Kingodin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) On Sunday i decided to bring my operative into normal mode Eternity Vault and let me tell you what ensued was almost hilarity. Granted i only have a few epics (5) but my damage was completely negligible comparatively. I have done all of these fights many times on my BH. I know them on both NM and HM. If you havent done the fights some of these are spoilers. -Annihilation Droid XRR-3: Let me start by saying the backstab hitbox on the first boss is ridiculous. I mean i had to stand almost at his side (close to the front of his leg) for it to actually hit him. I understand that when he casts mines to just strafe left and right next to him but again because of the poorly designed hitbox it was next to impossible to get backstabs in. Also having to run away and line of sight him on the tower is a great mechanic but having no speed boost to get to the boss i am always the last on the boss. Ranged can just literally walk out a couple steps and blast away. -Garg: I love this boss, but man being melee just makes me sad. Providing already poor damage and having to run out of range of the boss every 15 or so seconds is just disheartening. That's not to say this mechanic should not exist by any means. I dont want to just sit on a boss and faceroll the keyboard either. I just think the operative needs some sort of an increase in damage to provide SOMETHING to this fight. If it weren't for my buff of 5% crit and my debuff from acid blade i would have absolutely nothing over the other melee classes let alone the ranged ones. -Puzzle boss aka "loot Pinata" well nothing really has to be said here... Although the bugs did make us wipe 3 or 4 times unecessarily (the consoles would not allow us to activate them. and also when we went to loot the chest we got "unable to retrieve selected items" or something of that nature.... so no-one got the loot. -"Counsel boss" Because of the nature of this fight (fighting one on one) we are limited to very few moves because we are in front of our target. I no matter how hard i tried could only defeat my member once within the limit. I understand i do not have the greatest gear but comparatively i should not be so limited and have this difficult of a time. Also Many bugs plague this fight. We had the Bosses reset 5-6 times while playing for no reason. Yes i understand no-one buff or heal or dps other targets or else the probability of a bug goes up. -Soa: Allow me to begin by saying this is by far one of the funnest encounters I've ever played in an MMO. But is one of the buggiest!! The beginning phase is simple enough so i wont talk to much on it.. The second phase with the platforms is relatively easy as well. The phase when he is on the ground floor is what i will focus on the most. This entire fight is geared toward ranged classes. When a mind trap pops up there is no way i can leave the boss and get to it and provide any sort of help. The sheer distance traveled alone makes it not even worth trying. When targeted by a lightning ball, you have to drag it away from party members aka away from the boss netting no damage at all on the boss during its duration.... And lastly when the drills come into play you cannot be on the boss when they drop again having to start a good distance from the boss and by the time i start to ramp up he is shielded again. All these considered a Ranged class could provide much better support than me! In closing i would like to mention again i have done all of these on my BH on both normal and hard modes. I know the fights. I understand the mechanics. I would just like to illustrate that there is no reason at this point to bring an operative into the operation save the couple little perks the buff and debuff. Also understand I am nowhere near the best writer. I'm sure my punctuation and grammar suck as well. Bare with me Edited February 7, 2012 by Kingodin Remove "spoilers" from title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinestrae Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 +1 Makes me not want to even play my Operative anymore and she is heal spec'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzari Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Really nice thread i have been raiding aswell the last couple weeks and found all of the above to be true. Operative needs some love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerikin_Loukbel Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Tip: In phase 3 Soa drop into cover and use snipe/explosive probe to DPS mind traps instead of running over to them, let the mobile MDPS and RDPS do the rest. Edited February 7, 2012 by Zerikin_Loukbel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyntari Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) You shouldn't be having that much trouble killing your mob on Infernal Council. I did normal and HM as concealment pre-1.1.1 nerf, and it was never an issue (I was in a mix of champ / centurion at the time). You should be able to kill marauders and lords with ease, even being unable to backstab and with no way to keep acid blade up reliably. This particular fight didn't change much for concealment with 1.1.1, given that you were never really benefitting from the armor pen buff in the first place, except for the first few seconds of the fight. It's a stupid fight IMO, since raiding is supposed to be about teamwork and coordination, and also because of the disproportionate impact on ops of not being able to get behind target (as you noted). So something seems off on your IC bit, but otherwise, I agree with the points you made. Edited February 7, 2012 by Kyntari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinworms Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I've done full clears of 8 man Nightmare EV and KP. I haven't run into problems besides the Soa fight, where sometimes bad ball spawns are annoying. The Council fight I really have no trouble at all, and I'm taking on the highest hp mob. Annihilation droid I've had zero issues with hitbox, and the volleys don't hit hard enough so that my slow running affects much (besides I can toss heals when I get around the pillar). Edited February 7, 2012 by Pinworms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatzimaus Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I had a very similar experience on Sunday doing Karagga's Palace on 16-normal. I just felt useless the whole time; too many boss mobs where I couldn't stay near him because of an AoE, too many bosses that have to be constantly repositioned, and too little DPS from Acid Blade now that its penetration has dropped by 40%. My gear was just fine, but I couldn't even come close to the cumulative damage of each Mercenary or Sorcerer in the raid. It's just very unfortunate. If the devs aren't happy with undoing their 1.1.1 changes, there are still a number of things they could do to make us less useless in large-scale PvE. For instance, instead of giving us a +30% armor penetration buff, Acid Blade could give the mob a 30% armor reduction debuff; in solo play it'd be pretty much the same as now, but suddenly, we'd be a VERY popular addition to raids (at least for mobs that aren't immune to non-CC debuffs). Likewise, if Evasion let us dodge Tech and Force attacks. If Countermeasures also added a point of TA. If Concealment's stealth could be re-applied in combat as long as you're more than 10' from any enemy and not taking/dealing damage for at least 5 seconds (useful for those "time out" boss mobs, since you wouldn't be doing damage anyway and this'd allow you an extra Hidden Strike). If Jarring Strike replaced the 1.5s stun with a 6s "Daze" debuff that makes the target's abilities take longer to activate. And so on. Give us enough advantages in other areas to make up for the poor sustained DPS, and we'd still have a role to play. But right now, we have nothing but our damage, and we don't really even have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigoremortis Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 -Puzzle boss aka "loot Pinata" well nothing really has to be said here... Although the bugs did make us wipe 3 or 4 times unecessarily (the consoles would not allow us to activate them. and also when we went to loot the chest we got "unable to retrieve selected items" or something of that nature.... so no-one got the loot. you have to let the south side (or, as you walk up to the chest, the right side) "complete" their puzzle first each time, so if they have 3 turns and you have 2, you have to wait for them to finish that third turn in order to finish your side. if you do that each time, you wont have any bug issues and you'll get your free loot just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoLager Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 EV first boss is the worst. First you can't get into position because of the stealth bug. Second, he has a crap hit box. Third, his knockback is on a short timer and you have no gap closer. Sometimes I just want to AFK the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingodin Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 you have to let the south side (or, as you walk up to the chest, the right side) "complete" their puzzle first each time, so if they have 3 turns and you have 2, you have to wait for them to finish that third turn in order to finish your side. if you do that each time, you wont have any bug issues and you'll get your free loot just fine. Thanks for the tip, although i don't think that is the intended way for the "boss" to function. So i still think it bares mentioning that it is broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigoremortis Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Thanks for the tip, although i don't think that is the intended way for the "boss" to function. So i still think it bares mentioning that it is broke. ya, np bud. def a bug, however doing it this way has saved us a lot of headaches on hm, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingodin Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I appreciate all of your guys' response! I feel it is very necessary to share our experiences in an objective manor so bioware* knows how we feel. Please continue to contribute your advice/opinions. Edited February 7, 2012 by Kingodin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigoremortis Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 ya, my mains a madness assassin (i like tough rotations, heh), and im lvling a concealment op for pvp/pve (alt ops and such), so this is good info to hear. i like being the underdog, and felt i always did best as one (had played a top ranked unholy dk for years), so i feel it presents more of a challenge with these so called "nerfs", im interested to see the outcome after i finish off these last 16 lvls or so left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Only boss I found really aggravating was Soa (and buggy...hey guys look half the floor is missing when we zoned in!). Everything else is pretty simple. Yeah, Gharj is a bit annoying for melee to have to keep running out....and our raid has more melee than ranged right now. But it keeps me on my toes. With practice you can minimize moving time and distance and time your dots, use rifle shot as you run, regen energy, it's better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingodin Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 ya, my mains a madness assassin (i like tough rotations, heh), and im lvling a concealment op for pvp/pve (alt ops and such), so this is good info to hear. i like being the underdog, and felt i always did best as one (had played a top ranked unholy dk for years), so i feel it presents more of a challenge with these so called "nerfs", im interested to see the outcome after i finish off these last 16 lvls or so left. Thats cool man, if you are looking for a complex rotation look somewhere else for the operative is nothing complex. I dont think this character is an "underdog" either, its simply not fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingodin Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Only boss I found really aggravating was Soa (and buggy...hey guys look half the floor is missing when we zoned in!). Everything else is pretty simple. Yeah, Gharj is a bit annoying for melee to have to keep running out....and our raid has more melee than ranged right now. But it keeps me on my toes. With practice you can minimize moving time and distance and time your dots, use rifle shot as you run, regen energy, it's better than nothing. Better than nothing yes, but still not great compared to the other classes, Especially in identical gear. I understand also that the mechanics are simple but still rather annoying and unnecessary as a melee dps. Again invite the notion of why you would invite an operative over a sniper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knobbs Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) -"Counsel boss" Because of the nature of this fight (fighting one on one) we are limited to very few moves because we are in front of our target. I no matter how hard i tried could only defeat my member once within the limit. I understand i do not have the greatest gear but comparatively i should not be so limited and have this difficult of a time. You're obviously doing something wrong. First time i did this boss with my alt Op(concealment) i wasnt even lvl 50 for 24 hours yet and had no problems at all taking my target down without someone coming in a using one attack on my guy. And this was right after the nerf. There isnt as many problems as everyone seems to think there is. And i also dont see much of a problem with the whole gap closing thing either. In these operations there isnt many times were this hurts us a whole lot. Our energy regen doesnt work like the assassins do, less energy we have the less regen. So you should be dumping energy at the times you know your gonna have to pull away from the boss, and once you out of melee range then rifle shot like you normally would til u have suffcient energy and refresh corrosive dart if needed. Yes there are a few fights where we're just sitting around with full energy waiting to go back and attack but all classes have certain bosses where it ****s with their dps in some way or another. Edited February 12, 2012 by Knobbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Better than nothing yes, but still not great compared to the other classes, Especially in identical gear. I understand also that the mechanics are simple but still rather annoying and unnecessary as a melee dps. Again invite the notion of why you would invite an operative over a sniper? Of course it's not great compared to other classes, I said it was better than nothing...as in you have no other choice, so do what you can. Melee and ranged always end up have a tradeoff in annoying mechanics. It isn't always melee that has it the worst; unfortunately right now in this game they're the neglected stepchild. But I always enjoy melee more than ranged anyway. Snipers? The have enough gripes of their own. And we don't have any in our guild. So no invites for them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reiina Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Thank you for this post, it pretty much tells how I felt when I played my cc op. I then changed to lethality so I have a bit more range(2 dots at 30m and 2 10m abilities). It's a bit better but the lethality spec has other issues(mainly energy). Then I leveled a sorcerer and stopped playing my op . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggler Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 You're obviously doing something wrong. First time i did this boss with my alt Op(concealment) i wasnt even lvl 50 for 24 hours yet and had no problems at all taking my target down without someone coming in a using one attack on my guy. And this was right after the nerf. There isnt as many problems as everyone seems to think there is. And i also dont see much of a problem with the whole gap closing thing either. In these operations there isnt many times were this hurts us a whole lot. Our energy regen doesnt work like the assassins do, less energy we have the less regen. So you should be dumping energy at the times you know your gonna have to pull away from the boss, and once you out of melee range then rifle shot like you normally would til u have suffcient energy and refresh corrosive dart if needed. Yes there are a few fights where we're just sitting around with full energy waiting to go back and attack but all classes have certain bosses where it ****s with their dps in some way or another. it depends on the enemy you got assigned to. I guess as you were a fresh 50 your raid would have assigned you an easier enemy. i allways face a marauder and it takes time to kill him. Im just glad i finish them before the tanks did theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knobbs Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 it depends on the enemy you got assigned to. I guess as you were a fresh 50 your raid would have assigned you an easier enemy. i allways face a marauder and it takes time to kill him. Im just glad i finish them before the tanks did theirs. I had to face a mara, just faced by back to a wall so the knockback wouldnt screw with my range. Took me longer than the dps that faced the juggs but mine got down with 15-20 sec to spare with a green lvl 106 knife or something like that. Just have to remember to keep AB/CD up at all times. I actually worked overload shot into the rotation since i was topping out with energy so much without having to use AB as much as normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subrosian Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The problem isn't with EV, the problem is with Operatives. We are the only melee class that faces these issues. It's the same for Operative Healing, to be honest, as we get punished for having stealth despite the fact that we can't use it during raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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