimes 5 or 6.

 

Imagine the fun for stealthers with 3-5 sorcerers spamming that garbage on cd.

 

Cooldown is way too short and range way too big, for a skill wich can literally disable an entire team.

 

Also, sprint on the "mage" class? Seriously? Combine it with force-wave, perma snares, endless CC and shield.

For a class wich is supposed to struggle a lot vs melee, you surely have a lot of tools to completely disable them.

 

1) PvP is not always going to be endless sorcs/sages, it isn't always that as current either. (plenty of times I have been the only sorc on the team)

 

2) I bet any money have you seen less than 3 plenty of times.

 

3) Imagine the fun for clothies when we can't get stealthers out of stealth before they reach us.

 

4) Perma snares?

 

5) Endless CC?

 

6) Have you even read this classes abilities? If you had you would know everything you said is BS.

[Metalmac]

First of that is a lie that everyone can cleanse the DoTs.

Only some class can Cleanse some kinds of DoTs.

 

You make it sound like that everyone can do this which is a lie.

 

Why do you not list those that can and those that can not then you will see why some class are upset and some are not.

 

Those class that can not are just fodder for you guys. At least be honest about it.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Metalmac

[Sookster]

Just went into an Alderaan warzone and faced 8 sages, BLAH! It didn't go well.

[CommandoPower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommandoPower

I wasn't going to say anything in this thread but your horribly wrong. Resolve is broken and even with it working right I have been double PBAOE KB'd with roots, then stunned, then restunned before the duration of the first stun wore off. That chain CC is within the rules of the current system.

 

I've never had 2 pbaoe kbs alone max my resolve.

 

 

 

This is all when resolve works correctly, which it simply doesn't alot of the time. I've been pulled/cc/kb/etc well after resolve has kicked in many times. Which is very frustrating when you exit CC and have 3 seconds of resolve left...

 

So resolve not working is the Sorcs/Sage problem?

 

Because fyi, one knockback full blue's you on resolve, just like any other single stun ability the Sorc/Sage has. Any second stun, or knockback puts you at full resolve.

 

Resolve not working is not a class balance issue.

 

With my original post intact in the quote I'd like you to find any instance where I said anything about this being a sorc/sage problem. They get more mileage out of it than other classes and resolve working would be a moderate nerf to them, but I didn't touch on that at all in my post. Merely that the statement about resolve made was incorrect and inapplicable.

 

Overly defensive much?

 

What? The only time I struggle is in 1v1, which the game isn't even built around, or if the team decides not to derp and go after tanks, and focuses on the player nuking them up. I never claimed anything fills resolve, other than insta WW that breaks on damage (because it adds a 2 second stun). Every single Sorc/Sage stun puts you one stun away from full resolve (the soft resolve as biowareftw put it). You get 2 stuns/knockbacks before the opponent is at full resolve. Oh and btw, we've been talking about Mar/Sent which both have Force Leap, so I've not changed my tune at all.

 

If I've timed my shields well enough, I should have the advantage from my shields. If you don't look at my debuffs before opening on me, is that my fault? I also didn't say melee hit for 3500 every time. I said their crits, which if they've geared themselves correctly do happen enough, hit for that hard, and especially any special attack.

 

If your only getting 2 stuns out of resolve your doing it wrong. Not everything fills exactly half a bar. Knockbacks certainly don't as I get triple knocked all the time. If you have a skill that does not fill at least half a resolve bar on a character you use THAT on them when they have half a bar. This still leaves them open for a 3rd CC.

 

Considering you then still have your snare that is unaffected by resolve, they really better hope they have force leap up at the exact time they need it or they will fail to do enough damage to take out the sorc before succumbing to CC again.

 

Also as mentioned earlier the root ignores resolve though the kb portion does not. Though few sorcs/sages even attempt to kb after their intial flipping charge in unless someone gets on them and starts hurting them badly when they are not paying attention. Then they hit kb almost every single time lol.

 

 

 

The single highest skill cap for sorc is not healing nor is it DPS. It's proper use of your CC as both support and 1 on 1. It's in fact a significant part of the foundation of why sorcs/sages really are so powerful. I'll give credit enough to say that playing a sorc team play WELL is difficult as you have so many tools to juggle.

 

 

The fact that their true strength is team play even though they are capable enough on their own is the reason so many sorcs/sages come to these forums feeling they are balanced. They really are not utilizing the potential of the class thinking that they are uber healorz or uber DPS. You can be that AND much more.

Edited February 9, 2012 by CommandoPower

[TetraCleric]

If your only getting 2 stuns out of resolve your doing it wrong. Not everything fills exactly half a bar. Knockbacks certainly don't as I get triple knocked all the time. If you have a skill that does not fill at least half a resolve bar on a character you use THAT on them when they have half a bar. This still leaves them open for a 3rd CC.

 

Considering you then still have your snare that is unaffected by resolve, they really better hope they have force leap up at the exact time they need it or they will fail to do enough damage to take out the sorc before succumbing to CC again.

 

Also as mentioned earlier the root ignores resolve though the kb portion does not. Though few sorcs/sages even attempt to kb after their intial flipping charge in unless someone gets on them and starts hurting them badly when they are not paying attention. Then they hit kb almost every single time lol.

 

 

 

The single highest skill cap for sorc is not healing nor is it DPS. It's proper use of your CC as both support and 1 on 1. It's in fact a significant part of the foundation of why sorcs/sages really are so powerful. I'll give credit enough to say that playing a sorc team play WELL is difficult as you have so many tools to juggle.

 

 

The fact that their true strength is team play even though they are capable enough on their own is the reason so many sorcs/sages come to these forums feeling they are balanced. They really are not utilizing the potential of the class thinking that they are uber healorz or uber DPS. You can be that AND much more.

 

 

Even if knockback only fills half the soft cap, the other two stuns that sorcs have will immediately pop you into full resolve because both those stuns soft cap you on use. So no matter what, you get your knockback and one other stun, or both stuns. Not all 3. I still don't think the root is applied if the knockback doesn't occur to full resolve because I've experienced that done to me, and me doing it to someone else.

 

And yes, I agree proper CC use separates the average sorc from the better ones, and that is reason I will be sticking with 31 mad come rateds. Control>DPS, especially since 31 mad is still fantastic dps.

Edited February 9, 2012 by TetraCleric

[mausty]

all i know is that a geared sorc can pump out 200K in damage and have over 100K in heals in a typical WZ, w/o much issue. I'm an assassin and i can probably only hope to do 250K damage if i'm really playing well, most of the time i'm in the 220K range. So imo, something has to give.

[TetraCleric]

all i know is that a geared sorc can pump out 200K in damage and have over 100K in heals in a typical WZ, w/o much issue. I'm an assassin and i can probably only hope to do 250K damage if i'm really playing well, most of the time i'm in the 220K range. So imo, something has to give.

 

So if you're concerned about warzone numbers, maybe have the sorc bubble not count towards healing? I can get the 75k healing medal without ever casting a heal simply by bubbling often.

[mausty]

So if you're concerned about warzone numbers, maybe have the sorc bubble not count towards healing? I can get the 75k healing medal without ever casting a heal simply by bubbling often.

 

I'm not the one who needs to be concerned friend. You will be tuned, it's not a question of when, but how much.

[TetraCleric]

I'm not the one who needs to be concerned friend. You will be tuned, it's not a question of when, but how much.

 

You said Sorcs can do 200k and 100k healing easily as dps, and I'm telling you it's because of the way heals are counted via the bubble. If bubbles didn't count towards healing, you would see a lot more dps sorcs with a lot less healing done.

 

And end warzone logs don't mean anything because they are aggregate of the entire warzone. If someone did 400k+ damage, they didn't do it by single target, they did it through aoe's. Just like you can't take the DPS value given at the end of warzone to heart, you shouldn't take the rest of the stats to heart either.

 

If I want to be rude, the assassins in my guild regularly do over 300k in a warzone. Infer from that what you need to.

Edited February 9, 2012 by TetraCleric

[biowareftw]

You said Sorcs can do 200k and 100k healing easily as dps, and I'm telling you it's because of the way heals are counted via the bubble. If bubbles didn't count towards healing, you would see a lot more dps sorcs with a lot less healing done.

 

And end warzone logs don't mean anything because they are aggregate of the entire warzone. If someone did 400k+ damage, they didn't do it by single target, they did it through aoe's. Just like you can't take the DPS value given at the end of warzone to heart, you shouldn't take the rest of the stats to heart either.

 

If I want to be rude, the assassins in my guild regularly do over 300k in a warzone. Infer from that what you need to.

 

Yup numbers don't matter. Healing done doesn't matter (even though a shield is a instant heal and there is no dispel in this game like WoW).

 

This is why there are mostly sorc/sages in the 10-49 bracket. Because they are totally a balanced class and because resolve works perfectly. Same reason the next highest class being rerolled is Merc/commando. Because both specs are really challenging and require a ton of skill, as does ranged stunlocks on people.

 

Have fun when the nerf to the hybrid spec hits. Do you really think Bioware/EA is going to let this game turn into Sorc Wars? If they do? Everyone will just go play a panda anyways and the game will be f2p as soon as the next WoW expansion hits.

 

I can take a "average" to "mediocore" player and have them coming close to leading damage or leading dmg on a sorc/sage within 10 minutes. On a sent/marauder? They either can track that many cooldowns and press that many buttons on the move or they can't.

 

The hybrid spec simply is OP. The logical fix would be to switch the 31 point talent in madness with no cooldown lightning spam. It wouldn't nerf them in pve. They would still be a fantastic class in pvp.

 

What will Bioware/EA do? Prob overnerf the spec when they are FORCED TO due to there being just a stupid number of sorc/sages when all these 10-49 players hit 50.

[Boreus]

I have a Sorcerer, Juggernaut, and Operative at 50 and have PvPd with each of them pretty extensively (Sorc and Jugg are both in champion gear with Jugg about to hit battlemaster). Sorcerer is by far the easiest of the three to play, no ifs ands or buts about it. That said, I don't really know how they would tone them down; maybe they could lengthen cooldowns somewhat. I'm not a game designer, that stuff is for them to figure out.

[mausty]

I have a Sorcerer, Juggernaut, and Operative at 50 and have PvPd with each of them pretty extensively (Sorc and Jugg are both in champion gear with Jugg about to hit battlemaster). Sorcerer is by far the easiest of the three to play, no ifs ands or buts about it. That said, I don't really know how they would tone them down; maybe they could lengthen cooldowns somewhat. I'm not a game designer, that stuff is for them to figure out.

 

If they gave them the same survivability as the assassin class, then i'd be happy.

[Boreus]

If they gave them the same survivability as the assassin class, then i'd be happy.

 

You mean they can't shield, knockback/speed/kite melee and los ranged, and then heal themselves up and start all over again? It works wonders.

[mausty]

You mean they can't shield, knockback/speed/kite melee and los ranged, and then heal themselves up and start all over again? It works wonders.

 

balance is a lie, they're only sorcerers

 

threw biowares negligence, they gain strength

 

threw their survivability, they gain power

 

with power, they gain gear

 

with gear, their chains are broken and they are set free to overpopulate every server.

 

blah blah blah

Edited February 9, 2012 by mausty

[itskurtyo]

I laugh at the people here complaining about how sorcs can dish out damage and healing at the same time while other classes have a way of putting up protection numbers, which is about the same as healing, except it's way easier because all you have to do is press one button.

[shaidarlol]

I laugh at the people here complaining about how sorcs can dish out damage and healing at the same time while other classes have a way of putting up protection numbers, which is about the same as healing, except it's way easier because all you have to do is press one button.

 

because no one cares about something that they can't see obviously. who cares when a tank as protected well over what shields can do when you can't see it. out of sight out of mind.

 

let the nerfs come who cares either way i know i'll still play my sorc well and ppl will still cry. nothing will change on these forums. once sorcs are nerfed, the cry for mercenary will come, then they will get nerfed, then it's the warriors turn, then operatives will be out of control again. lol.....

[sleightly]

? ive never seen a sorc/sage go invis only assassins & shadows

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[TetraCleric]

Yup numbers don't matter. Healing done doesn't matter (even though a shield is a instant heal and there is no dispel in this game like WoW).

 

This is why there are mostly sorc/sages in the 10-49 bracket. Because they are totally a balanced class and because resolve works perfectly. Same reason the next highest class being rerolled is Merc/commando. Because both specs are really challenging and require a ton of skill, as does ranged stunlocks on people.

 

Have fun when the nerf to the hybrid spec hits. Do you really think Bioware/EA is going to let this game turn into Sorc Wars? If they do? Everyone will just go play a panda anyways and the game will be f2p as soon as the next WoW expansion hits.

 

I can take a "average" to "mediocore" player and have them coming close to leading damage or leading dmg on a sorc/sage within 10 minutes. On a sent/marauder? They either can track that many cooldowns and press that many buttons on the move or they can't.

 

The hybrid spec simply is OP. The logical fix would be to switch the 31 point talent in madness with no cooldown lightning spam. It wouldn't nerf them in pve. They would still be a fantastic class in pvp.

 

What will Bioware/EA do? Prob overnerf the spec when they are FORCED TO due to there being just a stupid number of sorc/sages when all these 10-49 players hit 50.

 

I think hybrid should be nerfed, by moving talents around, and that's pretty much it. I haven't really disagreed with anything you've said, which is why I haven't really responded to anything you've said. I don't really mind because I'll play 31 mad either way for rateds. I am just trying to clear up very clear misinformation.

[Ankhkharu]

1) Put knockback on 1 min CD and keep the root then I can live with it as it is, if it stays 20 sec cd then I want the root 2sec max, breaking on damage in an INSTANT - ideally sorcerers need to think before they used this skill and keep it off CD for ball carrier etc.

2) Pull skill (forgot the name sorry) needs to be talented deep into tanking tree - tanks already have to sacrifice damage for utility which makes sense

3) Lower co-efficiency of hybrid build by moving Wrath up deeper into Madness, in other words taking Chain Lightning and Wrath should be still possible but not being able to spend points into Forked Lightning and Lightning Effusion in the same time, this would require moving the talents about in lightning tree

 

4) Make Lightning tree more attractive to PvPers so that both deep Lightning and Madness (which already is very viable and IMHO balanced) are viable at endgame pvp/pve

 

Without breaking the class this would solve pretty much all current issues.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Ankhkharu

[Grubfist]

1) Put knockback on 1 min CD

 

You killed every healer. 30 seconds max. Same as commandos.

 

2) Pull skill (forgot the name sorry) needs to be talented deep into tanking tree - tanks already have to sacrifice damage for utility which makes sense

 

If you mean Force Pull, that IS deep in the SHADOW tanking tree. It pulls enemies to you. I assume that since we're talking about Sorcerers and Sages, you mean Rescue, which is a 1-minute cooldown that brings a friendly target to you, and that you mean to talent it into the Healing tree, not tank.

 

That would be fair. They could also put a 30-second debuff on someone gripped so they can't just be chain-gripped. That way the skill isn't really nerfed but passing is still encouraged (and passes can be intercepted if you plan ahead).

 

 

3) Lower co-efficiency of hybrid build by moving Wrath up deeper into Madness, in other words taking Chain Lightning and Wrath should be still possible but not being able to spend points into Forked Lightning and Lightning Effusion in the same time, this would require moving the talents about in lightning tree

 

4) Make Lightning tree more attractive to PvPers so that both deep Lightning and Madness (which already is very viable and IMHO balanced) are viable at endgame pvp/pve

These are all very fair suggestions. I approve.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Grubfist

[klathnagma]

This is why there are mostly sorc/sages in the 10-49 bracket.

Sorry but I am leveling my 2nd toon and it's all mercs, powertechs and operatives and their mirror classes in low level PvP with the odd jugg/marauder around. Almost no sorcs/sages.

 

Because they are totally a balanced class and because resolve works perfectly.

Resolve not working on sorcs is a urban legend, period. It works perfectly learn how to use it.

 

And the big number of sorcs at the start of the game ... may be it's driven because is the only class that can fulfill all the roles in the game ? Ranged dps direct damage, ranged dps dot class, melee dps, melee stealther, healer, tank.

 

Because I did not really saw the big "This class is OP" flashing icon at character creation screen, when the game went live.

 

Same reason the next highest class being rerolled is Merc/commando. Because both specs are really challenging and require a ton of skill, as does ranged stunlocks on people.

I am rolling a powertech because it's fun. Not everyone min/max in MMOs. Like 90% of the population do it for fun and don't even come to this forums at all.

 

Have fun when the nerf to the hybrid spec hits.

Sorcs go hybrid because they have to for surviving 3 gdcs. Most would really like to go full madness or lightning. They can't because at level 50 any player of any class with two brain cells completely obliterates sorcs.

 

Do you really think Bioware/EA is going to let this game turn into Sorc Wars? If they do? Everyone will just go play a panda anyways and the game will be f2p as soon as the next WoW expansion hits.

I do think Bioware is clever enought to know how classes works and to tone down what is wrong. So far they have shown it with the nerfs.

 

I see sorc guildies being 3 shoted in full battlemaster every day in wzs. I am sure Bioware sees it also.

 

I can take a "average" to "mediocore" player and have them coming close to leading damage or leading dmg on a sorc/sage within 10 minutes. On a sent/marauder? They either can track that many cooldowns and press that many buttons on the move or they can't.

Sorcs can spread their damage among many players to pad up numbers and don't kill anyone but yet show high in the wz counters.

 

Sent/marauder usually goes single target and when they get 15k damage means someone is at the graveyard.

 

If you lose as sent/marauder agains a sorc you are just a very very very bad player.

 

The hybrid spec simply is OP. The logical fix would be to switch the 31 point talent in madness with no cooldown lightning spam. It wouldn't nerf them in pve. They would still be a fantastic class in pvp.

The lightning spam is not to do damage but to farm instant procs. Without that sorcs will only have 2 instant spell hiting for nothing and would be rooted to the floor to cast/channel anything 100% of the time.

 

If BW goes that path they will have to buff armour and/or bubble a lot or leave the class useless in PvP. I don't think bioware wants a useless class in PvP at all.

 

Once they change that, people will moan as crazy that sorcs can actually tank damage.

 

At level 50 any class with a brain cell will counter sorcs 1v1 but may be grav spamming troopers/mercs. The only thing sorcs are good at 50 is at fleeing in 1v1. Sorc is a support class really.

 

What will Bioware/EA do? Prob overnerf the spec when they are FORCED TO due to there being just a stupid number of sorc/sages when all these 10-49 players hit 50.

Did you bought your crystal ball in eBay ? Did you foresee the assasins nerf ?

 

If you answer "no" to the second question, call eBay for a refund cause your shew stone ain't working bro.

 

Most people rerolling sorcs for their "opness" call it at level 40 tired of being farmed. Sorcs are only good at low levels because they get most of their stuff early. After that they are an average support class very bad for 1v1.

[Skrewloose]

What ^ guy said. Totally agree.

[Tzou]

Sorcs-sages are pretty ok.

 

they only need their force lighting that proccs slow to be nerfed cause its almost spammable.

[Ankhkharu]

This is funny how everybody says sorcerer is weak in PvP in higher levels, I stopped playing my sorc in early access at lvl 43

 

I noticed how easy it was in PvP, how little i had to think about what I was doing and after I realized I was topping all damage meters (alongside fellow sorcerers) by not doing anything special, just using all the abilities my class was given.

 

This was as deep madness tree

 

Hybrid spec is atm at least 20-30% higher in dps output than Madness even if you dot everything in sight and run out of force thanks to that, has much higher burst damage without really sacrificing any utility (you lose paralyze on Creeping Terror but gain one on bubble break/knockback) so you actually GAIN cc and damage.