SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[knightblaster]

The thing to remember about the "older" sandboxes is that they cost very little to make compared to a contemporary AAA MMO. Even Rift cost ~100m to make. With those kinds of costs, you don't want to be "aiming" for a "niche" market -- the ROI is too long given the capital required to make the game.

 

And, of course, there *have* been sandboxes made over the past several years by indie developers with smaller budgets. Darkfall and Mortal Online come to mind. And, of course, they suffer from the kinds of things that happen when your game doesn't have a bigger budget.

 

I think it will be a long, long time before we have a AAA sandbox MMO, to be quite honest. More likely, we're going to see things moving in the B2P/F2P direction, with cheaper development budgets, because the business model of trying to siphon off WoW's market is failing again and again and again.

[otakuon]

I am the perfect example of why the whole "bad community thing" is a joke. I just switched to Everquest 2 and that game is way more work than TOR.

 

It has text for quests (that's right, no voice overs!?! omg!) It's way better and more the way MMOs are suppose to be. Everquest 2 may have the old school text base for a lot stuff but the difference is it is ACTUALLY A GOOD MMO.

 

EA/BW is the problem, not the community. Make a game worth our time please.

 

Your are an exception.

 

I personally could never play EQ2 at this stage because it is too dated (and it is yet another game yet in the High Fantasy genre, which is another personally hang-up for me).

 

Look, I am not saying that TOR is the end-all, be-all of MMOs, far from it. And quite frankly, many people will find that it is not the game for them. Just like WoW ended up not being the game for me. They may be similar games, but they appeal (or don't appeal) to people in different ways. What I am saying, is that I do think TOR is an MMO worth supporting. For those of us who play MMOs as a hobby, a passionate hobby, but still just a hobby, we are getting a bit sick of the fair-weather, fly-by-night gamer crowd coming in and stepping all over our games and just contributing to the problems instead of working with the rest of us to fix them.

Edited February 17, 2012 by otakuon

[DarthMaulUK]

What developers and publishers havent learned is - that you wont beat WoW with a clone.

 

If you want to draw players away from WoW (or any other clone MMO), you need to offer something totally different.

 

By almost copying the WoW format - Bioware have and will shoot themselves in the foot. Server numbers are clearly dropping as players finish after their 30 days of play time without renewing. Mine is coming to an end on Monday and I wont be coming back.

 

If SWTOR had some sandbox elements like SWG did, then I am certain more would stay and more would join. Not everyone wants to run 'Flashpoints and/or dungeons' to earn crafting material - crafters do just that craft, whilst purchasing mats from those who enjoy doing all the killing - it worked a treat in SWG.

 

PvP raids should be welcomed and if a higher level player decides to spoil the fun, they should be turned into a level 1 chicken - like WAR did - that was a) funny b) brilliant.

 

With WAR, you actually felt part of a war, with the zones being captured, yielding faction buffs whilst under control.

 

Right now, I just cant see where or how SWTOR will grow and attract new users. Its such a shame for a game that I have followed from day #1 has turned out to disappointment me but for reasons I didnt expect.

[Cordelia]

If SWTOR had some sandbox elements like SWG did, then I am certain more would stay and more would join. Not everyone wants to run 'Flashpoints and/or dungeons' to earn crafting material - crafters do just that craft, whilst purchasing mats from those who enjoy doing all the killing - it worked a treat in SWG.

 

This is exactly how I feel. It has zero sandbox elements. I have played MMO's since the original Everquest, many of the major titles over the years, and I was always heavily into crafting. In fact, once I reached endgame level in a game I would raid but then spend a lot of time crafting. There are those of us who love that sort of thing, we love to make stuff lol. Here we can't do that, crafting is not fun.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Cordelia

[otakuon]

This is exactly how I feel. It has zero sandbox elements. I have played MMO's since the original Everquest, many of the major titles over the years, and I was always heavily into crafting. In fact, once I reached endgame level in a game I would raid but then spend a lot of time crafting. There are those of us who love that sort of thing, we love to make stuff lol. Here we can't do that, crafting is not fun.

 

I do agree that crafting in TOR could use some major improvements. It is going to be one of the major topics I will be brining up at the Guild Summit. Fortunately, BW is aware of this, and is already taking steps to significantly adjust crafting and make it more viable.

[Cordelia]

I do agree that crafting in TOR could use some major improvements. It is going to be one of the major topics I will be brining up at the Guild Summit. Fortunately, BW is aware of this, and is already taking steps to significantly adjust crafting and make it more viable.

 

Ah, that's good to hear. Glad to see someone considers it important too

[Amdarius]

I do agree that crafting in TOR could use some major improvements. It is going to be one of the major topics I will be brining up at the Guild Summit. Fortunately, BW is aware of this, and is already taking steps to significantly adjust crafting and make it more viable.

 

Cite??

[DarthMaulUK]

I think Bioware need to be brave and introduce Kessel as an open world, sandbox planet for crafters to mine and extract minerals, like in SWG.

 

And, of course have some beasts around to yield other important mats - come on Bioware, be brave before SWTOR becomes an empty themepark like in Left for Dead 2!

[phatmhat]

yes please i hope more ppl get bored of theme parked mmos. ive been annoyed with them since their creator wow.

 

if ppl went to disneyland as much as they played mmos (comparatively speaking) they would get bored of them too. disneyland keeps trying to up their content just like mmos but soon ppl get bored again. true true.

 

ppl need to wake up and mmo companies too that PPL ARE GETTING BORED OF THEME PARK MMOS.

 

anyway...op - you speak the truth.

[KiranK]

Since when have sand box MMOs dominated the market, ever? Sand box MMOs have always been the underdogs EVE Online has a small community and vast limitations due to its lack of shards. SWG is literally dead and never had a comparable player base to any other A list MMO. Why is everyone on this massive sand box MMO rant when the market has shown time and time again the theme park is clearly the way to go. Sand box MMOs are too unfriendly to casual and new players. They reward the dedicated and long term crowd far too much while not rewarding other players at all. That's the great fall of the sand box style of play. Until someone innovates a sand box style that can cater to the casual crowd, sand box MMOs will never be on top. I personally like theme park MMOs. They're not a second job, like sand box MMOs are. They let you play at your own pace. If you want to be dedicated, you can, but you aren't forced to.

[Amdarius]

Since when have sand box MMOs dominated the market, ever? Sand box MMOs have always been the underdogs EVE Online has a small community and vast limitations due to its lack of shards. SWG is literally dead and never had a comparable player base to any other A list MMO. Why is everyone on this massive sand box MMO rant when the market has shown time and time again the theme park is clearly the way to go. Sand box MMOs are too unfriendly to casual and new players. They reward the dedicated and long term crowd far too much while not rewarding other players at all. That's the great fall of the sand box style of play. Until someone innovates a sand box style that can cater to the casual crowd, sand box MMOs will never be on top. I personally like theme park MMOs. They're not a second job, like sand box MMOs are. They let you play at your own pace. If you want to be dedicated, you can, but you aren't forced to.

 

Sandbox MMO's dominated the market until WoW.. UO and EQ were very sandboxy, each in their own ways. Then SWG came along - sandboxy in an entirely different and great way.

 

Then WOW came along and brought all the casuals into the MMO-verse. These "casuals" just want to be able to log on for 30-60 minutes at a time, see a lot of progress in their level bar, never die, not have to deal with any in-depth crafting, and be able to solo everything so they don't have to waste any of their precious time looking for a group or talking to anybody.

[DarthMaulUK]

I personally like theme park MMOs. They're not a second job, like sand box MMOs are. They let you play at your own pace. If you want to be dedicated, you can, but you aren't forced to.

Themeparks force people to grind. If you play at your own pace, you will fall behind in the chase to get better gear. This is why the gold farmer is around today, to cash in on those cash rich but time poor players.

 

The problem with Themepark is there for all to see, and as the OP pointed out. Content is king. Bioware simply wont be able to keep pushing out 'new' content. Hell, even WoW just rehashed the same old mobs, gave it a different name/colour and released it.

 

Sandbox(or having an element) would allow players to do their own thing while waiting for any new content.

 

SWG had a solid user base at launch, considering broadband/PCs etc werent in mass numbers like today, SWG did well. The problem with SWG was that it had a steep learning curve, which they addressed way to late - then the downfall with the 'Star Warsy' feel with CU and the final nail - NGE.

 

But that managed to keep going for EIGHT years, as a PAID to play MMO. How long do you think SWTOR will last before it ends up F2P? The Summer 2012?

Edited February 17, 2012 by DarthMaulUK

[Dee-Jay]

What I mean by that (In a thread I'll write after I wake up when more people are on) is all those little issues with the game that you go "hmm this feels weird. this is bad. why did they do it this way?" etc.

 

Like all the time you spend walking through spaceports without even your speeder. How poorly designed the GTN Market window is set up. (options don't get saved when you switch categories. not being able to do a string search until you've picked the exact sub-category, windows closing on their own when you open another, etc. )

 

There is a breadcrumb at L50 to send you to Ilum, but none for Belsavis dailies. No guidance on anything to deal with operations, earning daily commendations, pvp rewards, etc. (Redacted) **I'm sorry didn't notice the ones at Belsavis. But not having them at Vaiken is still odd.** No explanation on what each of the ships in the Imperial Fleet is for asfaras interfleet transport is concerned. The whole system of getting warzone tokens and converting them to mercenary ones to then buy Champion bags for Centurion tokens and possible champion equipment, etc. is so convoluted and ugly ... I dunno.

 

I understand the limitations of time and budget constraints. But a lot of these issues show a gross lack of fundamental understanding of MMOs and the attention to detail that a great game experience entails. Stuff that doesn't come down to extra time -- but to proper initial design. They must have been consulting Mythic employees for MMO tips lol... big mistake.

 

I feel this way too.

 

I mean, the game is pretty solid, aside from the crappy engine.

 

 

But there are so many design decision that leave me scratching my head that make me wonder "who the hell made this design decision purposely"?

 

The PvP loot system is just the pinnacle of the iceberg as you pointed out. But then there's all the little things like auto-assigning loot in raids, gear tiers in PvE, Crew Skills, Ilum...etc.

 

It's like you have a bunch of ignorant buffoons in charge who haven't played an MMO in the past decade.

 

It's stuff like that, stuff any modern Gamer could point out to you within hours of playing the game, that really boggles my mind.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[Darth_Grissom]

Great post. This game is great for the story. I will probably enjoy 2 or 3 stories before I take a break. After that I can play Dragon Age again, or Mass Effect or even multi-box the old EQ with Mercs just for pleasure. The key is having a bunch of enjoyable games. This is one for me as I already loved to read anyway.

 

I played Ultima Online for 7 years with no breaks. I dont take breaks away from any MMORPG I play.

 

Some may ask "What about xbox, playstation 2 ((Lol i was the first one to get one at my school)) and other games.

 

The answer is simple. If 1 game has EVERYTHING you coul possibly do in it why play any others?

 

UO had tons of end game stuff to do. Action, Adventure, mystery, socialization, monopolys, everything!.

 

I played that game because I WAS my character. Everyone on my server role played. This was before there was different servers like rp, pve, and pvp. I had many ""in game jobs"" as I call them and it was actually Fun.

 

There was so much to do I didnt have time to play any other games but I was personally fine with that. Im paying a 15 doller a month sub, in my personal opinion, the mmorpg should have everytihing you need. Its a Virtual World. People are supposed to BE their toons.

 

SWTOR to be honest does not do that.It has "Some" thigns I like but it doesnt have anything else that "said other game" has.

 

Yes it has raiding and pvping. Does it have the building that minecraft does? No

 

Does it have the customization of my house that Ultima Online has? No

 

Does it have the socialization other then the two options we as players have at end game? No

 

A mmorpg that has theme park+Sandbox stuff to do at end game would be the perfect game and nothing would be able to beat it. Unless of course they made a better one.

 

The days of raiding and /r pvping and THATS IT, AND THATS ALL YOU GET TO DO! To me athat is a dead desiign after SWTOR. Not for anyone else, but for me at least.

[Cordelia]

 

A mmorpg that has theme park+Sandbox stuff to do at end game would be the perfect game and nothing would be able to beat it. Unless of course they made a better one.

 

This is the part that any game designer needs to see and realise that people are crying out for this.

[Rodobson]

This game is great. While it may indeed be more "Theme Park" than "Sandbox" that alone does not have any impact on how good the game is.

 

Yes the game has some flaws and bugs, and has plenty of room to grow and be improved. That is the case with any game of this nature, where it's development time and audience lifespan are the same.

 

This is all about managing expectations. People love Star Wars, but not everyone likes the same genres. Some people expected more, or something different than what it is.

 

I'll use myself as an example. When I was a teenager I had no issue with playing a game that had lengthy time investments for little gain, I simply had more time to play. Now as an adult with only a couple hours a day to play, I simply can't enjoy games of that manner. Game designers can't accommodate the type of players that chew through content at such a high rate. Those players should move from game to game, suspending subscriptions when they have had their fill of one game and return when new content is released.

 

I do not understand the mentality that gamers want to play a single game everyday. Variety is the spice of life. Playing just SWToR or any other MMO everyday for the rest of your life should not be a goal for a gamer, nor should it be a disappointment when a game has given you all it can.

 

I have not seen many people say they did not enjoy this game. The common complaint is that it was too short. That does not make it a bad game, and length is highly subjective. I myself have only got a single character to max level. I have 7 to go.

 

I just want people to be honest with themselves about their experience with this game, and try to be as realistic with their expectations as possible. The game can't be the be all end all, no game can. There is no Holy Grail of games. Games offer a set amount of experiences.

 

One thing to note, experiences impacted by game performance issues are excluded from this write up/ discussion. I am only referring to the game experience as intended and seen by the majority.

[Galafray]

On lotro it was codemaster first. Turbine later.

Lotro is still considered as one of the best MMO to date. Sandboxers and themeparkers have both content.

 

No it wasn't. Lotro is a Turbine game, Codemasters only hosted the European servers and ran customer Support (so much better than Turbine did) until the contract ran out and Turbine took back control and moved Euro servers to the USA - just in time for the Warner Brothers buyout which condemned the game to Microtransaction hell.

 

If I ever see the word 'shop' (as a microtransaction reference) in a SWTOR announcement, I'll cancel my sub immediately.

 

On your second point I'd have to agree wholeheartedly - at least as far as the initial release of Lotro (Shadows of Angmar) and the first expansion (Mines of Moria) were concerned. After that it all got a bit too 'on rails', with smaller areas to explore and nothing to find that quests didn't take you to (made all the worse when they abandoned the 'Fog of War' mechanic that obscured areas of the map that you hadn't discovered).

 

And that's the biggest thing that's missing for me in SWTOR - all these huge planets to explore - but nothing to find.... Yes there are datacrons, the occasional quest giver, but where are the unexpected dungeons, crashed starships etc. to explore?

[VorpalK]

I'm not saying this to be rude or saying this to troll even though some may disagree. However gamers need to realize that not every game they may be interested in is for them. If you don't like Themepark games don't play them. Some do and they will play it.

 

You don't HAVE to play SW:TOR no matter how much you want to play a Star Wars MMO. I want to play a Space Based MMO but EvE Online and Star Trek Online didn't do it for me so I am still waiting and NOT playing those.

 

Truth. I play many games. I don't expect any one of them to be all things.

[otakuon]

Cite??

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2417047#edit2417047

 

 

Major changes are currently on schedule for the next major content patch, such as extractable basemods (armoring, barrel, etc.) from purple items, critical crafting successes on orange outfits, more bind-on-equip schematic drops for artifice and other professions, increased relevance of augments, better reverse engineering chance, and other improvements. We want to create significant incentive for players to engage in the crafting economy – as provider of goods or supplier - without requiring players to take up a specific profession as a ticket into endgame.

 

Long term, our plan is to evolve Star Wars: The Old Republic’s game economy to a more player driven model, strengthen and improve the GTN and embrace the game’s extensive appearance customization throughout the game. We have a long list of improvements planned for that but we’re also anxious to hear from you. Feel free to use this thread to give us your feedback on the topic!

[KiranK]

Themeparks force people to grind. If you play at your own pace, you will fall behind in the chase to get better gear. This is why the gold farmer is around today, to cash in on those cash rich but time poor players.

 

And sand boxes don't? In EVE you spend more time farming ISK than you do anything else. PvP is an ISK sink. You either have to have an alt to spam lvl 4 missions or incursions or run anoms, all of which take way too much time. That takes way longer than grinding. I'm not fan of the grind system either, but sand box MMOs are infinitely worse at grinding.

[oakamp]

Sandbox MMO's dominated the market until WoW.. UO and EQ were very sandboxy, each in their own ways. Then SWG came along - sandboxy in an entirely different and great way.

 

Then WOW came along and brought all the casuals into the MMO-verse. These "casuals" just want to be able to log on for 30-60 minutes at a time, see a lot of progress in their level bar, never die, not have to deal with any in-depth crafting, and be able to solo everything so they don't have to waste any of their precious time looking for a group or talking to anybody.

 

completely wrong, UO is sandbox,

EQ is NOT.

sandbox MMO only dominated in UO age.

[knightblaster]

And sand boxes don't? In EVE you spend more time farming ISK than you do anything else. PvP is an ISK sink. You either have to have an alt to spam lvl 4 missions or incursions or run anoms, all of which take way too much time. That takes way longer than grinding. I'm not fan of the grind system either, but sand box MMOs are infinitely worse at grinding.

 

Actually what you need to do in EVE is be a player that started in 2003 or 2004, have a bunch of researched T2+ BPOs, and sell BPCs and T2 ships and gear at a good profit. Of course, the issue is most players don't have access to that.

 

Not all sandboxes are designed like EVE, though. SWG was a sandbox and you weren't grinding credits nonstop 24/7 to fund your PvP credit sink.

[Amdarius]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2417047#edit2417047

 

Ah, yet another Bioware "long term plan." No thanks. I'll come back if and when they ever live up to their claims, which would be a nice change.

[DarthKhaos]

I just want people to be honest with themselves about their experience with this game, and try to be as realistic with their expectations as possible. The game can't be the be all end all, no game can. There is no Holy Grail of games. Games offer a set amount of experiences.

They hated the game. That's why they played for 5+hrs a day every day. Yup. Game sucked and they were bored while spending ALLLLL that time playing.

[bizcuits]

Ah, yet another Bioware "long term plan." No thanks. I'll come back if and when they ever live up to their claims, which would be a nice change.

 

MMO's for the first year are always LONG TERM plans... When WOW first came out they were advertising siege weapons, honor systems and more... It took them awhile to get the finished product out. It is one of the enjoyable attributes of the MMORPG games, they are constantly updating, changing and adding new content.

 

I see nothing but good news from BioWare about future content, from more Warzones, to more planets, to better customized UI, to more craftable items. These aren't promises being made for fall or next winter, but for the next big patch that'll be out fairly soon.

 

The biggest problem y'all face is that a lot of people are failing to realize that as a vendor BioWare is trying to sale a product to more then one class of players. WOW was successful, because it was a jack of all trades and a master of none. There was a decent PVE, a decent PVP, a decent RP, a small sandbox feel... It was enough to keep many people sucked in for a while and was enough to usually bring back a lost player. It wasn't perfect, but it was enough.

 

I see potential in this game, because I see tons of stuff to do... POST-50 too...