Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[Sendrel]

IThere needs to be a balance, but the balance isn't spoon feeding the "casuals" whatever they want, and screwing over the people who built the MMO genre in the first place.

 

Actually, until the development costs for MMO's become cheap enough that they can afford to produce quality games that are only intended to fill niches, that pretty well describes how they'll be 'balanced'. The 'people who built the MMO genre' have all grown up and don't take kindly to having their time wasted.

[Touchbass]

I don't always have friends who are on-line, and when this happens there are two options (under both prospective scenarios):

 

1. Find a tank in LFG. Maybe he's really good. Maybe he's a cool dude. Maybe he gets on vent and we have a great time. So I friend him and the next time I'm on at that time we do another instance, and so on and so forth.

 

2. Hit the queue button. A tank magically appears. There's no difficult content (thanks to LFD skill dilution), there's no social attachment, there's no socialization (vent or otherwise). I don't know if this dude is cool, he's probably decent, but it doesn't really matter because everything is easy. He leaves and I don't really bother with him because I can just hit that queue button again next time.

 

I'm all for systems that brings player together in an environment where there are challenges to overcome, and where they can group together and interact conveniently thereafter.

 

Cross-server systems don't do that.

 

Automatic systems don't do that.

 

 

 

I personally liked unilateral kicking.

 

 

 

WotLK also disenfranchised a large swathe of people who really loved the game.

 

There needs to be a balance, but the balance isn't spoon feeding the "casuals" whatever they want, and screwing over the people who built the MMO genre in the first place.

 

 

I left WoW to escape the community corruption of LFD.

 

But apparently the LFDers aren't happy just having their one game, they need to have all the games.

 

It's like politics. The people who want to ban marijuana won't just not smoke marijuana, they don't want anyone to do it.

 

 

 

This is a faction balance issue, and needs to be addressed somehow.

 

 

Here's the problem with your theory:

 

You can't make friends while leveling on a reliable basis. Players weave in and out of characters, play at different times and some power level while others leave. You can make friends but it's not condusive conditions to make friends.

 

Now at max level, dungeon content only lasts 2-3 weeks if that. Players really have no incentive to go back to dungeons once they've gotten all the drops and farmed all the badges. So after that happens no one runs the bloody *********** dungeons anymore. How are you suppose to make friends then?

 

1) Almost no one is running lower levels dungeons on my server now

 

2) No one is running non-HM dungeons as it's easier to PvP

 

3) PvP is automated and people make friends via that.

[Moricthian]

The argument isn't that getting groups easily is bad, or that it's asocial, the argument is that the side effects of an automated, cross-server system, which groups people who have no connection (i.e. exist in the same game world because they're on the same server) creates a massive disincentive for social activity, and also creates a massive move towards "dumbed down" content, because the group cohesion and co-ordination just isn't "there".

 

This starts a downward spiral to where the game because totally asocial and formulaic, and nothing is a challenge, and nothing is therefore rewarding.

 

The argument is stupid when your over-simplify it the way you have.

[Touchbass]

The argument is stupid when your over-simplify it the way you have.

.

 

This coming from the guy who throws out pot analogies?

[TarikGur]

The argument is stupid when your over-simplify it the way you have.

 

The argument isn't that getting groups easily is bad, or that it's asocial, the argument is that the side effects of an automated, cross-server system, which groups people who have no connection (i.e. exist in the same game world because they're on the same server) creates a massive disincentive for social activity, and also creates a massive move towards "dumbed down" content, because the group cohesion and co-ordination just isn't "there".

 

This starts a downward spiral to where the game because totally asocial and formulaic, and nothing is a challenge, and nothing is therefore rewarding.

 

No, you are simply wrong...its really hard for anyone to argue with you because your points are so wrong we just sit there shacking our heads.

 

Standing there yelling for a group is social how?? It doesnt matter what you think will HAPPEN, it matter what IS already happening....you are comparing points that cant be compared.

 

not finding a group is killing any possibility of social interaction. at least this way we have a CHANCE of being social and having fun, the alternative is just standing there doing nothing.

[Drainedsoul]

They, can, but it becomes harder and harder. Back in BC, the time you so much cherish, the gear ladder was abysmal. Any guild past Gruul/Mag would hardly accept players not wearing their current gear level, be it from SSC/TK or Hyjal/BT. Not to mention, BC had Sunwell which is probably one of the most elitists expansion in the history of MMOs.

 

I got into a guild that was doing Hyjal/BT wearing nothing from any raid higher than Karazhan, because I had a reputation on the server for actually being good.

 

Besides, who cares? If a guild hasn't seen Kara/Gruul/Mag, why shouldn't they go through it and then progress? It's not like their just redoing content. I don't understand this mentality that everyone must see the latest content or the world will end.

 

Negatively impact what? I want a tool with a checkbox to allow people with your mind set to say "I want to group with people from my server only" while I can leave that box unchecked and just play a dungeon as soon as possible.

 

You clearly don't understand the system of incentives behind something like that. As soon as you introduce the option of grouping with people not on your server, people are going to take it. They're going to say "oh well I just don't feel like waiting this one time" and eventually that -- in aggregate -- creates an avalanche where on server players are grouped up with off server players so quickly that forming a totally on server group takes much longer than it did before.

 

And there's still the automatic aspect. If I'm automatically inducted into a group, I can't vet the group for people I don't like or don't want to play with, and they can't do the same for me. Moreover, they can't look at the queue of people, see someone they like, and select them over anyone else, because everyone is treated equally by the system.

 

"I want this feature, therefore it should be in the game" is a terrible mindset, because things can have unintended consequences. People in the U.S. wanted houses, so they said the government should conspire to make sure they can get mortgages.

 

I mean there was no downside to that...right? People got houses and lived happily ever after, there was no perverted system of incentives that conspired to destroy the system it was supposed to enforce?

 

...right?

[EyeRekon]

I'm glad to see that there are others which really understand the problem. Great example.

 

The thought that the current system of finding a group is what makes this game social requires such stupidity I don't now how people function. The current system does not require people to be social, it requires people to be patient.

 

The current system isn't social, it just isn't.

 

Spamming LFG general isn't social.

 

Flagging yourself in the useless LFG tool we have now isn't social.

 

Whispering some random person is kind of social but the conversation lasts about 10 seconds as they tell you they can't go.

 

Even when people respond to your request they usually respond with something like:

 

"Sure"

 

"I'll go"

 

"Invite plz"

 

"If we don't get another person soon, I'm going to log."

 

"Are you a healer?"

 

This is not social activity. The above is the process of finding groups. Its no more social than asking some stranger int he supermarket if he'll hand you the bread that he's closer to.

 

This is an MMO. I'd like a system that would actually enable me to play with other people.

[BlueSkittles]

Negatively impact what? I want a tool with a checkbox to allow people with your mind set to say "I want to group with people from my server only" while I can leave that box unchecked and just play a dungeon as soon as possible.

 

Let the "tools", like me, use each other to play their co-op game. Let the people with social interest play their social game. Look at the bright side, this system will seed out both groups of players. It's a win-win scenario.

 

If most people let that checkbox unchecked, I'm sorry, but that means you are part of a vocal minority that wants to force the majority to play however you see fit.

 

I understand the desire to compromise, as in add a choice for []same-server & []cross-server, to maybe help the so called "community". But I think we need to get past that. Fragmenting the potential group base doesn't help either side.

 

What we need is what WoW is adding now. Battle Tags and cross-server grouping. Hell, let's go further and ask for cross-realm guilds. Lets not take even once step backwards to MAYBE help the people who believe they will lose their sense of community.

 

(Politicians Voice): I believe we can take a step towards a brighter tomorrow, today. Let us not compromise our sense of fair play. Let us pull up our brothers and sisters who cannot see the wonders we see. We shall overcome.

[Moricthian]

I got into a guild that was doing Hyjal/BT wearing nothing from any raid higher than Karazhan, because I had a reputation on the server for actually being good.

 

Besides, who cares? If a guild hasn't seen Kara/Gruul/Mag, why shouldn't they go through it and then progress? It's not like their just redoing content. I don't understand this mentality that everyone must see the latest content or the world will end.

 

 

 

You clearly don't understand the system of incentives behind something like that. As soon as you introduce the option of grouping with people not on your server, people are going to take it. They're going to say "oh well I just don't feel like waiting this one time" and eventually that -- in aggregate -- creates an avalanche where on server players are grouped up with off server players so quickly that forming a totally on server group takes much longer than it did before.

 

And there's still the automatic aspect. If I'm automatically inducted into a group, I can't vet the group for people I don't like or don't want to play with, and they can't do the same for me. Moreover, they can't look at the queue of people, see someone they like, and select them over anyone else, because everyone is treated equally by the system.

 

"I want this feature, therefore it should be in the game" is a terrible mindset, because things can have unintended consequences. People in the U.S. wanted houses, so they said the government should conspire to make sure they can get mortgages.

 

I mean there was no downside to that...right? People got houses and lived happily ever after, there was no perverted system of incentives that conspired to destroy the system it was supposed to enforce?

 

...right?

 

Haha, this is starting to get entertaining. Let's compare getting a LFG tool to the economic crisis!

 

Rediculous

[Drainedsoul]

I'm glad to see that there are others which really understand the problem. Great example.

 

Except they don't understand the problem, which is the real issue.

 

People are over-simplifying the issue or looking at only one facet of it, which is the real problem with discussing this issue.

 

The "social" aspect that I -- and others -- are defending is not a part of actually finding and making a group, it's the fact that the group that you make is selected from a base of players with which you have convenient opportunity to socialize again in an environment where repeat socialization earns you substantial rewards.

 

People who actively did 5-mans in vanilla/BC/early WotLK had a network of people who knew them and who'd do groups with them. This was the reward that made socialization desirable. Nowadays people can just click a button so why bother meeting new people?

 

We don't just meet new people because we happen to meet new people, there's always a reason that brings people together, whether it's working collaboratively on a project or both liking the same music.

 

Going to the same class for a semester with someone gives you the opportunity to befriend that person. Going to an event with that same person for 30 minutes and then never seeing them again doesn't.

 

That's the point.

 

That's the problem.

 

That's what people are not understanding.

 

People are focussing on the actual act of getting a group together, rather than the incentives and side effects which are in play and of which that act is a necessary consequence.

[Skann]

How do you figure that?

 

I enjoyed a game where I could be part of a community, as opposed to a game where I played alone.

 

You don't see me on the Skyrim forums trying to get them to add on-line feature to that game, do you?

 

By your own words. Your need to be recognized as a 'good' player in a virtual community.

 

And who said that I was?

 

Wanting to do something with other people on a recurring basis is not "seeking social recognition".

 

You're projecting attributes onto me that do not exist. I'm looking to have a good time and meet people. It's like going to a bar or club except the medium is a video game rather than a venue.

 

No, it's not, it's hardly that. And if you really think that you can fulfill social needs in front of a computer with virtual friends instead of humans in flesh and blood, you should consider professional help.

 

Except they aren't.

 

There are "group/co-op games". Like Call of Duty and Halo...

 

You're trying to make this genre something that it isn't, that's the problem. You're trying to fundamentally change the genre because you have some conception that it is something that it isn't.

 

If it was a "group/co-op game" it'd be a "multiplayer role-playing game", there would be no need for it to be "massively" so.

 

You're complaining not because of something missing from this game, but because this game isn't the game you want at all, i.e. it's not the right genre.

 

Once again you rely on believing that you know what is the true definition of a MMO, and your definition is the only right and correct one. You are wrong again. Any online game with hundreds of thousands of players IS a MMO. Just look at the meanings of the acronym, there is ZERO reference to social aspects.

 

What did I say that goes against this.

 

The issue isn't that one of us wants to "just [...] play a game" and the other doesn't. The issue is that we fundamentally disagree on what playing this game entails.

 

I think this game is supposed to be on MMORPG.

 

You don't.

 

I don't oppose servers growing, but I do oppose people being selected from basically a different universe, where I can't interact with them in any way, and being plopped into a group with me simply to serve as a warm body.

 

For me a MMO is just a fancy name for a co-op role play game (where the vast majority of the players don't role play at all, they just play "classes" of characters). Simple as that.

 

You talk about interaction if the ONLY tool available wasn't a IRC interface straight out of the 80s. Give me a break, what meaningful conversation do you have during the course of a Flashpoint? Do you really stop playing to discuss (while typing) religion or politics before killing a boss?

[Drainedsoul]

Haha, this is starting to get entertaining. Let's compare getting a LFG tool to the economic crisis!

 

Rediculous

 

Stating that something is "[r]ediculous [sic]" but not giving a reason as to why is not compelling.

 

In both economics and social interaction people respond to incentives, therefore, the two are -- in some instances -- comparable.

[Touchbass]

The thought that the current system of finding a group is what makes this game social requires such stupidity I don't now how people function. The current system does not require people to be social, it requires people to be patient.

 

The current system isn't social, it just isn't.

 

Spamming LFG general isn't social.

 

Flagging yourself in the useless LFG tool we have now isn't social.

 

Whispering some random person is kind of social but the conversation lasts about 10 seconds as they tell you they can't go.

 

Even when people respond to your request they usually respond with something like:

 

"Sure"

 

"I'll go"

 

"Invite plz"

 

"If we don't get another person soon, I'm going to log."

 

"Are you a healer?"

 

This is not social activity. The above is the process of finding groups. Its no more social than asking some stranger int he supermarket if he'll hand you the bread that he's closer to.

 

This is an MMO. I'd like a system that would actually enable me to play with other people.

 

Let me tell you what is exactly happening so we can get some basis for what is going on. What is happening is people are playing 4+ hours a day in massive sessions, this is a very small part of the population much to their surprise. So they group up and power through the content picking up all available tanks/heals for themselves essentially leaving the bottom of the barrel behind for the rest of us.

 

When you introduce the X-LFD those "power gamers" are no longer special and can't monopolize the server population like cattle anymore where they are the pseudo-kings. When they try to enter the LFD system they find most players are bad, because they haven't spend the extra weeks and months of game time to progress through an instance. Instead of being an ambassador to the game, it subconsiously bothers them that they have a life outside of the game and they punish them with kicks and throw up their arms in a tantrum and quit.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Touchbass

[Sendrel]

You clearly don't understand the system of incentives behind something like that. As soon as you introduce the option of grouping with people not on your server, people are going to take it. They're going to say "oh well I just don't feel like waiting this one time" and eventually that -- in aggregate -- creates an avalanche where on server players are grouped up with off server players so quickly that forming a totally on server group takes much longer than it did before.

 

I asked before, but what exactly does that say about your community? Forcing interaction doesn't make a community. It makes for a group of people that will jump at the opportunity to actually play the game instead of the chat box.

 

And there's still the automatic aspect. If I'm automatically inducted into a group, I can't vet the group for people I don't like or don't want to play with, and they can't do the same for me. Moreover, they can't look at the queue of people, see someone they like, and select them over anyone else, because everyone is treated equally by the system.

 

All of that can, and should be included in cross server LFD tools going forward. Why are people so obsessed with taking ten steps backwards instead of fixing the perceived problems with current tech?

[Moricthian]

Stating that something is "[r]ediculous [sic]" but not giving a reason as to why is not compelling.

 

In both economics and social interaction people respond to incentives, therefore, the two are -- in some instances -- comparable.

 

Trust me, I don't need to give the reason. You're doing a pretty good job of that yourself.

[BlueSkittles]

Let me tell you what is exactly happening so we can get some basis for what is going on. What is happening is people are playing 4+ hours a day in massive sessions, this is a very small part of the population much to their surprise. So they group up and power through the content picking up all available tanks/heals for themselves essentially leaving the bottom of the barral behind for the rest of us.

 

When you introduce the X-LFD those "power gamers" are no longer special and can't monopolize the server population like cattle anymore where they are the pseudo-kings. When they try to enter the LFD system they find most players are bad, because they haven't spend the extra weeks and months of game time to progress through an instance. Instead of being an ambassador to the game, it subconsiously bothers them that they have a life outside of the game and they punish them with kicks and throw up their arms in a tantrum and quit.

 

Spot the **** on! Another good one Touch.

 

Edit to add:

 

All of that can, and should be included in cross server LFD tools going forward. Why are people so obsessed with taking ten steps backwards instead of fixing the perceived problems with current tech?

 

Exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post. Let's not take even one step backwards. Instead, lets go 15 steps forward and surpass even what WoW is doing and make SWTOR the game to play.

Edited February 8, 2012 by BlueSkittles

[Touchbass]

 

I left WoW to escape the community corruption of LFD.

 

Wow, I was spot on with my earlier analysis

[Drainedsoul]

By your own words. Your need to be recognized as a 'good' player in a virtual community.

 

I never said that I had a "need" to be thusly recognized, I merely pointed out that being thus had certain positive side effects, and was therefore desirable.

 

No, it's not, it's hardly that. And if you really think that you can fulfill social needs in front of a computer with virtual friends instead of humans in flesh and blood, you should consider professional help.

 

Where did I say that I would use "virtual friends" instead of "humans in flesh and blood"? You're treating two things as mutually exclusive when they aren't. I can choose both.

 

That's like saying "you go to movie theatres, therefore, you don't watch live theatre". It's ridiculous because the two actions are not mutually exclusive. You can enjoy the "silver screen" while also enjoying a real live play.

 

Once again you rely on believing that you know what is the true definition of a MMO, and your definition is the only right and correct one. You are wrong again. Any online game with hundreds of thousands of players IS a MMO. Just look at the meanings of the acronym, there is ZERO reference to social aspects.

 

That's an argument by assertion.

 

A game is an MMORPG because it is "massively multiplayer", "online", and a "role-playing game".

 

When you take away from elements which define being "massively multiplayer" -- i.e. interacting with people on a massive scale (i.e. your server) -- and replace them with elements which are more traditionally multiplayre -- i.e. matchmaking -- then you're detracting from the "massively" quantifier which is part of the name and definition of the genre.

 

For me a MMO is just a fancy name for a co-op role play game (where the vast majority of the players don't role play at all, they just play "classes" of characters). Simple as that.

 

You can just say "[f]or me a MMO is just [...]" anymore than I can say "for me red is just green". That's arbitrary redefinition of terms. In order to qualify a game must be:

 

"massively multiplayer"

"online" and a

"role-playing game"

 

Meaning that you must play a role, you must do so on-line, and you must do so in a setting where you're interacting with many players simultaneously. Logging in and clicking a button to queue up with 4 random people does not meet the criterion of "massively multiplayer", it is simply "multiplayer" in the same way that CoD and Halo are.

 

Do you really stop playing to discuss (while typing) religion or politics before killing a boss?

 

I actually wouldn't mind.

 

Especially politics.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Drainedsoul

[EyeRekon]

Spot the **** on! Another good one Touch.

 

Edit to add:

 

 

 

Exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post. Let's not take even one step backwards. Instead, lets go 15 steps forward and surpass even what WoW is doing and make SWTOR the game to play.

 

That certainly would fit BioWare's "unconventional, revolutionary, renegade" approach to MMO.

[Touchbass]

Spot the **** on! Another good one Touch.

 

Edit to add:

 

 

 

Exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post. Let's not take even one step backwards. Instead, lets go 15 steps forward and surpass even what WoW is doing and make SWTOR the game to play.

 

Well said Blue.

 

I find it funny that these "power gamers" think Bioware has their back. Bioware will sell them out for a dollar if it would improve their bottom line. The only reason these features aren't in game is because Bioware ran out of development and they've admitted to working on a LFD feature anyways.

 

It's like the combat log debate

 

Player A: Finally, Bioware understands me, I'm tried of being punished cause the feature is stupid in the game

 

Player B: We can't perform with our characters at all cause we don't have metrics that work, we're going back to WoW so let us know when you decide to add them

 

Bioware: Combat logs are coming soon!

Edited February 8, 2012 by Touchbass

[Sendrel]

I got into a guild that was doing Hyjal/BT wearing nothing from any raid higher than Karazhan, because I had a reputation on the server for actually being good. And I had a buddy in the guild. And it was after they lifted the attunement reqs. Also, they were short a regular (insert whatever class you played) and were having trouble recruiting any server transfers..

 

Fixed for spelling errors.

 

Missed this gem. The tuning for BC raids were such that you weren't skipping tiers and getting slots in raiding (especially progression raiding) guilds based on your server rep alone.

[Touchbass]

Fixed for spelling errors.

 

Missed this gem. The tuning for BC raids were such that you weren't skipping tiers and getting slots in raiding (especially progression raiding) guilds based on your server rep alone.

 

 

lol if his reputation was so strong then why did he need a friend to vouch for him?

[Drainedsoul]

Fixed for spelling errors.

 

Missed this gem. The tuning for BC raids were such that you weren't skipping tiers and getting slots in raiding (especially progression raiding) guilds based on your server rep alone.

 

I don't see how people think that asserting things about another person's experience adds validity to their argument, especially when it's a shot in the dark, and likely to be wrong.

 

I did know several people in their guild, but they weren't my "buddy", they were just people I had played with because we had to group together because we couldn't just hit a button and grab people at random from other servers.

 

The first raid they took me on was an attunement run.

 

Having your foot in your mouth isn't very becoming, which is why you should try and avoid these wild assertions.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Drainedsoul

[TarikGur]

Everyone just stop talking to him, he wont get it. its giving me a headache. lol.

[Touchbass]

Alright, dinner/family time. Drainedsoul, thank you for your thoughts on the matter but lets gear this conversation towards a way that we can both win. Clearly they are adding a dungeon finder tool in the near future, we just don't know if it'll be automated or not. It's inevitable that these tools are going to be more of staple in the genre, lets find ways as to not punish your type of a groups gamer.

 

Cheers.