Knockbacks! Plz .. enough already!

[Vallowen]

your doing it wrong, against good players they always keep aligned to the long side of the walkway, hell even if i get on the short side to use force wave to knock them off when i jump into the air they have time reposition so they dont get knocked off. sith dont have this problem it seems. ( im a jedi sage)

 

you see

 

there are these spells right

 

that stop you from moving, or reduce your movement speed

 

so you dont always have 100% control over where you align yourself

 

also, knockbacks and roots and snares are mostly unaffected by resolve, meaning these ranged classes can just chain them whenever

[Syrellaris]

Fine as is (and I play one of the few AC's with no knockback - Powertech).

 

I play a powertech and I find the constant stuns, snares and knockbacks in this game highly annoying. It has nothing to do with skill. You simply can't even pvp normally with it since the resolve system is so horrible, knockbacks and snares (like blind) always having the full duration and so on. It's not pvp its fricking stun wars.

[Ich_Bin]

if they made the CC breaking abilities give a short immunity, or on a shorter cooldown then knockbacks wouldn't be nearly as noticable. The real problems are class mechanic taht knock you back and root or snare/stun you. If a Sorc specs for the root he can knock you off a ledge in HB and you're rooted and has several options to keep you off of him while dealing damage to you, once you get back on him he still has 2 or 3 options to evade you not to mention a bubble.

 

Agents are similar, you can't even charge them in cover so you have to approach them from another path, they can just stun you the moment you get on them and load up their full rotation on you and it's gg.

 

I'm curious if BW realizes how much CC they put in this game for range classes Vs the lack of anti-kiting they give the few melee classes in game. I feel as a Sentinel I have enough abilities to catch someone, or at least a logical amount but with Sorc/Sage and Ops/Smug having way to many options to keep you from touching them, especially in Huttball.

 

When you talk about "Ops/Smug" you mean Snipers/Gunslingers, right?

[DarkOpinion]

You are right in that class balances are decent in general and that Operative/Scoundrel is a great and fun class to play. And as I said it's really easy to get 8-10 medals in Huttball. But still I am not contributing too much to my team.

 

I have a lvl 50 Scoundrel (valor rank 60) and a level 24 Sentinel (I think valor around 18). Guess which one has scored more often in Huttball?

Whenever I play Huttball with friends in Teamspeak they are really engaged and say stuff like "I'll force leap over there", "I've thrown that guy in the pit", "I'll pull you up", "I'll charge" etc. while I am just like "Uhm okay I'll hang over here and try to kill some guys" lol.

Also whenever I get the ball I am just trying to find a Vanguard, Consular, Jedi Knight or ANYONE ELSE to give the ball to. And when one of those classes is carrying the ball they would be very foolish to give it to me because there is so much more that they can do with it.

I feel very much like the kid in high school that sucked at basket ball and was never given the ball to play with. And whenever it recieved the ball by accident it would just throw it to one of the decent players immediately.

 

The Scoundrel's/Operative's main tool is stealth which is not available while carrying the ball (for very good reasons). BUT all the other classes still have their full arsenal while carrying the ball. Pushing people off ledges, force leaping, force sprinting, pulling, charging etc.

I don't know an easy solution to this problem but still it needs to be addressed at some point in the future.

 

You know, you could use your stealth to approach the goal line, sit there cloaked, maybe stun gank a sorc or low AV char before they buff up, and when your friends are getting close, call out "IM OVER HERE ON THE GOAL LINE, PASS PASS"

 

Or they could use the jump to ally skill on you.

 

Two ways to either score or help your team score

Edited February 9, 2012 by DarkOpinion

[Ich_Bin]

You know, you could use your stealth to approach the goal line, sit there cloaked, maybe stun gank a sorc or low AV char before they buff up, and when your friends are getting close, call out "IM OVER HERE ON THE GOAL LINE, PASS PASS"

 

Or they could use the jump to ally skill on you.

 

Two ways to either score or help your team score

 

"Manigma" already wrote the same thing a couple of posts before to which I already replied.

Simply put in my opinion that style is both boring and ineffective (see reasons above). The idea makes sense in theory but I doubt there is anyone pulling it off successfully (meaning being as good an asset to the team as any other class can be).

 

Also a Shadow/Assassin could do the exact same thing PLUS he can knock people off ledges and run very fast, even while carrying the ball.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Treplos]

Like I say to all Ops/Sins/Slingers ... give up the stealth and then I'll listen to what you have to say

 

Good day, SIR!

 

lol We are not the only class with Stealth. But I'm sure you know that already. The other Stealth classes do actually have a gap closer. So, try again bud.

 

PS: Gunslingers/Snipers are a different AC from Operatives, and they do have a knockback. We don't.

 

 

@OP I completely agree, half, literally half of the classes in this game have a knock back --- Knock backs should be exclusive to one, maybe two. Why? So they feel powerful that they have a strong ability, not use it and have every one go "Oh hay, another knock back"

 

In fact, every class except Powertech/Vanguard and Operative/Scoundrel has a knockback. PT/VG has a grapple ability though.

 

 

I will say it was hilarious to watch a team mate in Hutball get thrown/pulled back and forth between the line and the ramp eight or so times.

 

HAHA I believe I played that game long ago. It's called Pinball machine Not sure how it sneaked into this game !!

 

 

I find knockbacks mildly annoying as a Juggernaut, but at least I have ways of getting back into the action. Powertechs/assassins can pull people down with them at least. What can operatives do? Nothing.

 

Thank you. That's what I said many times before

 

 

If you really want to use your class to its best extent in huttball. If you really want to help your team win, and not just farm kills. Stop trying to run up the ramps to kill people. Stay on their scoring side of the ramps, sit in stealth, watch to see which ramp they come from then stun the **** out of them and kill them before they score. If your team is halfway decent they will be wounded already and you can finish them off.

 

Play your class to it's strengths and stop looking at other classes thinking "I should be able to do that too!" I would love to be able to stealth, but I can't, because I can't have everything, and that's fair.

 

You want to run in an swing your weapon around in people faces roll a marauder. Learn your class, stop crying to the devs to make it easier for you.

 

 

I do know my class and I do know how to play Huttball as well. But thanks for the tip. It still does nothing against knockback, especially chain knockbacks. So you say I have to sit out the whole match and just wait till the opponents are coming to score a goal. Cool Story. There was another suggestion that I should stay clear off the ramps. That simply does not work in Huttball. thanks but please come back with a better argument.

 

Also, I cannot kill any well geared class in 5.5s, which means I usually get knocked off the ramps right after that and just the same or they simply Speed past me to score.

 

Re-rolling into another class does not make the problem go away, as I said before. You can bury your face in the sand all you want. May I suggest that you reroll into an Operative/Scoundrel, get pinballed a few hundreds times with no way to do anything about it or even reciprocate, then revisit this thread?

 

PS: Please no need for the condescending tone in your last statement btw. Thanks for stopping by.

 

 

*Rolls eyes again*

 

That's why you are so blind to the obvious

 

 

I do agree that Operatives/Scoundrels seem to be the weakest Huttball class in terms of contributing to the team. They get pushed around a lot (without being able to push anyone else around) and end up in the pit.

And because they have no movement ability when they end up down there they have to walk all the way back to the middle and up the ramps.

 

Don't get me wrong, they can still earn a lot of medals... But I don't think that's what Huttball should be about.

As an Operative/Scoundrel you seem to be never in touch of things. When you're trying to help your team scoring they are always miles ahead of you and when you have finally reached them they have usually already scored. When you're trying to prevent the opposing team from scoring again they are usually miles ahead of you and before you reach them they have scored.

So what options do Operatives/Scoundrels have in Huttball? Pretty much only staying in the middle of the map and picking out targets. Of course this can be fun, but I don't think this can be called "working as intended".

 

Exactly. The only problem with that last part is that ranged will destroy you from the ramps if you try to hold mid.

 

 

As a Marauder I think the knockbacks in the game are a bit ridiculous. I could probably live with the knockback in its own right, but the added CC component at the end of it is just pretty ridiculously overpowered, especially if Charge is on a cooldown.

 

If I get knocked back to a pit from any of the upper levels, it's basically hoping I can crawl away fast enough after burning my defensives.

 

I think having easily the best burst damage (even after the nerf) and ganking stragglers can be construed as "contributing to the team," especially with the nature of force field lockout. I'm not saying there's not tons of things wrong with class balances in general, just that your class fills a niche very nicely.

 

Stealth and stuns are the cornerstone of your class, and basically allows you to fill your role. My movement depends completely on charge, yours depends on stealth.

 

Imagine how it would feel like if you had no Charge or Leap. We get knocked back off the ramp all the time while in Stealth, so it's not like it's a counter, but you can charge right back, while we can't.

 

I would not say we do not contribute, but we are the least effective class on that map. The worst part is that map is played 80%-90% of the time.

 

 

I think Operative needs short range jump-like ability (a la Kaliyo knife jump) 1 min cd 15 meter range.

 

1 min cd is long enough for this ability to have very situational use and guarantee against spamming it while giving a fighting chance after being knocked down at pivotal moment in Huttball.

 

One Sorc with 20 sec cd knockback can completly eliminate you from the fight and force to run all way around to come back up which is usually too late. And then he can knock you back again.

 

Exactly, and nice suggestion.

 

 

This is a mechanic of the huttball. You knock people down good, you win, you don't -- you lose. I'm a commando with 2 knockbacks, one at a very short cd, and I, myself also being knocked down very often. Position yourself so you werent' kicked down. If they remove kicks then huttball will be too easy, oh yeah, hell, let's give operatives/smugglers immunity to knockbacks, let them just line up at enemy side and toss the ball around until the very score!

 

I am a logical person. I don't think KB immunity is the answer, nor is removing KB entirely.

 

I do have a major problem with being a pinball though. So, a Knockback needs to cause much more resolve, maybe 1 KB would fill the resolve bar (obviously for everybody).

 

And I think a small burst of speed (akin to Sins/Shadow) will help us a lot. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

 

I disagree.

 

So will a lot of operatives out there post patch. We do about equal burst to any other class now. We were designed for it, but somehow, due to CAREFUL mathematics over at Camp Mythic, they decided that 20% - EXACTLY 20%, not 19.23 %, but 20% - was the correct number to tone down Operatives with.

 

20% off the opener and 20% off the armor pen.

 

The problem is that our only intended use as been reduced/removed without any utility compensation.

 

 

Operative burst is not the subject of my topic, which is about Knockback. But for the sake of accuracy, I will list the extent of the nerf to Operatives:

 

> 20% flat damage nerf to Hidden Strike.

 

> 50% nerf to Jarring Strike knowckdown duration.

 

> 40% nerf to Acid Blade Armor Penetration, which not only means Hidden Strike got a TRIPLE nerf, but also BackStab got nerfed, because Acid Blade only works on these 2 skills.

 

> On top of all that, due to the Acid Blade ArmPen nerf, every other skill (i.e. Shiv, Lacerate, etc) used within 15s of the opener also got nerfed and will be hitting for less.

 

Now back to topic.

[HuntinSikness]

Commandos have the most KB ability but it's required for our mechanics to work. We do not have an escape button as most other classes do. I do agree that it's tough for Scoundrel/OPs, but I think they should get some sort of movement ability.

[HandallTorben]

Get a Assassin/sorc team or ever a 8sorc team they will never lose against any other combo. KB need be fixed.Kbs are the worse CC you can have on a game imo.

CC : Stun 3-4sec snares 5-6(only melee class) Mezz/roots 20-30sec are the only CC a pvp game needs. snares/mezz are something that a World PvP needs or the side with more ppl will always win. and all CC need have a Imunity equal double of their duration. I dont think thats so hard.

Edited February 9, 2012 by HandallTorben

[Budizzle]

Imagine how it would feel like if you had no Charge or Leap. We get knocked back off the ramp all the time while in Stealth, so it's not like it's a counter, but you can charge right back, while we can't.

 

I would not say we do not contribute, but we are the least effective class on that map. The worst part is that map is played 80%-90% of the time.

 

No, that's an awful analogy. You have stealth. Imagining what a Marauder would play like without Charge is the same thing as imagining what an Operative would play like without stealth.

 

It's not just "Charge right back." Charge has a cooldown, limited range, and respects line of sight. You can't just "charge right back," in fact, that's rarely the case.

 

No, Operatives don't have that option either way. However, you do have a tool to pretty much avoid damage completely for as long as you want, and the ability to flank and catch anyone by surprise. Further still, you have the ability to keep someone stunned for quite a silly amount of time while laying down what most would still consider the single best burst damage potential on them.

 

This comes down to the function of your class/build, which none of you are apparently understanding. You're not made for toe-to-toe fights; you are designed around stealth, stun, and high burst damage, and it's your job to utilize stealth effectively.

 

More to the point of the thread: I don't think any class needs buffs; everything has a mostly pronounced role, and buffing classes just invites more imbalance to the game. The only thing wrong with knockback are the secondary components offered to it (stun, root, snare, whatever). These are just piss poor design elements and should be removed from the game entirely. Knockback is completely balanced without them.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Budizzle

[IREcko]

ranged > melee

 

give it a few months and war zones will only consist of ranged classes with perhaps 1 melee guy get tossed about all over the place.

[goxwerd]

knockbacks are pretty bad mostly because almost EVERYONE has them..

 

 

Some games its comical how its just a non stop knock off of crap.

 

 

It would be alright if 1-2 specs had it and they actually had to spec to get it not just get it baseline...

 

I know its considered balanced because of passing but i think the real fact is it is just no fun constantly being knocked around. There is a reason other good mmo's do not give out knockbacks out like candy is players generally dont like getting knocked back and around. it is just bad design plus it is MUCH easier to knock someone off than it is for them to counter the knock off with a pass/positioning etc.

[SpaceJ]

Operatives do get a gap closer, it's just on a longer cool-down than other classes and most people use it as an escape.

 

First, pull your head out of your behind.

 

Second, open your ability tree.

 

Third, check and see what 'Advanced Cloaking' does.

 

Fourth, L2P your class.

 

(Hint: Advanced Cloaking up's your movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. This stacks with your 30% movement buff from Debilitate. If someone gets away from you, refer to step four above.)

[mightysword]

people complains about knock back in a map that knocking back is about the whole point of the map? i wonder if it's the same people who complain the sun is bright

 

Tactic vanguard here, no storm. I have harpoon which I can pull "one person" around, it has a relative long CD and I have no knockback. Guess what, Huttball is my most favorite WZ.

 

Maybe OP does have a disadvantage in huttball (although i never heard the scoundrel in my guild complain about huttball, and they're pretty high on score board when they play). But what about it, I agree the notion every classes have its pro and con. How do you feel if people starts demanding for the removal of Op/Scoundrel and Shadow/*** 's stealth ability because it sucks and unfair you guys are the only one who can ninja an objective point in the other two WZs whether other class can be called for re-enforcement a long way out? Or can we demand every class to have stealth as well? Will you like it? Don't think so?

 

 

Face it, each class has its own tools box for diffenrent situation and gamestyle. Stop drooling over other box and learn to use yours.

Edited February 9, 2012 by mightysword

[Ich_Bin]

Operatives do get a gap closer, it's just on a longer cool-down than other classes and most people use it as an escape.

 

First, pull your head out of your behind.

 

Second, open your ability tree.

 

Third, check and see what 'Advanced Cloaking' does.

 

Fourth, L2P your class.

 

(Hint: Advanced Cloaking up's your movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. This stacks with your 30% movement buff from Debilitate. If someone gets away from you, refer to step four above.)

 

Just LOL for writing such nonsense and even "L2P" when you have clearly never understood or played the class.

The skill which you are refering to (which is called "Flee the Scene" and not "Advanced Cloaking" afaik) REDUCES the movement speed NERF that you get when you activate "Disappearing Act" for 6 seconds.

In NO WAY is this a skill that can be used to get from point A to point B very fast. The OPPOSITE is true.

 

So you say L2P? I say L2R (learn to read).

[Airoper]

Ven Zallow sees no problem here whats all this fuss about?

[Ich_Bin]

Maybe OP does have a disadvantage in huttball (although i never heard the scoundrel in my guild complain about huttball, and they're pretty high on score board when they play). But what about it, I agree the notion every classes have its pro and con. How do you feel if people starts demanding for the removal of Op/Scoundrel and Shadow/*** 's stealth ability because it sucks and unfair you guys are the only one who can ninja an objective point in the other two WZs whether other class can be called for re-enforcement a long way out? Or can we demand every class to have stealth as well? Will you like it? Don't think so?

As I told you, Huttball is still enjoyable as a Scoundrel but you cannot contribute too much to your teams success. Getting loads of medals is very easy, but that is not the point.

Also your comparison to stealth doesn't make any sense at all. Removing stealth from Shadow/Assa Op/Scoundrel would be like removing tanking abilities from a Jugger/Guardian or removing the shield from a Sniper/Gunslinger. Those are unique skills that the entire class is designed around.

However as we mentioned before, Scoundrel/Op is the ONLY class in the game that doesn't have a knockback and/or a movement ability that is useful while carrying the ball. That's just a fact.

 

I bet that none of the people in this thread who say that Scoundrel/Op is working as intended in Huttball have ever played the class in that particular scenario.

[Jimra]

Stand on catwalk

 

Tracer Missile

Tracer Missile

Tracer Missile

 

Knockback

 

Tracer Missile

Tracer Missile

Tracer Missile

Dead

 

Pure skill baby.

[MrXen]

Assassins also have the 15% runspeed, as do Marauders. Every Warrior has the same AOE mez that Operatives have also. A run speed increase after a melee stun isn't really a gap closer for a melee class...

 

Assassins 15% is for stealth movement (putting it up to normal run speed). The only speed skill assassin has is the 2-second boost on minimum 20 second cooldown (if speced) that everyone complains about.

[MrXen]

As I told you, Huttball is still enjoyable as a Scoundrel but you cannot contribute too much to your teams success. Getting loads of medals is very easy, but that is not the point.

Also your comparison to stealth doesn't make any sense at all. Removing stealth from Shadow/Assa Op/Scoundrel would be like removing tanking abilities from a Jugger/Guardian or removing the shield from a Sniper/Gunslinger. Those are unique skills that the entire class is designed around.

However as we mentioned before, Scoundrel/Op is the ONLY class in the game that doesn't have a knockback and/or a movement ability that is useful while carrying the ball. That's just a fact.

 

I bet that none of the people in this thread who say that Scoundrel/Op is working as intended in Huttball have ever played the class in that particular scenario.

 

You replace a knockback that can be easily avoided by a semi-intelligent player (Not tooting my own horn but I rarely get knocked anywhere I don't >plan< to go) with an AoE stun that makes most herp derp players pop a 2-minute CC breaker.

[Ich_Bin]

You replace a knockback that can be easily avoided by a semi-intelligent player (Not tooting my own horn but I rarely get knocked anywhere I don't >plan< to go) with an AoE stun that makes most herp derp players pop a 2-minute CC breaker.

 

So the AoE stun (which breaks on taking damage btw) qualifies as A) a knockback or B) a movement ability that is useful when carrying the ball or trying to stop the ball carryer?

No?

 

Then I guess you didn't read my post. Please play a Scoundrel in Huttball and then come back to this thread and tell me what you think.

[TebsGenius]

Seriously how can you even compare the flash bang to a knock back? Ops are so gimped in Hutball its not even funny.

 

If an Op is on the top platform, trying to help his teammates and fend off the enemies and gets caught by a knockback, it's basically the same as being instaggibed. He is out of that fight. There is no way he will get back up and be any use to anyone, he is simply gone.

 

Other classes can get back involved with jumping back up, or ranged attacks, or even sprinting to get at least somewhere near. Operatives are literally stuck running all the way back up by which time the fight is long over.

 

As for dodging the knockback... thats not so hard in a 1v1 situation, but try it in a group fight when all of your reasonable damage skills required you to be in melee range. If you want to run around dodging knockbacks thats fine for you, but while you're trying to anticipate it you'll be doing 0 damage to anyone and once again not contributing anything.

 

It's still possible to put up nice numbers and get medals in hutball for Ops, but it's going to be a 100% selfish endeavour, there is extremely little they can actually contribute to the team.

[Flowerslayer]

The only times I find myself chain cc'd is when I have positioned myself poorly. There is no one class that can stunlock me to death in a 1v1 fight, period.

 

Solve your problems by getting rid of that tunnelvision. Pay attention to your surroundings and think before you charge into battle. Youll notice a big difference and become a better player in the process.

 

[offtopic]@ the Op complaining about not having a gap closer, as someone said our initial burst makes up for that. Your weakness is in the extreme squishiness that is light armor. And granted positional mistakes are not as forgiving to Ops as for, lets say a Merc, you do have ways to escape sticky situations. You shouldnt need to use vanish before CD is up, it is a very generous one you are given.

 

Stealth and being able to choose when to engage an enemy is your strength. Thats how an Op plays and that is what makes them different from other classes. Imo, if you top the charts in overall dmg as an Op youre most likely not playing your class as intented, that is, an undercover agent who acknoledges weaknesses in the opposing teams setup and positioning.

While you are melee and thus need to be upfront, you will have to choose battles and you will spend a lot of time in stealth. That and the fact you are a single target focus kinda class takes away from your overall dmg done. If you dont like the sneaky playstyle go for a jugg/marauder. It would be very boring if every class were to be played the same way.

 

All that said, back to topic. Im not a fan of the fact that almost all classes have a knockback. Classes that should have it are casters imo.

[Treplos]

... All that said, back to topic. Im not a fan of the fact that almost all classes have a knockback. Classes that should have it are casters imo.

 

Most of your post had nothing to do with my thread, with the exception of this part.

 

Either way, those who think knockbacks are fine, I would really like you to roll an Operative, play some Huttball. and tell me if you think it's still fine.

[Mertissielle]

You think I've not tried that already? The guy with knockback only needs to move 1 step to the side and I end up off the ramp. Sorry mate it just doesn't work most of the time.

 

Or my personal favourite, when you actually do position yourself correctly but the server doesn't recognise it in time and you get flung off regardless

[Belish]

Somebody call the WHAAAAAAAMBULANCE! The OP needs a tissue. Knockbacks are fine. Learn to play. Maybe instead of trying to snipe from on top of a ramp, move to the side and take a shot??

 

If you think shooting as an Operative is bad, try being a healer and finding a target within Line of Sight to heal. Then come back and talk to me you baby.