Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[Racheakt]

I'm ambivalent about X-LFG, really, but I do remember that it wasn't all roses and sunshine in WoW when the system started. I got one word for you (and those of you who played/play WoW should know exactly what I mean):

 

Queues.

 

I am reasonably sure that there's the same disparity in SWTOR between DPS and Tanks/Healers that WoW had. We can sit here and laud WoW for the tool -- personally, I think it worked great -- but does anyone remember the crowing about DPS queues? It wasn't uncommon for a DPS to be waiting 30-45 minutes to do their dungeons, when tanks and healers got into a dungeon a heck of a lot more quickly.

 

The playerbase then looked to Blizzard, screaming "FIX THIS", and all sorts of hamfisted measures were taken to get more tanks and healers into X-LFG, which the playerbase screamed "THAT'S NOT FAIR" about. (It was a terrible argument; the company can't make a certain percentage of its players be tanks or heals, so what else were they to do save incentivize the people who *do* stick their neck out?)

 

Now, I'm bringing this up to remind the present/former WoW players about what LFG does in practise, as opposed to in theory. Depending on your role, even with a cross-server LFG in SWTOR, you may still have to wait awhile for your group to form. There might be ridiculously long queues.

 

I just hope that if and when X-LFG comes about and we get into this queues problem as we invariably will, that the community doesn't place blame on BioWare for the roles that the players choose to play; that the community doesn't screech "UNFAIR" when BioWare eventually has to incentivize tanks and healers to get them to run*.

 

It is entirely possible that right now, at this point in the game, it's an organizational and administrative quagmire that BW doesn't want to get into.

 

TL;DR - Remember dungeon queues in WoW? Remember Call to Arms and all those issues? Yeah, we're going to have them here in SWTOR if X-LFG comes our way.

 

 

*I'm operating under the assumption that there are more DPS than tanks/heals in SWTOR; if this isn't the case, well then, the inverse can always ring true too; long queues for tanks/heals, and short queues for DPS.

 

I remember, I rolled a tank

 

DPS is always the "fun" classes that draw more players. It is an offset i guess, rack up big number in PvP, kill things fast, get cool skills -- get long queue times.

 

For the record i play a Tank BH, a sorc and a sage

[tehjai]

 

...

 

The thing is, I don't care about that because just like in WoW, I won't be on the forums anymore asking for a better tool. I'll actually be playing the game, which I am most definitely not doing now. Or at least, not as much as I want to be doing.

 

So bring on all of the inevitable complaining when they do add a cross-server LFG system. I'll be a happy boy running FP after FP.

 

Oh, I know that the vast majority of people are going to siddown and run FPs, but holding WoW's X-LFG as some sort of gold standard is erroneous IMO, since we're going to get the same problems in the end.

[BlueSkittles]

Some good arguments about WoW's current LFD tool and PUG people talking or not. Actual civil comments, too, for both sides.

 

Breakfast Topic: Is silence golden in PUGs?

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/09/breakfast-topic-is-silence-golden-in-pugs/

[Touchbass]

I remember, I rolled a tank

 

DPS is always the "fun" classes that draw more players. It is an offset i guess, rack up big number in PvP, kill things fast, get cool skills -- get long queue times.

 

For the record i play a Tank BH, a sorc and a sage

 

WoW did a great job of making tanking fun towards the end of the current expansion.

 

1) Massive threat buff so one could actually AoE mobs without having someone unintentionally peel off you (pugs hitting different mobs was a NIGHTMARE for a tank prior)

 

2) Tank that mimmicks a DPS class (Death Knight)

 

3) Tanks are able to dish out impressive DPS while leveling

[tehjai]

As it stands now, the queues for leveling as DPS are under 10 minutes. For cataclysm content 80-84 it's around 20 minutes, for level 85 normal it's about 10 minutes, regular heroics at 85 are under 10 minutes and premium heroics are 30 minutes.

 

Yeah, it does at this point in the game, but we can't be ignorant of what it took to even out those queues (nor of how long DPS players had to deal with long queues -- there were times prior to CTA and whatever else they did to even them out where I was waiting in excess of an hour as a DPS to get a group made), and BioWare is going to have to take time (away from new content, etc) to develop an in-house method of dealing with a way to manage the queues.

 

Now, I'm not saying that X-LFG isn't something BioWare shouldn't look into, but I'm saying that we the playerbase needs to be aware that this will take time. Given all the other work that needs to go into the game right now, chances are it's going to be awhile before we get it and chances are that when it comes, it's not immediately going to be the insta-fix many people are claiming it will be.

 

I don't mean to come off as a Debbie Downer; in fact, I'd like to be able to at least somewhat ensure that I can get an FP group started from anywhere and know that it'll fill and I'll run even after a bit of waiting. However, there are some very real obstacles and problems that need to be at the very least considered before X-LFG is brought out that have nothing to do with weird ideals of "server community" and "respectful behaviour" but that are rather due to simple statistics.

Edited February 9, 2012 by tehjai
Holy run-on sentences, Batman!

[Racheakt]

WoW did a great job of making tanking fun towards the end of the current expansion.

 

1) Massive threat buff so one could actually AoE mobs without having someone unintentionally peel off you (pugs hitting different mobs was a NIGHTMARE for a tank prior)

 

2) Tank that mimmicks a DPS class (Death Knight)

 

3) Tanks are able to dish out impressive DPS while leveling

 

LoL I rolled a DK tank, I had a blast, loved the damn near instant queue too.

 

But I want to say the X-LFD helped me alot, when I first started tanking I was not that good -- in fact i sucked. But i got better by chatting, asking what i was doing wrong with those i was grouped with. I went on to main tank ICC for my guild.

 

I shudder to think what "rep" i would have gotten during the learning phase. This is another reason DPS is a higher number, less visibility. Everyone knows when the tank sucks, the tank knows when the healer sucks, lot of times who notices one weak DPS if the other one is picking up the slack?

[Touchbass]

Yeah, it does at this point in the game, but we can't be ignorant of what it took to even out those queues (nor of how long DPS players had to deal with long queues -- there were times prior to CTA and whatever else they did to even them out where I was waiting in excess of an hour as a DPS to get a group made), and BioWare is going to have to take time (away from new content, etc) to develop an in-house method of dealing with a way to manage the queues.

 

Now, I'm not saying that X-LFG isn't something BioWare shouldn't look into, but I'm saying that we the playerbase needs to be aware that this will take time, and given all the other work that needs to go into the game right now, chances are it's going to be awhile before we get it and chances are that when it comes, it's not immediately going to be the insta-fix many people are claiming it will be.

 

I don't mean to come off as a Debbie Downer; in fact, I'd like to be able to at least somewhat ensure that I can get an FP group started from anywhere and know that it'll fill and I'll run even after a bit of waiting, but there are some very real obstacles and problems that need to be at the very least considered before X-LFG is brought out that have nothing to do with weird ideals of "server community" and "respectful behaviour" but that are rather due to simple statistics.

 

 

Interesting take on the matter. Yeah I think we'll need to address the serious issue of only 2 dps and the monstrous queues that will follow. The issue I see is people waiting an hour for a group just to have it disband within minutes for whatever reason. That was a huge problem when first came out and people kicking for no reason.

 

I know it's going to take time but people are already starting to leave over this issue. If Bioware doesn't get at least a band aid fix for this bullet win the game may not recover enough players on low population servers and cause even further server imbalance and what not.

 

People without a guild will suffer these below problems:

 

1) Leveling content will be impossible to find groups for in a few months

 

2) Regular Heroics and flashpoints will become near impossible to find a group once higher tiered ones become available

 

3) Finding groups off peak times will become impossible

 

For those in guilds they'll have to run players through content they've overgeared and in turn get burnt out. People are begging in guilds for higher levels to run them through already, that's going to become a more common thing. That was one of my biggest concerns as the GM of my old WoW guild pre-LFD days, guildies always asking for runs cause no one was available.

 

/rant off

[Damon_Mott]

i'll provide a novel's worth of arguments for it. starting with the 15 dollars i'm paying to be able to do something other than sit in fleet twiddling my thumbs waiting for a response from one of the other 8 people in fleet.

 

What about the players who pay $15.00 a month not to have it?

[Touchbass]

LoL I rolled a DK tank, I had a blast, loved the damn near instant queue too.

 

But I want to say the X-LFD helped me alot, when I first started tanking I was not that good -- in fact i sucked. But i got better by chatting, asking what i was doing wrong with those i was grouped with. I went on to main tank ICC for my guild.

 

I shudder to think what "rep" i would have gotten during the learning phase. This is another reason DPS is a higher number, less visibility. Everyone knows when the tank sucks, the tank knows when the healer sucks, lot of times who notices one weak DPS if the other one is picking up the slack?

 

The X-LFD allowed a lot of people to try out out of the box roles for them. I remember hearing people calling out others for sucking in /trade for trying to learn a new role.

[Touchbass]

What about the players who pay $15.00 a month not to have it?

 

They'll have to move to a different MMORPG. Bioware has not stated unequivocally that will not be a X-LFD. If people are blind and think Bioware gives 2 shouts about them over the bottom line then they are fooling themselves. Within this year we'll probably see a X-LFD when server populations drop cause the current system doesn't work.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Touchbass

[Sundragon]

I'm still rather stunned this game doesn't offer a dungeon finder group system.

 

Spamming in general chat in fleet, waiting and waiting and waiting....only to spam more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more.

 

Oops, times up. Gotta log. Group not complete. Well, the only thing that is complete is that it is a complete waste of my time.

[tehjai]

 

I know it's going to take time but people are already starting to leave over this issue. If Bioware doesn't get at least a band aid fix for this bullet win the game may not recover enough players on low population servers and cause even further server imbalance and what not.

 

 

This would probably be the one instance where the argument of people leaving has some teeth; it's not an issue of preference or anything like that, so I agree with you there. I think BioWare made some very naive design decisions when it comes to things like LFG (either same server or cross-server) and that they sure as heck need to be addressed, and soon, if only because this issue in particular is making endgame nigh-impossible for some. How can a player get to the point where she can run Ops if she can't even get the higher end FPs finished? In this case, saying that "people are leaving" is a lot more than an idle threat. This is affecting overall end-game.

 

As someone who doesn't make FPs an integral part of her levelling, right now this doesn't bother me. I fully admit that in a few more days (however long it takes me to go from 47-50), I may be singing a different tune. I'm already kind of apprehensive about what's going to happen when I hit the big five-oh and suddenly there's nothing for me to do except running FPs.

 

I hope BioWare is actively, right now, working toward some sort of LFD tool (whether it's cross-server or not is kinda moot at this point, for now, for me) and I do hope it's successful enough to work. Conversely, I hope that the playerbase rolls with the punches once it is implemented and has some patience while queues sort themselves out, either naturally or via in-house intervention.

 

Pee Ess: this has been an awesome forum conversation, Touchbass. Mad props to you.

[Racheakt]

The X-LFD allowed a lot of people to try out out of the box roles for them. I remember hearing people calling out others for sucking in /trade for trying to learn a new role.

 

Yup, I went from WoW hunter to Deathknight. I had a learning curve. The folks would have you believe i was always going to be bad. I was learning. If there was a shaming rep system (I don't think it really works BTW) the anti folks would rather me trash the character I learned with, roll another they do know now that I am better?

[Touchbass]

This would probably be the one instance where the argument of people leaving has some teeth; it's not an issue of preference or anything like that, so I agree with you there. I think BioWare made some very naive design decisions when it comes to things like LFG (either same server or cross-server) and that they sure as heck need to be addressed, and soon, if only because this issue in particular is making endgame nigh-impossible for some. How can a player get to the point where she can run Ops if she can't even get the higher end FPs finished? In this case, saying that "people are leaving" is a lot more than an idle threat. This is affecting overall end-game.

 

As someone who doesn't make FPs an integral part of her levelling, right now this doesn't bother me. I fully admit that in a few more days (however long it takes me to go from 47-50), I may be singing a different tune. I'm already kind of apprehensive about what's going to happen when I hit the big five-oh and suddenly there's nothing for me to do except running FPs.

 

I hope BioWare is actively, right now, working toward some sort of LFD tool (whether it's cross-server or not is kinda moot at this point, for now, for me) and I do hope it's successful enough to work. Conversely, I hope that the playerbase rolls with the punches once it is implemented and has some patience while queues sort themselves out, either naturally or via in-house intervention.

 

Pee Ess: this has been an awesome forum conversation, Touchbass. Mad props to you.

 

Yeah I'm really enjoying speaking with you. I really want to compromise and make it a win-win for everyone. I use to be a hardcore raider so I know both sides of the story.

 

 

EDIT: Yeah I haven't run many flashpoints either since black talon because I'm enjoying the leveling experience. I really want this tool more for my alts for an alternative to the linear questing experience. So Class quests can be 20% of a level, space 10%, pvp 20%, flashpoints 30%, main quests that I like + bonus quests 20%

Edited February 9, 2012 by Touchbass

[bobothewizard]

Spamming in general chat for a group sucks. Its getting tiresome just to find groups for flashpoints, any flashpoints be it hardmode or normal.

 

Something needs to be done its just plain boring and making me lose interest in this game.

[Touchbass]

Spamming in general chat for a group sucks. Its getting tiresome just to find groups for flashpoints, any flashpoints be it hardmode or normal.

 

Something needs to be done its just plain boring and making me lose interest in this game.

 

So many others feel the same way, thanks for sharing

[bobothewizard]

I cant even believe there is a discussion on this. There is no need for a discussion. LIke it use it, dont like it dont use it very simple.

[Pink_Saber]

I cant even believe there is a discussion on this. There is no need for a discussion. LIke it use it, dont like it dont use it very simple.

 

It's not that simple (as has been hashed and rehashed many times over in this thread).

 

Even people for a WoW-style LFG system have admitted you'll basically be required to use it if it's implemented if you want a PUG group. That's why I think all the bickering over "want/don't want" that exact kind of system is basically a waste of time.

 

Most people would probably agree the current system needs to be improved. What we really should be talking about here is what kind of system would work best for everyone. It doesn't have to be a direct copy of the WoW system (and I'd argue that it shouldn't be -- Bioware can learn from other people's experience here and come up with something better).

 

So, yeah, there's a need for discussion. A lot of us aren't going to just sit around quietly and wait for a WoW-clone system to be implemented when there's a good chance we can get something better if we don't just shut up and settle.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[GeoLager]

The very least they can do is provide a global LFG/trade channel.

 

This game isn't set up like WoW. Zones and planets are completely disconnected from one another.

[bobothewizard]

It's not that simple (as has been hashed and rehashed many times over in this thread).

 

Most people would probably agree the current system needs to be improved.

 

 

The current system is useless and serves no purpose it needs to be removed not improved.

Edited February 9, 2012 by bobothewizard

[Pink_Saber]

The current system is useless and serves no purpose it needs to be removed not improved.

 

So are you arguing that there shouldn't be a tool to help find groups at all, or are you just complaining to hear yourself type?

[bobothewizard]

So are you arguing that there shouldn't be a tool to help find groups at all, or are you just complaining to hear yourself type?

 

Really? Is that the way you read that?

[Touchbass]

I cant even believe there is a discussion on this. There is no need for a discussion. LIke it use it, dont like it dont use it very simple.

 

Well, here is the issue in a nutshell.

 

1) People won't be forced to group together so you won't meet new people on your server through a prime old established method of meeting people

 

2) People can't find groups the old fashioned way without tremendous difficultly using the old established system

 

So technically, if you were new to a server with the X-LFD got implemented, you could group up with random people and by the time you reach 50 you'll know nobody on the server whereas on the old system you should have at least a few friends and perhaps a guild

 

That's really the concern. It's a valid concern but I'd rather have those issues then not being able to see content when I want. Essentially if you are a power gamer then the old type of system works really for you. If you play 3-5 times a week at 4+ hour sessions you can build cohesion with people really easily. Unfortunately the new type of gamer doesn't have time to make these lasting friendships cause we treat the game like a game and not a hobby.

 

Let me say that again, some people play this game like a game and other play it like a hobby. There is NOTHING wrong with playing this game like a hobby. When I have my first kid I'll be playing 4-5 hour sessions while the kid is sleeping to keep me home and entertained while I watch my toddler from my laptop. Now the problem lies in that MMORPG's companies have gotten greedy and thrown us into a genre that can't succcessfully cater to both and forces us to butt heads.

 

Ok now so we have a scope of what's going on here is the root of the problem.

 

People won't socialize unless they want to and making us endlessly travel through boring stale dungeons to "gear up", especially outdated dungeons with a badge system doesn't make me want to socalize. Flashpoints should be available to everyone through a X-LFD system so people can see them. The developers have spend too much money on them for their current use and it's sickening that people have no empathy for players who don't have access to them.

 

Socialization only happens when there is a meaningful goal involved. The reason no one talks in WoW's X-LFD half the time is because people don't want to be there. The tank yells "gogo" because the he's been there nth number of times and isnt' enjoying himself. Why do we have a system where people have to run a particular dungeon 30 times? That's madness and it kills the fun. We should be out in the world exploring and working on tasks together not spamming the same dungeon over and over again. We need to have server wide things people can group up and get involved with.

 

TLDR: Having flashpoints as the main method of grouping and getting to know people is an archaic philopshy and only punishs groups of players who can't benefit from the fruits of it. We need other methods of getting to know one another.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Touchbass

[Nitewolfe]

Still waiting for those saying they will quit if BW puts ina cross server lfd to tell me just what game they will go play that doesnt have a cross server lfg system.

Main stream current release mmo with out a lfg/cross server lfg system.

Right now the only main stream mmo's are really wow, rift and swtor. 2 of which have cross server lfg systems and swtor is already working on a lfg system and while they say they want to keep it to single server they have admitted that they may have to rethink that stance later.

[Moricthian]

So are you arguing that there shouldn't be a tool to help find groups at all, or are you just complaining to hear yourself type?

 

I think he's arguing that the current system where you flag yourself as LFG is so ineffective and broken that even attempts to improve it will fail to really fix the problem.

 

He's saying that we need an automated LFG system ala PvP que. This will probably be enough to get groups together as its working pretty well for PvP at the moment. The current LFG tool just isn't cutting it and needs to be completely redone.