Monkeycoffer Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It's simple to say that a sandbox game is the way to go, quite another to make it so. there is a sandboxish game in closed beta archeage. after looking at some of their videos on naval battles, house/castle building I really hope this game is a success. Then maybe there will be more innovations in mmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tewnam Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not saying that MMOs should feature one-shot KO mechanics, but we can do better than this. A 'hard fight' shouldn't be governed by the ability of 15 or so people to repeat 4 mechanics 20 times over the course of 10 minutes. A 'hard fight' should be a battle that actually taxes the dynamic ability of a player to evolve to the circumstances. Boss coming right at me? Maybe I use the force to pull a destructable pillar down on its head. Or maybe not, since in a theme park I'm running around panic stricken until the tank regains aggro. I remember boss fights on one of the MUDs that I played generally took 2-3 hours to finish. Anything less and it was considered an easy boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshalleck Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The price point has more to do with mine crafts success than anything else. Nonsense. The allure of Minecraft is collaborative creative multiplayer, not its $15 price tag. But as I said earlier, I do think $60 upfront followed by $15/month after is a subscription model which will not last forever. Increasingly we see games going F2P w/ microtransactions, and these are games that go from struggling to get players through the door, to bustling and thriving. This thread was supposed to focus on gameplay elements, not subscription models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notebene Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Excellent write up, lots of good things in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I get what you're saying, OP, but as much as I might want otherwise, I'm having difficulty seeing this as anything other than another "I want a sandbox MMO" thread. I realize you acknowledged that players want structure, which I agree with, and to be honest even I have to admit I haven't felt anywhere near the drive to log in that I felt when the game was new. I just don't think that returning to Star Wars Galaxies is the answer. Not saying it was a bad game, but I *am* saying that the proof is in the pudding: at its height its subscription numbers never came close to 1/5 of where World of Warcraft is at now, after it's lost a couple million subscriptions in the past few months. The problem is, I'm not sure I see what the actual solution might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKenigma Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 We all dream of that, and maybe even the Designers of the SWTOR dreamt that, but behind those designers are people that pay for development. People that saw the success model and they wanna copy and get rich. Greedy Bussinesmen who make pie charts about investment and profit. Cut the work to minimum, make the maximum profit. I always come back to my ideea.. to make a site similar to Wiki where people can come and add their vision to a huge MMO Game Design document. Vote on different features and let the different future developers / investors what this US/EU community want. we had it to some extent with SWG, til the greed hit, I completely understand that it was nearly impossible to maintain in its original state, with all the PvPers whining nonstop and the erroneous addition of jedi and superhero buffs. Balance was impossible. But damn it was fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightblaster Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Nobody has made a serious attempt to make a grade-A western sandbox MMO since SWG, a game which would arguably still be around today in some capacity if SOE hadn't repeatedly screwed the pooch. SWG was designed in the days of low-budget MMOs. I have yet to see even a $20 million dollar sandbox or hybrid, let alone a $100 million one. It's extremely unlikely that you'll ever see a big budget sandbox game. It's way too risky an enterprise given the amount of budget we're really talking about for a AAA MMO. We will see indie developers do them, but the games will suffer from the indie drawbacks, likely. You're not going to see investors take a 100 million dollar punt on an untested model. If you have 100 million lying around, go right ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iseldiera Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 your post deserves commendation for various reasons. it should be digested by any future mmo developer. I will not touch every single point you made, but for me, as a mmoer since early 2002, who has experienced the pre-wow world, I have to say the part about the lack of repercussions of loss in today's mmo stands out as the most important. I have played daoc and felt the anger when my realm lost a relic. I have played shadowbane and took down the enemy alliance's citadel (which not only wiped them off from the physical map but also disbanded their guild) after a 3 day long pvp raid. The experience of fighting for something, which has the potential result of losing something big - be in the form of realm pride, or hours spent building a structure - is entirely a different sort of fun that unfortunately todays gear-centric playerbase never had the chance to feel. I truly hope the mmo market takes the hint from educated posts like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Nobody has made a serious attempt to make a grade-A western sandbox MMO since SWG, a game which would arguably still be around today in some capacity if SOE hadn't repeatedly screwed the pooch. SWG was designed in the days of low-budget MMOs. I have yet to see even a $20 million dollar sandbox or hybrid, let alone a $100 million one. There is a reason for that. Well, 2 actually: 1) There is no money it in for game developers 2) The desire for a sandbox MMO is not shared by a majority of MMO gamers. In my opinion, these 2 hurdles alone are insurmountable. I loved SWG in it's heyday too, but the MMO genre has moved on. Maybe it is time for you to move on as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztee Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Feel free to read my thread, it explains why it's different. Dual Targeting I just read it, and i dont really think its needed .... takes the skill out of some things im gunna have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Very good post, excellent points and I'd play a game like that in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByronarA Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 OP u have my money when u make a game m8 . thats for sure . I really miss SwG and Darkfall thats what called MMO/RPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slightlycampana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Agree with all the points in the OP, it's why I find MMOs so frustrating to play these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasar Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) The game that you are talking about a sandbox /themepark hybrid is already being made and is due to release in 2012 , as the NDA is already lifted . 120 possible classes as you can either pick a class archtype or create a custome class . build a house furnish it , hire npc guards for it build a castle for siege a fleet of ships, for naval combat . Able to chop down trees , grow new ones no two servers will be the same as you can build anywhere , A seamless world no loading screens and world larger then all of WOW combined including all expansions . Edited February 7, 2012 by tasar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJediKnight Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 There is a reason for that. Well, 2 actually: 1) There is no money it in for game developers 2) The desire for a sandbox MMO is not shared by a majority of MMO gamers. In my opinion, these 2 hurdles alone are insurmountable. I loved SWG in it's heyday too, but the MMO genre has moved on. Maybe it is time for you to move on as well. Doubtful. The MMO genre hasn't moved on since the days of EQ. WoW was and is essentially a polished EQ clone (as is TOR). If the industry should have taken any kind of a lesson from SWG, it was either: a) don't release a game and then change your mind about what you want that game to be 6 months after launch, and/or b) don't release a game if you have absolutely no idea how to balance classes. SWG wasn't a failure because everyone hated (or hates) sandboxes, SWG was a failure because the design team was terrible at managing the game post-launch, and the CU/CE both tried to transform the game from a sandbox into an EQ clone. The tune you seem to be whistling after the Titanic of MMOs went down is that people should stop building ships. The actual lesson you should be learning is that people need to stop running ships into icebergs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByronarA Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 There is a reason for that. Well, 2 actually: 1) There is no money it in for game developers 2) The desire for a sandbox MMO is not shared by a majority of MMO gamers. In my opinion, these 2 hurdles alone are insurmountable. I loved SWG in it's heyday too, but the MMO genre has moved on. Maybe it is time for you to move on as well. jederix maybe u should move on or u just troll ? Sandbox MMOs are old ? and games like WoW or Swtor are New genre MMO ? ppl like the most real life MMO by like 80% . If u like WOW/SWTOR mechanic plz stay at Imperial fleet nothing to do and dance 24/7 and say to ur friends how wonderfull u feel playing this next genre MMO . kkthxbye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeo-finel Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Complaining that MMO's are MMO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJediKnight Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Complaining that MMO's are MMO's. I take it you weren't around when MMOs weren't 'MMOs?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I should add to the OP's thoughts that not only is all of that true... but that it will come up from a casual perspective, not a mainstream gamer perspective. And not everyone has to be a combatant in these worlds. That's what the devs don't get - they got the "game" part down pat, what they're missing is the "world" part. Fascinating interview w/ Richard Garriott on this topic: Watch it all, you won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Also excellent reading, with quotes from Messrs Schubert and Vogel throughout. http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/lawsindex.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaede Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Complaining that MMO's are MMO's. Ummm. You missed the point. MMORPG's have now just become MMO's. There is little to know RPG, my character has ZERO impact on the world. The most impact my toon can have is dominating a rare good on the GTN or setting the price for one by flooding the market. Nothing else my toon does has any impact or consequence on the world. This is the problem. I agree with the OP. It would take megabucks to pull it off with today's expectations and the pseudo sandbox games that have come out and failed has mostly been due to poor advertising and marketting. Sadly I never played SWG and having heard about the first 6 or so months I really wish I had. Sad thing is with such sparsely populated servers, SWTOR could probably have included something like this, it might might it worthwhile to play on an empty dead planet. Then again I can see what it would be hard creating an engine that can handle 1.7 million+ players and pull it off successfully. In terms of the 'holy trinity' of classes, it is old and stale and to be honest bores me most of the time. With todays engines a lot more could be done with movement and playstyle than currently is. Playing an IA with the cover mechanic was great, I felt like I could use terrain to my advantage. I also like the idea of an mmo where I need to use stealth/tactics to complete missions, not just mindlessly cut a bloody path through mindless mobs to achieve my objective. A bit more tactics, maybe knocking people out, stealthing past, jumping on boxes and crawling through airvents etc to get things done. Combat no longer means anything, to be honest I would rather have 10% of the current saturated combat grind but make each fight longer and harder. Make recovery a bit slower so I have to decide when to engage in killing rather than cut my way through everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzmozz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Great post OP ! I myself, am enjoying TOR massively and will keep playing it! I never was so excited about multiple characters and its the first mmo, im pretty sure i will do em all ! That alone gives me at least a year and more to do so. I come from Darkfall Online. Its a sandbox mmo with ffa full loot. For the people that dont know what that means : its a game where you are free to do whatever you want. no invisible walls, everything you can see , can be reached. you can steal from others, you can build cities/ hamlets (predefined though) for your guild, you can own a house, you can kill whatever you see and loot whoever you want. Imagine I see someone farming a mob and waiting for his health to go down to jump him at that right moment, kill him, and take whatever he has on him at that point : armor, mount, loot,... and this in a whole uninstanced world with no fast travelling nor auction house. U want something to sell? you go that player and trade it with him. Now this sound great doesnt it? Well I played it two years and after playing it i can tell you one thing : People arent ready for such thing! It brings the worst out in people. People look for exploits, unfair advantages to gain levels, steal from people or guilds, you name a crime, and it happens in such environment. Why? because you can! Will you go to the footballstadium every week if you know you will get your *** kicked by hooligans? Dont think so... . What remains in such games? That kind of people. all the "gentleman" players who have an ideal of what such game could be are driven away by these kind of people. So it remains in the "Niche" and will not be played by millions. Dont get me wrong, I love this concept of such sandbox games, I enjoyed it very much. It was hard at the beginning to return to a themepark mmo like this, but SWTOR did great with the story & all , plus as a themepark mmo its great. Of course there's stuff that can be better, but hey give it a rest, its new, no matter if they spended 100 mill on it or not. It still remains technology wich can fail. Im not worried here that BW or EA will screw up this one and they are doing everything they can to resolve any bugs, unbalances, ... . Thinking they dont care is just bar talk. Alone for the investment they do care, but these devs are also just people like you and me who will be happy when you like what they did or be unhappy when they see a lot of complaints. There are several sandbox, hard worlds out there, but too few seem to be interested in such hard environments. I'd love to see it otherwise but it isnt... not in this era anyhow. So either become part of this "niche" or enjoy themeparks like this. Or maybe support the games out there that gives this kind of gameplay, instead of dreaming in themepark mmo how this could be in a sandbox mmo. Edited February 7, 2012 by Kozzmozz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezenar Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 well considering I just wrote a long post and accidently deleted it before posting ill make this short. There are several games coming out this year that could be differnt like TERA and Planetside and hopefully Archeage I've played mmos for 15 years and like some other poster typed the majority of AAA themepark mmos have followed the EQ model and its been the same for 10 plus years. Persoannly im looking forward to Planetside 2 where the gaming will be quick and fun and 1000's of people going aginst each other at the same time. Im sick of playing games where with-in a couple of weeks your only using 5 percent or less of the virtual world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJediKnight Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Also excellent reading, with quotes from Messrs Schubert and Vogel throughout. http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/lawsindex.shtml Great posts. Listening to the interview now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiEDeN Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 excellent post, this is exactly the direction the genre needs to go in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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