Help me be a better Shadow.

[Timberley]

Hi all, well I thought about this for a while (due to the sometimes savage nature of these forums), but thought I'd take the plunge and ask you, the community, how I (an MMO newbie) can be a better Infiltration-specced Shadow.

 

I'm concerned that whilst I can solo story bosses (mostly appropriate to my level, though I now seem to be sitting on Hoth at level 43, which seems a tad above-level), the group content, specifically Flashpoints, makes me feel somewhat less like damage-dealing machine.

 

For those that are interested, here's my current spec, and here's my current kit.

 

I've been reading Powerr's guide, and whilst it does offer some helpful pointers, it's mainly concerned with PvP, whereas I do PvE. I also read Astral's Shadow Handbook (I must update the pdf and send it to him soon), and I've got a fair idea as to my rotation. However, I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing.

 

As an example (during last night's FP Collicoid Game), I had to solo one of the lvl 40 elite hazard droids (team mates all behind gates and such in the hazard course) to get to the gate switch, my rotation looked roughly like this (started from cloaked and behind him):

 

Clairvoyant Strike x2 -> Project (saw 2x Circling Shadows stacked, and 2x Clairvoyant Strike icon up) -> Sabre Strike -> Force Breach -> Sabre Strike -> Mind Snap (he had some DoT ability starting up) -> Clairvoyant Strike -> Deflection (my health bar was at about 60% here) -> Clairvoyant Strike -> Project (both buff icons on my bar) -> Sabre Strike -> Force Breach -> Sabre Strike -> Force Stun -> Shadow Strike (I had run behind him at this point) -> Spinning Strike -> Sabre Strike -> Clairvoyant Strike.

 

And then he died. It's possibly not exact (I may have forgotten something in the ordering), but that was pretty much it. am I doing anything wrong here? Is there anything extra I should be doing to increase my damage output?

 

Also, regarding my kit, which is better to stack in the mods: Critical rating, power, alacrity, or accuracy? Also, should I get Force Wielder or Resolve armouring, and other mods?

 

In short; am I doing anything wrong? Why do I feel like I'm not as good as others? What am I missing?

 

Tim

 

Edit - Spelling!

Edited February 7, 2012 by Timberley

[eldisper]

I would experiment on your tree a little ,cookie cuter advice on trees is mostly by people that have not experimented, but only showing what some or most people are using.

I went more of a tank type tree and no I dont have the points to make it to the top of the tree but I am happy with the survival ability and decent damage.

The stats in order of importance are as follows with the most important first going to least:

willpower,endurance,power,forcepower,alacritty,crit ------ the reason I put crit last is that it is supported by forcepower and alacritty, however I would experiment with crit before forcepower as I have not seen much information on crit.

Those are my suggestions dont be afraid to try out different stats and order. I believe that will help. one more thing use force breach as much as possible. In my opnion it is the main stay of this class.

Edited February 7, 2012 by eldisper

[Timberley]

Ah right I see. The mods thing is mainly what has me confused. Thanks for clearing that up. I shall experiment with adding in some more power and alacrity mods to see what effect they have. Thanks for answering.

 

Tim

Edited February 7, 2012 by Timberley

[Kitru]

The stats in order of importance are as follows with the most important first going to least:

willpower,endurance,power,forcepower,alacritty,crit

 

First off, you're forgetting surge, which is amazingly useful, and, secondly, you don't really know what you're talking about:

 

Endurance shouldn't be stacked above anything. It's a largely worthless stat, even for tanks, since you get more than enough by taking any gear. If you have the option between getting 10 Endurance and 5 of anything else, go for the 5 of anything else.

 

Alacrity is pretty much worthless for Shadows. It reduces your cast time without affecting GCD or *anything else*. Since no DPS Shadow should ever be hardcasting *anything*, Alacrity should be considered even less valuable than Endurance since Endurance at least makes you marginally tougher; Alacrity does absolutely nothing (high level tank Shadows cast TK Throw, but, even then the contributions are negligible since it's only used once every 20 secs or so).

 

Force Power (and its mirror Tech Power) is a stat that is only present on main hand and offhand items specifically to provide the equivalent benefits of Weapon Damage to Force attacks (or Tech attacks) since those attacks do not benefir from Weapon Damage. The value of this is determined *exclusively* by the rating of the item, which is determined by the Hilt slot (for moddable items). You cannot "stack" Force Power or prioritize it on gear any more than you can prioritize weapon damage or armor values.

 

The reason why there isn't really a preferred prioritization for DPS Shadows is because it's all really determined by personal preference: Power increases your damage across all situations, Crit increases your damage in but is very variable (of course, it also has tangential benefits to both DPS Shadows since they have additional benefits on crits with many of their abilities), and Surge only helps when you have a lot of Crit. In essence, much like Shadow tanks stack their mitigation stats according to a priority of (Defense)>Absorb>Shield>(Defense) based on a preference for Defense, DPS Shadows (since they have additional value out of Crit) have a priority of (Power)>Crit>Surge>(Power) based largely on your preference for Power. If you like steady damage, you want to place Power first; if you prefer bursty damage, you place it last.

[Bilirubin]

Does this mean Shadow tanks shouldn't build up on crit or surge, or should prefer defense mods to offence?

[Kitru]

Does this mean Shadow tanks shouldn't build up on crit or surge, or should prefer defense mods to offence?

 

It depends on if you plan on doing PvP or PvE. In PvE, a Shadow tank wants mitigation stats and honestly shouldn't really care much about Crit, Surge, Power, or Alacrity. In PvP, since a vast majority of damage doesn't give a damn about your Defense rating, Shield rating, or Absorb rating, Shadow tanks should stack Surge and Power (since Project is auto-crit).

[Bilirubin]

Was talking about both, thanks for making the distinction for me.

AstralFire stacks crit and surge, and I think he is a 31/0/10? Well, if nothing else it gives me a target to build towards with my second set of clothes.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Bilirubin

[eldisper]

I did not mention surge correct that is more of a healing stat imo, also I did not write endurance as first stat. I wrote willpower, may want to read again. hmm I think I was trolled.

I advocate experimenting as at this point in time there has not really been any theory crafting,So if I or others disagree with a wall of text please do not be so eager to try to cause desention. Thank you

Edited February 7, 2012 by eldisper

[Kitru]

I did not mention surge correct that is more of a healing stat imo, also I did not write endurance as first stat. I wrote willpower, may want to read again. hmm I think I was trolled.

 

You weren't trolled largely because I simply don't troll people. I correct them when it's pretty obvious they shouldn't be talking about the topic at hand in the first place which is pretty true considering you're post.

 

I also never acted as if you stated that Endurance should be the top stat to stack. You stated that it should be stacked above any of the secondary DPS stats (crit, surge, alacrity, or power) according to your priority list. I stated that you got it wrong because Endurance should even be *on* that list, must less prioritized immediately after Willpower and above any of the offensive secondary stats.

 

Surge is also not really a decent or useful healing stat since, as a healer, you want to have more reliable healing rather than burstier healing. Bursty healing is generally worthless because most of that is converted into overhealing. Seriously, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd be able to understand this.

[eldisper]

Have a nice day and remember opinions are opinions. edit I love ignore it quiets the mind.

If anybody has solid theory crafting please let me know,last time I checked there was no battle log.

Edited February 7, 2012 by eldisper

[AstralFire]

Yeah, I favor crit moreso than power because Potency TK Throwing at near 100% crit is amazing. And I don't always wait for Particle Acceleration to Project.

[Bilirubin]

Yeah, I favor crit moreso than power because Potency TK Throwing at near 100% crit is amazing. And I don't always wait for Particle Acceleration to Project.

 

Played a bit this am...and having HS proc on use of Slow Time is AWESOME.

[Timberley]

Thanks for the answers guys. I was hoping Kitru would come in and give us a wall of text, as usually it does a good job of making things easier for simpletons like me to understand (note - usually).

 

In many ways, I'm aiming to increase my damage across all attacks, with bonuses when they crit and/or various procs come up. So, if I read you rightly Kitru if a quest reward (let's say) gives me a choice of enhancements (or mods, or whatever) then I should be looking for ones that give me additionals in terms of Power then Crit?

 

Tim

Edited February 8, 2012 by Timberley

[Reii]

Kitru is right, eldisper just can't take criticism.

[Bewoulff]

First off, you're forgetting surge, which is amazingly useful, and, secondly, you don't really know what you're talking about:

 

Endurance shouldn't be stacked above anything. It's a largely worthless stat, even for tanks, since you get more than enough by taking any gear. If you have the option between getting 10 Endurance and 5 of anything else, go for the 5 of anything else.

 

 

I have to concur with this. Endurance is abundant on my shadow without even trying. So I try to focus on the other stats that are harder to get. But because of that I think what eldispar meant was the highest stats. In even going for mainly the other stats endurance is still around second highest. Unless I'm doing it wrong.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Bewoulff

[Powerr]

Elites are not easy pre-50. If you are leveling up in infiltration you are fighting an uphill battle. Other than that there is one major flaw in your rotation, use project then spam force breach immediately after you hit the project key, your project and FB will hit simultaneously and cause big burst.

[Amos_Umbra]

Ya, I'm really starting to come around to Powerr's view on the project delay. I run the 31/0/10 build so two stacks of HS with PA up is my prereq for bursting and it is amazing. If you have fast fingers and good keybinds you can pop your spinning kick (or not), pop your surge or Ex adrenal, hit your project, pop your FP then immediately hit ST (seems to crit better for me) into a TKT. After the relatively small damage numbers the target has taken from me building my procs, they usually panic when I dissolve 3/4 of whats left of their health bar in 2 or so GCDs. They never see it coming from a tank spec.

 

For Inf spec solo pve I build my normal two stacks from CS and a proc for shadow strike, then low strike into shadow strike, then go into Powerr's Rotation of Doom®.

 

As to the OP, if Kitru says something about shadow tanks I just do it (not kidding). He knows math stuff. MATH STUFF!

Edited February 8, 2012 by Amos_Umbra

[eldisper]

Lets talk more about mods on dps you should rarely if ever go for crit as it is just a proc, you want sustained dps which power,and forcepower will give you, alacritty or (haste) is always rated above crit as it gives you a steady stream of damage and more chances to proc crit.

My order of priority stands true also there is no battle log at this moment so theory crafting should be disregarded at this point.

"As to the OP, if xxxxx says something about shadow tanks I just do it (not kidding). He knows math stuff. MATH STUFF!"

There is little math since there is no battle logs all is just conjecture.

Ok in regard to itemization for dps I will always pick willpower,endurance (they are on gear),followed by power then forcepower then alacritty with crit being the last for sustanined dps These are on mods or heirloms sometimes listed as extra on gear. If you want burst dps I would choose crit but not to the expense of power,force power, Think of crit as icing on the cake. Endurance is usually on the gear you choose , which should be dependent on the spec you are playing, and since gear has endurance on it . the choice of gear for dps should be willpower first,endurance ,that is a given and holds true to priority list.

In sumatation stats in order of importance is as follows for dps, willpower,endurance,power,forcepower,alacritty,crit, on speciality items such as "heirlooms" power 1st for that extra punch (it is usually listed as an on use ability) meaning you must activate it, however always look for items that have will gain (this/that) without manual action on your part. does that make sense ? if not let me know, it would be akin to stims such as resolve where it becomes part of your stats. I am still a big proponent of experimentation untill

battle logs become available to theory craft. and I am sorry but one day of play on a very new class is simply not enough time to be an expert

Edited February 8, 2012 by eldisper

[eldisper]

Elites are not easy pre-50. If you are leveling up in infiltration you are fighting an uphill battle. Other than that there is one major flaw in your rotation, use project then spam force breach immediately after you hit the project key, your project and FB will hit simultaneously and cause big burst.

 

this person is right on , I would take his/her advice above others on this thread,

[Timberley]

Elites are not easy pre-50. If you are leveling up in infiltration you are fighting an uphill battle. Other than that there is one major flaw in your rotation, use project then spam force breach immediately after you hit the project key, your project and FB will hit simultaneously and cause big burst.

 

And the other person I was hoping to get an answer from! Thanks Powerr, that's good to know and something I'd not considered. I knew there was the Project delay, but I (foolishly) hadn't considered that hitting it with Force Breach immediately after triggering Project would do a major burst from double attacks.

 

I knew that Infiltration would be an uphill battle, and in many ways I'm revelling in it because it's forcing me to be accurate with my rotation and not do anything stupid, which should hopefully carry over into the Flashpoints and Operations.

 

Tim

[BroadStreetBully]

Have a nice day and remember opinions are opinions. edit I love ignore it quiets the mind.

If anybody has solid theory crafting please let me know,last time I checked there was no battle log.

 

As upset as you might be, Kitru is dead on. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings.

[Zeratulz]

As upset as you might be, Kitru is dead on. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings.

 

This. Kitru, AstralFire, and Powerr know their stuff...Don't be mad that their right and you're wrong.

[anstalt]

Lets talk more about mods on dps you should rarely if ever go for crit as it is just a proc, you want sustained dps which power,and forcepower will give you, alacritty or (haste) is always rated above crit as it gives you a steady stream of damage and more chances to proc crit.

 

I think you may want to revisit your stats and re-read the tooltip for Alacrity.

 

Alacrity is *not* haste. It doesn't affect the global cooldown between skills. The only thing it affects is cast timers.

 

For example, Mind Crush takes 2seconds to cast. If you had 50% bonus from alacrity, it would only take 1 second to cast.

 

With shadows, we hardly have any skills that have a cast time. There is mindcrush, telekinetic throw and force lift. The first should never be used unless you are using force technique and specced into balance for the instant cast free MC. The second should only be used if you are tank specced or you are using force potency. the final one doesn't affect dps...

 

so, that in itself makes the stat extremely weak for shadows. Add to this the fact that it is virtually impossible to stack alacrity high enough for it to have a noticeable effect and you now know not to ever take alacrity on a shadow.

 

 

both crit, surge and power give vastly superior bonuses to DPS than alacrity. As to which of those three are best to stack, I don't think anyone has done the maths yet. In PvP, take crit above everything else as critical hits ignore shield/absorb on tanks so that is a big bonus when using our melee attacks. Surge is only worth stacking once your crit is high enough. With power, I've not idea on the maths. So far it seems as if power is a very weak stat but thats only from my anecdotal evidence.

[BroadStreetBully]

I think you may want to revisit your stats and re-read the tooltip for Alacrity.

 

Alacrity is *not* haste. It doesn't affect the global cooldown between skills. The only thing it affects is cast timers.

 

For example, Mind Crush takes 2seconds to cast. If you had 50% bonus from alacrity, it would only take 1 second to cast.

 

With shadows, we hardly have any skills that have a cast time. There is mindcrush, telekinetic throw and force lift. The first should never be used unless you are using force technique and specced into balance for the instant cast free MC. The second should only be used if you are tank specced or you are using force potency. the final one doesn't affect dps...

 

so, that in itself makes the stat extremely weak for shadows. Add to this the fact that it is virtually impossible to stack alacrity high enough for it to have a noticeable effect and you now know not to ever take alacrity on a shadow.

 

 

both crit, surge and power give vastly superior bonuses to DPS than alacrity. As to which of those three are best to stack, I don't think anyone has done the maths yet. In PvP, take crit above everything else as critical hits ignore shield/absorb on tanks so that is a big bonus when using our melee attacks. Surge is only worth stacking once your crit is high enough. With power, I've not idea on the maths. So far it seems as if power is a very weak stat but thats only from my anecdotal evidence.

 

I believe power scales slowly but doesn't suffer from diminishing returns. It can be useful to normalize your damage per hit instead of having low normal hits and high critical hits when you stack crit/surge

[eldisper]

alacritty is equivelnt to haste(activation speed) bottom line . by the way my feelings are not hurt just giving accurate information and not conjecture, again one day on a spec doesnt make one an expert . Infact I do not consider anyone to be an "expert" on such a new class and game. Edited February 8, 2012 by eldisper