SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[HavenAE]

They've gone after the broadest possible gamer market for years now, and it's only bred a general subscriber with shorter and shorter attention spans. They've basically engineered themselves out of a genre almost at this point. The system is untenable atm.

 

 

And that's quite possibly why so many previous MMOs succeeded, that is MMOs before WoW.

 

Seems to me most MMOs prior to "the king" didn't open their doors to everyone, they didn't focus on the broadest spectrum. There was a collection of niche games that did very well for themselves without being the extreme of success. The problem being that everyone thinks the case of World of Warcraft is something that is reproducible, and it may not necessarily be the case. WoW is in many ways an anomaly in this industry. The game itself isn't all that different or far remove from it's predecessors. What World of Warcraft did that was different was infiltrate popular culture, Blizzard made it (relatively) "cool" to play an MMO.

 

Every other game developer seems to think it was a matter of accessability and broad spectrum appeal, when that's really only part of the equation.

 

As a result we see a lot of games who don't focus, and instead spread their resources too thin trying to snatch as many players as possible and what we end up with are mediocre, generic feeling games.

 

In the case of SWTOR, my problem isn't so much that it's hard to find a group, or the bugs, or all the feature people should think are already there. MY problem is this game has no personality to it. The little things, the flair that makes a game stand out is just simply not there.

Edited February 7, 2012 by HavenAE

[DarthKhaos]

Skill in EVE has nothing to do with skills trained. It only provides more capabilities, more unlocks if you will. The clever design about EVE's skill training is that everyone always has the potential to be on par with everyone else, no matter how much they play. Perfect design for PvP.

Rrriiiggghhhttt... So you're saying I can beat someone who has a lot more in game character trained skills for combat than me in PvP. You and I both know that's BS. You can't even scrape them. And guess what you're not catching up in the trained skills.

[Krelios]

To the OP's original point: I'm sorry but I just don't buy the argument that horrible grinds encourage socialization. Horrible grinds have gone the way of the dodo for a simple reason, players don't want them.

 

If you're stuck in Karana grinding kobolds for hours at a time, what are you going to talk about? General will be full of non-sequitor nonsense that has nothing to do with the game, which breaks immersion, which makes me want to turn off my chat. If anything, horrible grinds make me want to be less social and do something else that's actually fun while I do it (watch a movie, listen to the radio, etc.).

 

SWTOR has a great system of socialization already and a reason to do it (social points). Once they add in the public quests ala WAR that they've talked about there will be even more random participation with other players. I think this game has fostered a better sense of community than most recent MMOs (in large part because people aren't running endless dungeon queues or battlegrounds with people from other servers that they'll never see again). I remember the names of players I meet that make an impression (good or bad) and seek them out when I can.

[Grammarye]

Rrriiiggghhhttt... So you're saying I can beat someone who has a lot more in game character trained skills for combat than me in PvP. You and I both know that's BS. You can't even scrape them. And guess what you're not catching up in the trained skills.

We're getting a touch off-topic, but yes, absolutely true, I am saying that. A gang of week-old Rifters can and will be able to point & destroy a battleship. It can be done, it has been done plenty of times; compare with trying a gang of level 1s taking on a level 50 in a traditional design. There is no evasion of damage for higher levels etc. None of that exists. There is no catching up required. A level 5 skill for a month old player is the same level 5 skill regardless. My statement was entirely accurate, that extra skills enable extra unlocks, nothing more. More & different modules in your ship, more accuracy in your guns, etc. None of that changes that once trained, you have the same ability as any other player for the rest of the game in that skill.

 

That is the beauty of their system, when designed for PvP expressly, which is what EVE is about. It is not necessarily the best design for every system, but it's very well designed for what it does.

 

Skill trained != skill in PvP.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Grammarye

[Krelios]

(what I perceived to be the whiners' wet dream) a model where you basically are playing a single player game online with other people and occasionally group up, or socialize, or pvp to break the monotony.

As a fan of single player games and story-driven games, this is exactly what I want. I don't think you need to be condescending and call people whiners because they enjoy a style of play that you don't.

[GalacticKegger]

Honestly, it may seem harsh but -- if it's now economically unfeasible to provide the level of gratification and polish people expect at release for an MMO these days, it would be better to just not even go ahead with the project IMHO. And don't get me wrong, a lot of people DO have unrealistic and ridiculous expectations. But such is the nature of The Beast.

Ya, comparing the scope of the Star Wars universe to other MMOs might be a bit misleading. WoW and Rift could get away with whatever they wanted because they had nothing to conform to. WoW relied on Warcraft for lore and locations, but that's where their box ends. Rift was just plain fresh and had no box at all. Star Trek Online even had the freedom to make stuff up as they went as long as a Star Fleet commissions, captaining their own starship, Romulans, Klingons, phasers and the ability to "boldly go" were integral to gameplay. These are freedom of design luxuries BioWare does not have with an almost etched in stone Star Wars franchise.

 

BioWare chose to open up the entire Star Wars galaxy upon release, which by itself was a huge undertaking - perhaps too much in hindsight. Maybe they could have traded in a few planets for free space flight PvP or something. BW/LA was faced with a monumental challenge regardless of what they did or how they did it. While I am not defending BioWare on this because the game could have been released in better condition, I do fully understand what they are up against and can already see progress. For some that's not enough. For the "patient padawn" genre it is, which will easily be enough to foster and support the necessary improvements. Those who don't like where it's going will leave while those who do like where it's going will stay.

Edited February 7, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[AJediKnight]

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

I agree.

 

The hybrid, and even the hybrid that leans sandbox, really is the direction that MMOs should be headed in, as much as it will make a vocal minority scream in fury.

 

If I were designing an MMO from the ground up today, I'd be looking at a couple of things:

 

1) The trinity system isn't a realistic representation of combat. I'm not saying that everything should be a twitch system. However, if we were to envision a realistic approach to going out and fighting, say, a dragon, you're probably not lining up one or two huge, slow guys in plate armor to shout obscenities at the beast while 18 other people poke it in the behind with sticks and spells.

 

Real-life (and believable fantasy) combat relies on two mechanics -- avoidance, and mitigation, and the latter can only take you so far when that dragon lowers its forearm to crush you. Ergo, a bigger reliance on dodging and movement is needed. Additionally, all members of a group should be required to be more self-reliant about their own survival -- the age of the dedicated healer, whose sole job is to stand behind the lines showering players with mystical white light -- needs to come to a close. Not only do healers remain a woefully underplayed class in every theme park MMO, they a) lack believability, and b) lack an epic feel for a majority of gamers. Personally, I look at MMO healers as cads who would rather stare at a series of bars all game than actually swing their sword, and I am hardly alone in this. I would never play one, and that's never going to change.

 

2) The rise of social media has made gaming far more popular than it ever was before, but not all gaming appeals to all people. The thing about MMOs is that their original intent was to allow gamers to live their story in fantastic environs. But not everyone's story need revolve around combat -- a lot of people might get their kicks out of homesteading, farming, milling, weaving, serving as a castle steward, a politician, etc.

 

The problem with themepark games is there really is only one avenue to power, and it involves slugging it out in combat, either with players or PCs. In this sense, the 'promise' of the genre has been betrayed, and folded into a single, generalized mechanic -- kill or quit. When I look at the rampant success of social games that involve no combat -- titles like The Sims and Farmville -- I see a vast, untapped resource of potential MMOers who might pay $15 a month to own, say, a tavern, or an inn, or work as a famous musician. And if you did a good enough job integrating all these working parts into a system where they were all required for a faction to prevail in warfare, then I really think you'd be talking about the game that would be the 'next WoW.'

 

3) Finally, there is a lack of personal investment and personal loss in game worlds that is draining the life out of the genre. An example of personal investment could be anything: from a house that you own in a town, to a small fort that you and a few friends defend, to a starship crewed by an entire guild.

 

Let's look at WoW: when you go into an Alterac Valley and you lose after 25 minutes, what happens? Are the Frostwolves finally driven from Alterac once and for all? Are the resources of the valley now directed to the benefit of the Alliance? Does anyone even give a damn who wins or loses? The thing about instanced everything; about a game world that neither rewards nor punishes for victory and defeat, is that you wind up with a lot of people who don't really give a crap what happens anywhere.

 

In SWG, players could build towns, fortresses, etc. And if those bases -- which you had worked hundreds of hours to earn -- were destroyed by the enemy, they were gone. You'd have to go farm up another one. Now, the 'modern MMOer' might find such a concept ludicrous, but, if done correctly, loss can actually spurn an increased sense of investment in the gameworld. If my little fort gets torched, I am a) going to defend the hell out of my next one, and b) want to get revenge on the people who did it. When you lose a WZ, do you really sit around brooding about the fact that the Imperial transport on Alderaan got shot down? Do you mourn the deaths of the hundred or so invisible NPCs who manned that ship? Of course not. You don't care, and the game doesn't even want you to care.

 

In our fictional MMO, let's say you and your guild stumble onto a narrow valley, surrounded on three sides by high mountains, and fed by a fast-flowing river. There is land to till, and space enough for several villages. You set about ordering the land immediately, but as your investment in the region grows, you begin to worry increasingly about jealous outsiders who would raid or conquer your budding kingdom. You build a series of outlying forts to warn of oncoming armies, and then construct a mighty citadel in an easily-defensible high spot. It has taken a lot to accomplish all this, and maybe, one day, you'll lose it all. But you'd fight like hell to prevent that from happening.

 

Would you fight like hell to avoid queuing up for Boarding Party for the thousandth time? I think not.

 

---

 

And there you have it. I don't believe sandbox MMOs are the future -- people require a degree of structure. There will always be a large crowd of folks who like to raid, and like mindless PvP, and don't derive any enjoyment out of the non-combat elements that the genre could offer. But as a game designer, I would be looking to incorporate all crowds, and I think there's room enough in these games to please everyone.

 

The problem is that the investors behind these $100 million dollar goliaths are only concerned with the bottom line, and as they see it, 'if Blizzard did it, so can we.' The problem is, 'Blizzard did it' 7 years ago, and even if the genre hasn't moved on, people have. People have learned to burn through content far faster than it can be released; people have learned to race to the level cap, only to find that the bulk of the game's resources have been squandered on the shortest part of the game. It is a system that cannot endure forever -- it should only take one $100 million dollar MMO flop to call the system into question, yet in the past 5 years, we've seen game after game tank when the 'tried and true' method failed to prove lasting.

 

The first major company to realize this, and to design a game that lets go of so many of these dusty old habits and design a quality, hybrid product, is going to make WoW -- even at its height -- look like a complete joke.

[adamqd]

definitely need some sandbox elements to get my sub back, If we had Appearance tab, housing, free roam space flight, less confined linear story leveling. and a Barber shop lol

[RycheMykola]

Arena net is taking those risks. Check it.

 

Guild Wars 2 hasn't released yet.

 

The ironic thing, the same people crying for the sandbox type MMO's are the first ones to complain that there is nothing to do then.

[Kalfear]

Your constant promotion of GW2 is getting annoying. This is SWTOR board.

 

Go to a board about GW2 if you want to post about it all day.

 

Its the same everywhere else

 

GW2 fans (all 10 of them) have been spaming forums trying desperately to get some buzz for their game!

 

Soon it releases and dies and we will then hear about the next F2P/B2P game thats going .....*snores*. Oh sorry dozed off there for a sec.

 

As fopr Secret World, the more I find out about this game, the less interested I am.

 

I heard of it a year ago, signed up for newsletter, was really interested.

And slowly per every update my interest has failed.

Horrible graphics, lack of direction in content from everything they shown.

 

Yes it looks more open, very reminisent of FO3 where you run around shooting stuff and, well you run around shooting stuff, then you shoot stuff, and you might shoot stuff, you can also shoot stuff.

 

Fact of matter is if you hear anyone claiming themepark design is dead. You are just reading a post by someoine who wants what they want and cant seperate their desires from whats good for the industry/genre.

 

The whole sandbox open design has come and gone and wasnt received well at all.

 

Now TOR went to rigid to be sure. They need areas were players can just go kill stuff with out the story. But its just a small addition, not a grand remake, to acheive that.

 

OP is correct that TOR is dieing the death of a 1000 paper cuts.

 

But the feedback they asking for isnt going to solve the problem as players always put their wants and desires ahead of the game and genre. And more often then not those wants and desires are not the patern changeing solution they claimed to be by the players.

 

As SWG found out, quite often the changes the players want have a negative effect over all!

 

The CU, NGE, all the changes that get lambasted by the SWG CORE players were all player suggested changes.

 

Bioware, EA, all of them either need to live and die by their vision or stop looking to the masses and talk to truely experienced people who been around since the start of the genre and been critiquing the genre along the way. Those people that know what works and where and why over time. Not just last 7 years, not just last 12 years, not just last 16 years, but the full 21 year history.

 

Not alot of them around to be honest but they are still out there.

 

TOR got so many things right that you dont need a full on redesign to correct the game long term. But you also dont need to waste time and energy on things that will have no lasting positive effect.

[adamqd]

The ironic thing, the same people crying for the sandbox type MMO's are the first ones to complain that there is nothing to do then.

 

Irony yes, it is also however, an assumption. Sandboxes are for people to do what they want to do, not what a writer has placed out for them. I'm sure TOR is great for the COD generation, and RPG fans, but I play MMO's for customization and character investment and individuality, I'm also a massive Star Wars fan. So what I though was my dream MMO, turned out to be a themepark RPG with multiplayer. I'm glad folks love it, it just sucks I dont.

[MrTijger]

definitely need some sandbox elements to get my sub back, If we had Appearance tab, housing, free roam space flight, less confined linear story leveling. and a Barber shop lol

 

Odd then that none of what you mention has anything to do with a sandbox.

[ShaftyMcShaft]

Theme-park can work just fine...the problem is BioWare forgot to put in the rides.

 

Once you hit 50, it's pretty much over. The "hard mode" FPs and Ops are not at all hard, and you can have "experienced the content" AND acquired all the loot in just a week or two. After that the theme park is shut down.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ShaftyMcShaft

[adamqd]

Odd then that none of what you mention has anything to do with a sandbox.

 

I said sandbox elements, and I said my personal preferences within a Sandbox. the worlds are beautiful, its just you're dragged around them in a cable-car, looking like every other character of your class and level, then it dumps you out at the end. a Sandbox is far more than fact that its a free-roaming world.

Edited February 7, 2012 by adamqd

[Doamy]

-Post content removed- Edited May 6, 2012 by Doamy

[Emeda]

This is so true it's funny. The majority of gamers just don't know what they want. They want innovation and something different but if it doesn't have A or B from game X or Y they say the game sucks. Games would come out trying something new and they would not tough it out with them while they iron out the wrinkles with the concept with player input. They quickly jump ship, that is if they even boarded in the first place.

 

They also don't want the best game they want the most popular.

 

Your talking about the casuals right. Because everything you just said is what the so called casuals do.

 

WoW didnt start catering to the casuals when it was released. Maybe it wasnt as hardcore as another game but they still didnt cater to them. Instead they made it cater to all players be it hardcore or casual. Thats what made it grow and grow into what it was. Everyone had something to do so everyone could play the game. Casual players could level up and do 5 mans and there were always people that also need to do that also. players could do the medium raids of AQ 20 MC BWL and then the elitest could do their Cthun and Naxx. Again there was something to do no matter who you were.

 

Then it all started to go downhill at the end of TBD. The day they lifted attunements for BT is the day that WoW started its own downfall. That was the start of the everyone deserves what anyone can get without putting in the effort.

[ActionJim]

I agree.

 

The hybrid, and even the hybrid that leans sandbox, really is the direction that MMOs should be headed in, as much as it will make a vocal minority scream in fury.

 

If I were designing an MMO from the ground up today, I'd be looking at a couple of things:

 

1) The trinity system isn't a realistic representation of combat.

 

2) The rise of social media has made gaming far more popular than it ever was before, but not all gaming appeals to all people.

 

3) Finally, there is a lack of personal investment and personal loss in game worlds that is draining the life out of the genre.

 

I've been reading this thread today and a lot of it comes across as complaining to me.

 

However, the ideas you've illustrated here are thought provoking and inspiring. Every single one of these ideas is something that should be implemented into this game and any other purporting to be a MMORPG.

 

My only experience with MMO's previous to this was DCUO, which is much more combat inherent, imo, and STO, which I discarded because it lacked features like you've discussed here, which to me, are essential in an Star Trek universe, because the focus of it was always much more diplomatic. In Star Wars, where the movies are always during conflict heavy periods of wars, it makes sense to have a combat-centic gameplay style. I didn't really realize at first how much more this game could be.

 

I really hope BioWare reads this and tries to implement this into TOR, as I would love the chance to expand my characters into other aspect of their lives, and create non-combat based characters as well.

[sevenex]

Great post! I miss sandbox and I miss having a longer leveling up process. I get that the super fast leveling, themepark MMO is what is popular right now, but I'm hoping (and apparently not alone) that there is a bit of a retro gaming wave coming up.

 

I have 2 50s. That's insane. It's incredibly too fast and what it is doing is making me want to stop playing. I want a game that's about the journey not the destination.

Edited February 7, 2012 by sevenex

[Ansultares]

It's not the end of themepark, any more than the TOR voiceovers mark the end of text-based questing.

 

But it's the most extreme example of themepark I've ever seen, and developers will probably shy away from developing a game this bound by rails.

 

Really, though, the next mega title will feature a world detailed enough to survive as a sandbox, with extensive themepark questing tacked on top (possibly including VO class quests); basically, WoW.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Ansultares

[HansoSoloo]

100% agree on OT.

[wifeaggro]

The truth is theme parks are easier to make. the MMO veteran is becoming more and more disenchanted with Theme parks. we hit end game extremely fast feel very little attachment to your main chr and have lvl'd so fast you make no new friendships. It is overly Obvious TOR aimed its game at a new audience for retention and used the veteran as a sales booster. TOR's end game does not have longevity past 90 days for a casual veteran. It needs to expand and do it fast to hold the interest of the traditionlist player. Story was awesome but at the end of the day i feel like a walked a long tunnel that ended on a space station. Flash points feel like ive just joined a diablo run with some buddies.

[fujeo-finel]

It's not Bioware's fault if someone power-levels to 50 then complains there's nothing to do.

[Dee-Jay]

You join a game for it's content/

 

You stay because of the friends you made.

 

 

 

Social ties is what keeps people playing an MMO, even years after it's pinnacle.

 

Blizzard unfortunately has set itself upon a path with WoW to place convenience above all other design-doctrines, undermining the social element of an MMO in more than one case.

 

Sure, this made the MMO super-accessible, but also very easy to drop.

 

 

This is something Bioware should bear in mind for the future of their MMO.

 

 

 

On the note of Sandbox elements, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Sandbox elements are cheap to maintain and can provide months and months of enjoyment for players who get involved. Obviously you need a good concept but it would be unwise to ignore its potential.

[MrTijger]

 

Then it all started to go downhill at the end of TBD. The day they lifted attunements for BT is the day that WoW started its own downfall. That was the start of the everyone deserves what anyone can get without putting in the effort.

 

Except what you call downhill is what others call fun...the others are by far in the majority.

 

As for WoW going down, well, after 7 odd years the game looks and feels dated, what do you expect? And they still hold on to somewhere around 10 million subs, if thats your definition of going down then I imagine your vision isnt shared by the people who fund these games.

[Manakar]

I agree with you OP. I also grew up playing EQ.. The thing is, this is a new generation and they want instant gratification.. They dont care about meeting new people or being social beyond their small circle of friends.. the devs feed into this formula and the game is designed to facilitate those aspects.. Games in general are dumbed down these days and todays gamer thinks its a great thing.. Pretty soon its going to be SP while lvling and 4 to 5 people for end-game content, and the content while be easier and easier..

 

This generation will then complain about how dumbed down the genre had become and the new gamers will love it and say how great it is...

Edited February 8, 2012 by Manakar