Healers = Alpha Class

[Ashes_Arizona]

Really? OP is terrible.

 

 

Sniper chiming in: if you can't kill a healer 1on1, you are bad, things are as they should be.

 

Yep I'm terrible, your hybrid Marksman/Engineering spec that puts out ridiculous levels of DoT and Burst damage together is really something that every class can do.

 

FYI: I wipe the floor with snipers, even ones with your secret little spec you hope no one catches on to.

 

And I am terrible. According to you.

[Darklyn]

Why dont Juggs/maurders get a big heal

and their repubes conterpars

[Ashes_Arizona]

Why dont Juggs/maurders get a big heal

and their repubes conterpars

 

Sentinels and Marauders can spec for percentile heal returns based on their critical bleed damage, I don't think it makes a gigantic difference but Annihilation is a ridiculously popular spec for Marauders so it must have something to it.

 

Juggernauts can Immortal's get Endure Pain which is sort of like a heal that boosts their temporary max HP by a few thousand as well, but it doesn't last all that long and has a 3 minute cooldown, which doesn't seem like a lot but minutes are ages in PvP.

 

Not sure if Vengeance spec gets Endure Pain. I can't recall if i had it when I respec'd to check out the tree but decided I didn't want to re-gear for it.

[Desgarden]

Really? OP is terrible.

 

 

Sniper chiming in: if you can't kill a healer 1on1, you are bad, things are as they should be.

 

I don't know about your server but on my server most healers get a guard. THEN a healer becomes a problem and terribly hard to bring down. I am also a sniper and with guard there is no burst - even when 2 dpsers focus the healer.

[JohnSixteen]

I can kill undergeared or bad dps if given enough time.

It typically ends up a draw when I go up against an equally geared/skilled DPS.

I can die to a well geared DPS, outplayed, caught off guard, or if outnumbered.

 

I fail to see what the problem is, working as intended.

 

Believe it or not, it's entirely possible that even if you think you are the greatest DPS in the world, there is a better healer than you. If every dps could kill every healer, there would be no reason to play a healer in the first place.

 

It sounds to me more of a tactical issue of going up against the rather rare situation of going up against 4+ healers in one WZ. I don't think I've seen more than 2-3 myself (including myself). Hell, more times than not I'm the only healer.

 

Even in that scenario it just requires a different strategy than trying to 1v1 solo kill a healer. Sure, you can't easily kill them, but at the same time they probably aren't going to be killing you either.

 

Nobody should be using Guard as a valid reason to nerf healing. In that situation, the problem is Guard not the healer whom it was cast on. DPS can become an unkillable wrecking ball with guard on them as well.

Edited February 8, 2012 by JohnSixteen

[IcyFisty]

A healer should be able to out-heal a pure dps class while that person is attacking someone else. If that dps is attacking the healer and using interrupts, stuns, knockbacks, etc there's no way the healer can keep up assuming equal gear.

 

This is only if the two participants are standing still. Since when does a healer just sit there and let someone beat on them?

[Jooji]

This is only if the two participants are standing still. Since when does a healer just sit there and let someone beat on them?

 

I use my utility defensively. I've learned the hard way using my cryo grenade and instant cast on others is a good way to get killed once they switch to me.

[Ruuprect]

OP, maybe you just have not PvP'd enough to see it but most DPS can take me out of the match pretty easy especially the melee.

 

As far as the Hybrid sage specs - if they are hybred specced they are not doing as much healing as a full seer and you need a whole lot of them to make a huge difference healzwise.

 

Maybe it is different on your sever but I just dont see this as a huge problem. Most good team I come up against can easily shore up our healing enough to be able to win or at least make it a really good match.

 

Granted I am a healer and am a little les that objective but I come across a lot of WZ's where I am basically totally worthless as some of the teams will focus me to oblivion, I dont think 1 dps or especially 1 tank should be able to take me out in seconds. We each have our roles in a WZ, a dps is there to take out the healers and kill the other dps, the tank is there to guard the healer and tank as much damage as possible, and healers are there to keep everyone alive. If you disrupt one of these successfully you each have done your job.

 

I dont think your bad op and I can see your point of view but if you want to disable a healer go for a full dps spec and let someone else do your gaurding.

[Ashes_Arizona]

I can kill undergeared of bad dps if given enough time

It typically ends up a draw when I go up against an equally geared/skilled DPS.

I can die to a well geared DPS, outplayed, caught off guard, or if outnumbered.

 

I fail to see what the problem is, working as intended.

 

Believe it or not, it's entirely possible that even if you think you are the greatest DPS in the world, there is a better healer than you. If every dps could kill every healer, there would be no reason to play a healer in the first place.

 

It sounds to me more of a tactical issue of going up against the rather rare situation of going up against 4+ healers in one WZ. I don't think I've seen more than 2-3 myself (including myself). Hell, more times than not I'm the only healer.

 

Even in that scenario it just requires a different strategy than trying to 1v1 solo kill a healer. Sure, you can't easily kill them, but at the same time they probably aren't going to be killing you either.

 

4+ Healers are common in prime time hour WZ's on The Harbinger. Its usually Rep side, because to be frank Reps are rolling a lot more Seer/Seer Hybrid JC's than Empire is rolling Corruption spec Sorc's. Whats more, Commando CM's heavily outweigh Empire BH Merc BG's, as most Empire Merc's lean heavily towards Pyrotech, I think in the 50 bracket I know every Merc BG by name whereas there is a gigantic unremembered mass of people that are Pyrotech.

 

Sawbones/Medicine seem to be about equal as I see roughly an equal amount of both, usually one on a team every two or three matches.

 

So in general its a case of prime time PvP, Rep's while "outnumbered" are fielding more healing/cross healing capable classes than the Empire is. I see a lot more seer/seer hybrids than I see Sorcerers both in Huttball and the other two WZ's. This isn't to say I don't see a Sorc in every match I generally do. But we have matches where the entire pug group comes up as SI:A's and BH Merc's with a Sniper and a Powertech thrown in for variety.

 

Luck of the draw really, but I simply think that Reps are more effectively fielding cross healing capable teams, even in pugs based on luck of the draw, than the Empire is.

[xSmokin]

I am perferctly fine with a smart healer being able to heal through one person damaging them...I have yet to run into a healer that can heal through my damage and anyone else I group with for wz's at the same time.

 

Even a guarded healer will drop in no time with the right 2 people dps'n them AND you get to kill the tank at the same time

 

Unless of course everyone on my server that we face is awful and all the good healers are on your server then maybe I guess you are right.

[IcyFisty]

I use my utility defensively. I've learned the hard way using my cryo grenade and instant cast on others is a good way to get killed once they switch to me.

 

As you should, but that doesn't answer the question.

 

Say a sage and marauder go head to head - nobody else is anywhere close enought to matter. An equally geared healer will be no easy meat even using any possible interuppts and even if the healer just stands and lets the mara beat the crap out of him. Now, throw in the healer's knockback, stuns and shields, and in the case of a sage, force speed and it is neigh on impossible to bring down a healer. And this is assuming all things being equal.

 

I am not at all suggesting that a healer should be defeatable 1v1 in quick fashion. I'm only explaining that a good healer is not just good at healing, but also getting out of melee range or high damage situations. Maybe ranged characters have a better time taking them down than I do given that they don't have to sit within 4 meters to apply damage.

[IcyFisty]

Also,

 

Solo healers are a rareity on my server. I made an incredibly long thread about this that vanished to page 20 in about an hour (probably because nobody wanted to red a wall of text) but if a premade group brings 3 healers and a tank good luck. The healers will heal each other and the person taking damage will have a guard on them. It takes equal coordination to beat a group like that and there isn't alot of it from the Imps on Keller's Void.

[Ruuprect]

As you should, but that doesn't answer the question.

 

Say a sage and marauder go head to head - nobody else is anywhere close enought to matter. An equally geared healer will be no easy meat even using any possible interuppts and even if the healer just stands and lets the mara beat the crap out of him. Now, throw in the healer's knockback, stuns and shields, and in the case of a sage, force speed and it is neigh on impossible to bring down a healer. And this is assuming all things being equal.

 

I am not at all suggesting that a healer should be defeatable 1v1 in quick fashion. I'm only explaining that a good healer is not just good at healing, but also getting out of melee range or high damage situations. Maybe ranged characters have a better time taking them down than I do given that they don't have to sit within 4 meters to apply damage.

 

The problem is if I am moving I am not doing any healing and you have just successfully made me much less usefull by chasing me around.

[IcyFisty]

Stop this nonsense. Between the interrupts, stuns, and 20% heal reduction on top of the already 30%, if you can't bring down a healer one on one after about a minute, you are crap.

 

*shrug* I can only relate my experiences.

 

A marauder by the way has no true stun. We get a 6 second cc on a (1 min? correct me if I'm wrong) cooldown. We have force choke (also on a 1 min cooldown) and like every class, an interuppt every (8 secs? again I can't quite remember).

 

You know, I think I need to take lessons from all the PvP gods and goddesses who play this game. Everyone on here who disagrees goes right to the "lol u sux, l2p n00b" gibberish. I'd like to see you take on a fully geared Battlemaster Sage 1v1 with a marauder and watch what happens. I'll even take notes I swear!

 

Anyway, it is true, hit on a healer long enough and he'll run and then not be healing teammates. But this discussion is not about preventing healers from healing teammates, but about healers outhealing the damage being applied to them.

[Chargolith]

Uh. Okay so I need to allocate 1/3rd of my team for every healer on the enemy team? I'm pretty sure I'm going to run out of people to allocate to healers.

 

And I'm generally Ops Leader in 50 bracket matches, I mark healers I tell people to focus them, even focusing healers requires inordinate investments of time and DPS output to get one down and if theres a big cross healing ************ going on, you won't get any of them down.

 

Tell me about it.

 

I just finished a Voidstar, and the pubs had 4 healers.

 

We didn't kill a single one. Even when we targetted and focus fired them, cc's, interupts, we couldn't stop them. At the end of the match they had over 1 million points in heals.

 

My thinking is, if stacking four of any class in a wz is an "I win" button, there's something wrong with the balance.

[Ruuprect]

Tell me about it.

 

I just finished a Voidstar, and the pubs had 4 healers.

 

We didn't kill a single one. Even when we targetted and focus fired them, cc's, interupts, we couldn't stop them. At the end of the match they had over 1 million points in heals.

 

My thinking is, if stacking four of any class in a wz is an "I win" button, there's something wrong with the balance.

 

Wrong, you can't balance the game based on a rare occourance. It is not very often that a team has 2+ healers.

 

The devs cant account for every possible scenario and balance based on a whole team of healers or a whole team of merc, etc.

 

The other thing you have to keep in mind is thier team's damage is very gimped if there are 4 healers in the WZ. I have lost some matches where we had 3+ healers as we could not kill any of them either.

[Choppaman]

*shrug* I can only relate my experiences.

 

A marauder by the way has no true stun. We get a 6 second cc on a (1 min? correct me if I'm wrong) cooldown. We have force choke (also on a 1 min cooldown) and like every class, an interuppt every (8 secs? again I can't quite remember).

 

You know, I think I need to take lessons from all the PvP gods and goddesses who play this game. Everyone on here who disagrees goes right to the "lol u sux, l2p n00b" gibberish. I'd like to see you take on a fully geared Battlemaster Sage 1v1 with a marauder and watch what happens. I'll even take notes I swear!

 

Anyway, it is true, hit on a healer long enough and he'll run and then not be healing teammates. But this discussion is not about preventing healers from healing teammates, but about healers outhealing the damage being applied to them.

 

I don't know what to say. I play a commando healer and after awhile I can't keep myself up against marauders. They're the strongest PvP class. I could see if you were a missile spammer or something.

 

Maybe you are having an issue because they are sprinting away and healing themselves while you are snared? I don't know man, but it is apparent that marauders were designed to wreck healers and most of them do.

[WutsInAName]

I have 0 issues in taking down a healer 1vs1

 

Not even maybe close to how bad healers specificly druid healers were op at wow pvp.

[Choppaman]

Most people on these forums played WoW before, but it's like they don't remember what truly overpowered healing is. Absolutely unkillable druids with the thorns that ticked for 900 when you hit them, disc priests with the damage reflect shields, holy paladins for a while, shaman atm.

 

I think healing is balanced or a maybe even a little weak in this game. Kinda crap that a single dps can take out a healer.

 

Myself and every other healer I have seen in this game so far will die one vs. one against any non-idiot DPS. This would never have happened in WoW. Ever.

 

I don't see why people are complaining.

[islossk]

I hate to even really bring this up cause I love good healers as much as anyone else, and I don't want to see them not in PvP.

 

But its just sickeningly obvious especially in the 50 bracket that Healers are the alpha class in TOR PvP.

 

I realize that healers are dealing with a 30% healing reduction in PvP, but when I can double stun a Jedi Consular in a fire pit in Huttball and they can pop their bubble and heal through and somehow survive me, the fire and anything else and keep going, HPS in is heavily outweighing DPS out.

 

And its not just JC's but JC:Sage and SI:Sorceror have a double benefit of pretty much their secondary focus statistics, power and alacrity literally benefit everything they do, their DPS, their HPS, their survivability with their defensive abilities....its really rather insane.

 

Its not just the force users either. Healers in general are far tougher than they really should be. I'm not saying healers should be a speed bump but what exactly is the point of being a DPS class at all if you can be a DPS/Healer/Tank?

 

Back a long long time ago, there was a term coined in RPG's called the "Tank Mage" which was a completely overpowered class combination, well TOR, for lack of a better word has "Tank Sages" but pretty much it applies any class with heals.

 

People talk about Biochem being out of balance, but to be frank I don't see it, I'm 400 Biochem, my perma-medpack is a nice thing to have, but its literally a hail mary pass in regards to facing any geared class that heals.

 

BioWare you've got a really bad case of Tank Mages. Seriously.

 

as a vigilance spec jedi guardian i can take out sorc healers 1 on 1... your just fail

[Airoper]

OMG you have healers on your server they are wasted there we want them on Ven Zallow!

[Raice]

You do know that Shield/Absorb do virtually nothing against Concealment since almost all (and all of the hard hitting abilities) are tech abilities that do not trigger shield.

 

Wrong.

 

Shield Rating and Absorption have absolutely nothing to do with Tech Abilities. But Armor does, because they are still considered energy/kinetic damage, which has nothing to do with Absorption and Shield.

 

Heavies wear Heavy Armor which protects against our Base Damage. Pre-nerf, a Scrap/Conceal had an ability (Flechette Round/Acid Blade) which allowed us to penetrate 50% of their armor. This was important, because it allowed our Base Damage to be effective against their armor.

 

Critical Hits are an entirely different matter. None of the Critical Damage falls under any sort of energy/kinetic/force descriptive. All Critical Damage is exactly the same from all Classes and Specs. This is what Absorption and Shield Rating was for.

 

This is how it worked: Suppose the following - I am a Scrapper fighting a Powertech -

 

My Accuracy rolls against their Defense which is a combination of different things: Their Level, Armor Rating, and a few other things.

 

If I lose the Roll, I apply Base Damage and nothing else. Because Heavies have such a high Armor Value (maximum in the game is 75%, achievable only by Heavy Armor), it directly influences and negates a particular amount of my Base Damage. If unchecked, it could be quite large - most of my Burst Rotation can produce about 1.5k Damage per hit, which is roughly 4-6 attacks. That alone is a lot, I agree. When you reduce that damage with the Armor Value (a reasonable number would be about 50%) then we suddenly have produced nothing. This is why we needed 50% Armor Penetration.

 

The Armor Penetration did not mean that they received 50% more damage from me. It meant that their Armor Value was reduced by 50%. So their 50% Armor Value, which cut my Base Damage by 50%, was reduced to 25%, which meant that 75% of my Base Damage was directly affecting their HP total. This is always happening against everyone, unless the Attack Specifically says it is Internal Damage (a DoT) or bypasses armor completely. Our Opener (Shoot First, and I forget the Op equivilant) was important, because when conjoined with Flechette Round/Acid Blade, it applied an Internal DoT which was not mitigated. The actual attack itself was - it was nothing. The DoT is what made our Rotation work in conjunction with our 3 Point Skill in the 4th Tier which gives us 3% Extra Damage to ALL Attacks when the target is Bleeding. Nothing else in our Rotation was a DoT - it was all standard Base Attack Stuff.

 

You'll notice, none of that had anything to do with Critical Hits. That's because we lost the Acc vs Def Roll. If we WIN the Acc vs Def roll, it goes into phase 2.

 

In Phase 2, a second roll is made; one between our Critical Chance (or Critical Rating if you prefer) and their Shield Rating. If the Shield Rating wins the roll, then how much ever Critical Damage we produce (which is Base + (Base * .5) + Surge%) is automatically reduced by their Absorption Rating. Effectively, it's an entirely different system that works exactly like Armor Value... except specifically for Critical Damage. This same system augments ALL Critical Damage, regardless of who it comes from. Even Attacks that bypass armor altogether - if they produce Critical Damage (which they do) then the Critical Damage is mitigated in this manner.

 

If we WIN the Critical Rating vs Shield Rating roll... then we apply 100% of our Critical Damage - again, this is ALL Critical Damage, regardless of the AC.

 

 

Shield Rating is the most important thing for a Tank against Concealment/Scrapper. When they were specced correctly, it was the very reason they were harder for us to kill. In the later levels, with equal geared opponents, the Tanks who were properly Specced and wore the proper equipment, were the bane of the Concealers. You can ask any of them and they'll tell you. We simply did not mess with them, because they would ruin us every day, and twice on Fridays.

 

The reason the Tanks could do this, was for one simple item that every single one of the Heavy Armor Specs are allowed to wear: The Shield Generator. If they did not wear it (which Troopers and BH's could opt to wear a Power Generator instead) then they effectively were cut off to this very vital piece of equipment that literally stopped us in our footsteps.

 

Healers/Squishies... were different. Why? Simple - they didn't have Shield Generators. They had Magic Bubbles which... well... they didn't do much against us, but they did a LOT against everyone else.

 

The only people left are the other concealers. And usually... concealers just did not worry about other concealers. Why? Because we never ran into one another. It's just that simple. We're all Stealthed - we don't see one another but for a split second on the off-chance we pass one another by. We certainly weren't looking for one another... it's just a waste of time. And even then, the fight usually boiled down to who got the first hit.

 

Look... this is how the game was designed. It was actually one of the most well thought out designs ever. And now... it's all borked, because the people responsible for keeping the healers/nukers in check are no longer able to do that.

 

It shouldn't take 2-3 people to take out one guy. That was MY job. I specialized in 1v1 combat for that very reason alone - to take out 1 dude at a time that could wreck and disable an entire team. My function is lost, and now these guys are running amok. This is not balance.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Raice

[IMPERIOR]

I'm constantly interrupting when working a healer, anyone in the 50 bracket should be. Its still not enough.

 

And I don't think it should require two people to take down every healer on a team.

 

That makes every WZ match a simple equation. X/2 where X = Healers, so each healer on a team is the equal of two players, so where X Team 1 > X Team 2 = Team 2 - X amount of players.

 

Or more simply put, if a team has 4 healers, and I have 2 healers, I lose by default because I don't have enough people to deal with the enemy healers.

 

qft - nearly 100% of the time - if teams are somewhat equally skilled/geared

 

1vs1 against a good sorc healer as sin - again given roughly equal skill and gear - no chance. tried countless times...

 

But then again people disagree, because they tend to have an opinion before they have a clue.

[crazysam]

Just because you're terrible it doesn't mean a certain role is overpowered.

 

A battlemaster geared dps who's skilled wrecks me, a full champ commando healer.

 

rly?

 

/ignore low-life

[iceperson]

qft - nearly 100% of the time - if teams are somewhat equally skilled/geared

 

1vs1 against a good sorc healer as sin - again given roughly equal skill and gear - no chance. tried countless times...

 

But then again people disagree, because they tend to have an opinion before they have a clue.

 

Just because you're a baddie doesn't mean people who don't suck don't have a clue...